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Thread: Wheelock Latin

  1. #1
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    Default Wheelock Latin

    I have been reading a great deal about Latin curriculum lately. Fun times here in Colorado! Anyway, I think that I agree with the philosophical perspective upon which Wheelock Latin is based, despite that fact that I believe that it is likely more poorly organized than Henle, and is probably more difficult for a novice learner. My child will get 3 years of Forms done before she would start it, so I am not sure if the problem would be as great for her. Does anyone use Wheelock in high school with success, or is it better left for college? I see that it was intended for college, whereas Henle was intended for high school. Why have you chosen Henle instead of Wheelock (other than that MPOA teaches it, which sounds like a great reason, btw)?
    JeJe Greer
    Mom to:
    Stella (6M in 2018-2019)
    Clara (SC3 in 2018-2019)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Hi JeJe,

    I can't speak to your Wheelocks question, but I wanted to encourage you in your concerns about your child getting through only three levels of the Forms.

    My daughter had completed only two levels of the Forms and was mid-way through level three when we enrolled her at a local Catholic high school. I enrolled her in Latin I. She was, and remained, the top student in the class, even though the style of textbook the school used was very different than she was used to. The rock-solid basis of the Forms, the philosophy of building Latin knowledge from the grammar up, has no compare. Honestly, MP's Forms series is the only one like it on the market today. No other Latin series tries to lay the foundation so solid that a student can go anywhere, in any Latin class they choose, and still "know what they know". Most Latin students are trying to "get through the chapter"!

    Starting with the Forms, it's a matter of eating the elephant one bite at a time.


    I've never regretted that she did not get through Fourth Form, which is a segue into translating anyway (closer to Latin II in most brick and mortar schools). It was the base she developed that made all the difference.



    BTW, Henle is a Catholic high school text. Wheelocks is more "secular college". It's a matter of flavor, level, and appropriateness, IMO.



    Jen
    DS, 25 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace), following in the family tradition of working for the US Navy

    DS, 23 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, working on Adulting

    DD, 20 yrs, Junior in Education at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC

    DS, 10 yrs, taking the summer off, then 6M plus Bookshark's Later American history pack

    All homeschooled.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Jeje,
    I'm curious what your overall hope is for Latin for Stella? If she's a rising sixth grader, you have so much time! Also, your path after Fourth Form doesn't have to be set at this time. My oldest two are in Third and Fourth Form and it's wonderful to see the "capstone" year of the forms and how well prepared my oldest is for Henle 2 and beginning Caesar next year. He sight-translated a long paragraph for me yesterday (a "lectio") while I ate breakfast. I tried to play it cool, but I was blown away! Unless your student will be enrolling in away school in ninth, I would encourage you to plan to complete the four forms as written. Level four is the capstone; the final chapter of the Latin grammar. There are four for a reason and the fruit is so good!

    Just my two cents!
    Festina lentē,
    Jessica P

    Fall 2018 7th MP Year, 9th Homeschooling
    Interweaving home, cottage school, & MPOA
    DS MPOA Henle 2, 9A
    DD MPOA 4th Form, 7A
    DD 4A
    DS 1st

    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School
    www.nashvillelatinschool.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    You are correct that Wheelock's was written for college students; it flies through the material, compared to Henle, which was written for high school students. The readings in Wheelock's are mixed from an assortment of authors. Henle on the other hand, prepares students to read Caesar as their first authentic Latin literature.

    This leads me to a very pragmatic reason for choosing Henle over Wheelock's. The AP Latin Exam tests the student on Virgil's Aeneid and Caesar's Gallic War. The Wheelock's text includes only one brief passage from Caesar. Anyone who may possibly take the AP exam later in high school should be aware of this weakness in the Wheelock's text.

    Henle Latin -- or the Forms -- provides a clear path of learning the basic grammar, reading Caesar in Henle Second Year, Cicero in Henle Third Year, and after that, Virgil's Aeneid (whether that is with Henle or in an AP prep class). And Henle Latin was written with humanistic insight and has the depth of thought typical of material that MP chooses for students.

    Best to you.
    Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie; 05-11-2018 at 09:34 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    When I started researching Latin programs 10 years ago, Henle also stood out to me as the best high school program. Now that my oldest is finishing up Henle First Year, I am more determined than ever for all five of my boys to get through the series. I own Wheelock's, but really I like Henle better. We only do First Form before moving on to Henle. But we do the 3 year sequence for Henle First Year instead of the new 2 year or taking 4 years to get through the Forms. Kid #2 will start Henle in July. Kid #3 will either do Latina Christiana II, or First Form slowly, before starting Henle as he is on the path now to start Henle a year earlier than his two older brothers. I briefly considered the new MP guide to get through Units I-V in a year instead of two. But I have the MODG syllabus that does that and I think it goes too fast. It does look like MP is no longer going to offer the slower paced guides.

    I admit we are just slower overall because mastery is our goal. But going slower hasn't held up my son as far as testing goes. He scored top 10% on the PSAT and hadn't even finished algebra 1. His verbal and math scores were nearly identical, too. And he had never taken a standardized test in his life and we did no test prep other than practice filling in bubbles. He isn't gifted, just slightly above average. I believe you have previously stated your child is gifted so her path may be very different. But I do believe this type of education can have extraordinary results with very ordinary children

    Kelly

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by generalsparky View Post
    It does look like MP is no longer going to offer the slower paced guides.
    Hello Kelly,

    Yes, we have permanently discontinued the guides for Units I-II and III-V. Normally, we would recommend that students young enough to need that pace instead use the Forms. However, for those who prefer the three-year Henle track, one could use the new Teacher Manual for Units I-V at half pace. For the last half of Henle, both the old Study Guide and new Teacher Manual cover Units VI-XIV in one year, so that didn't change.

    HTH!
    Michael
    Memoria Press

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Hello Kelly,

    Yes, we have permanently discontinued the guides for Units I-II and III-V. Normally, we would recommend that students young enough to need that pace instead use the Forms. However, for those who prefer the three-year Henle track, one could use the new Teacher Manual for Units I-V at half pace. For the last half of Henle, both the old Study Guide and new Teacher Manual cover Units VI-XIV in one year, so that didn't change.

    HTH!
    Thanks, Michael.

    It looks like from the sample of the new guide it is less open and go for the student. One of the appeals of using Henle was that I didn't actually have to do any instructing. For my oldest, he follows the guide on his own. I check his work and give the quizzes and tests. The new guides look more for the parent/teacher than for the student.

    I have hoarded the old guides so I am in good shape for all 5 kids

    Kelly

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by generalsparky View Post
    Thanks, Michael.

    It looks like from the sample of the new guide it is less open and go for the student. One of the appeals of using Henle was that I didn't actually have to do any instructing. For my oldest, he follows the guide on his own. I check his work and give the quizzes and tests. The new guides look more for the parent/teacher than for the student.

    I have hoarded the old guides so I am in good shape for all 5 kids

    Kelly
    Yes, the new manuals are designed more for the teacher, but we did leave the check boxes

    It sounds like you're all set, though. Deus vobiscum!
    Michael
    Memoria Press

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    JeJe, people do use Wheelock's for high school with success, but most of the folks I know of doing this are using an online class provider. I don't know of a homeschool-friendly (ie, friendly to a homeschool teacher who doesn't already know Latin) presentation of Wheelock's. If you do, please share!

    Without wishing to detract from this forum, or to introduce inappropriate content on a forum that is provided and paid for by the generous folks at Memoria Press, to answer your question I can say that several homeschoolers on the Well Trained Mind forum do Wheelock's using Lukeion as an online provider, and at least some do this successfully with gifted children in middle school grades.

    We finished most of 3rd Form Latin this year via the MPOA and will begin Lukeion's Latin 1 next year (though my child tested into their Latin 2 with his wonderful Form Latin background; after consulting with Lukeion, we decided to begin Wheelock's from the beginning so that he has a strong start and not a stressful one).

    We ourselves switched for a variety of reasons. One is that I wanted more years of post-Forms Latin instruction than Memoria Press teaches. Another is that I wanted instruction in classical (not koine -- or at least, not primarily or exclusively koine) Greek and cannot provide it myself while teaching other subjects. Lukeion offers classical Greek but MPOA does not, and it is nice to use just one online provider for all online classes to make scheduling easier.

    Thirdly, we teach that the earth is ancient and my children learn that evolution is an important element of understanding biology, and I follow a non-orthodox form of Christianity (my theology is essentially conservative Quaker). The Wheelock's materials, and the Lukeion instruction, do not assume a particular faith perspective and do assume empirical history/science: this was a minor but increasingly strained element in our interaction with the Forms materials and the MPOA.

    Lastly, when I saw that our Wheelock's provider uses Lombardo's translation of Homer for the children's first exposure to the epic in its entirety, I was overjoyed: that is our plan too!!!

    That said, I plan to have my younger child go through the Forms series, probably through Third Form or until he seems mature enough to switch to Wheelock's classes. The grounding is excellent, the MPOA instruction is excellent (we used it for Second Form and Third Form). And I'm a bit nervous about the switch, and since we aren't starting until next year, I certainly am not in a position to say how well it will work. But if you want more BTDT experience you could look around the Well Trained Mind forums, since there are people there who have used Wheelock's both with and without online support.
    Last edited by serendipitous journey; 05-11-2018 at 04:12 PM.
    Ana, mama to
    ds A, 6th grade
    ds N, 2nd grade

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by serendipitous journey View Post
    JeJe, people do use Wheelock's for high school with success, but most of the folks I know of doing this are using an online class provider. I don't know of a homeschool-friendly (ie, friendly to a homeschool teacher who doesn't already know Latin) presentation of Wheelock's. If you do, please share!

    Without wishing to detract from this forum, or to introduce inappropriate content on a forum that is provided and paid for by the generous folks at Memoria Press, to answer your question I can say that several homeschoolers on the Well Trained Mind forum do Wheelock's using Lukeion as an online provider, and at least some do this successfully with gifted children in middle school grades.

    We finished most of 3rd Form Latin this year via the MPOA and will begin Lukeion's Latin 1 next year (though my child tested into their Latin 2 with his wonderful Form Latin background; after consulting with Lukeion, we decided to begin Wheelock's from the beginning so that he has a strong start and not a stressful one).

    We ourselves switched for a variety of reasons. One is that I wanted more years of post-Forms Latin instruction than Memoria Press teaches. Another is that I wanted instruction in classical (not koine -- or at least, not primarily or exclusively koine) Greek and cannot provide it myself while teaching other subjects. Lukeion offers classical Greek but MPOA does not, and it is nice to use just one online provider for all online classes to make scheduling easier.

    Thirdly, we teach that the earth is ancient and my children learn that evolution is an important element of understanding biology, and I follow a non-orthodox form of Christianity (my theology is essentially conservative Quaker). The Wheelock's materials, and the Lukeion instruction, do not assume a particular faith perspective and do assume empirical history/science: this was a minor but increasingly strained element in our interaction with the Forms materials and the MPOA.

    Lastly, when I saw that our Wheelock's provider uses Lombardo's translation of Homer for the children's first exposure to the epic in its entirety, I was overjoyed: that is our plan too!!!

    That said, I plan to have my younger child go through the Forms series, probably through Third Form or until he seems mature enough to switch to Wheelock's classes. The grounding is excellent, the MPOA instruction is excellent (we used it for Second Form and Third Form). And I'm a bit nervous about the switch, and since we aren't starting until next year, I certainly am not in a position to say how well it will work. But if you want more BTDT experience you could look around the Well Trained Mind forums, since there are people there who have used Wheelock's both with and without online support.
    I had never heard of Lukeion. I love their main page quote: "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child." I think that sums up half of my educational philosophy. Their intro paragraph also resonates with me. In addition, I already felt strongly that the Wheelock program meets my philosophical expectations of why to study Latin very well. I really, truly thank you.
    Last edited by jejegreer; 05-13-2018 at 08:16 AM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by serendipitous journey View Post
    JeJe, people do use Wheelock's for high school with success, but most of the folks I know of doing this are using an online class provider. I don't know of a homeschool-friendly (ie, friendly to a homeschool teacher who doesn't already know Latin) presentation of Wheelock's. If you do, please share!

    Without wishing to detract from this forum, or to introduce inappropriate content on a forum that is provided and paid for by the generous folks at Memoria Press, to answer your question I can say that several homeschoolers on the Well Trained Mind forum do Wheelock's using Lukeion as an online provider, and at least some do this successfully with gifted children in middle school grades.

    We finished most of 3rd Form Latin this year via the MPOA and will begin Lukeion's Latin 1 next year (though my child tested into their Latin 2 with his wonderful Form Latin background; after consulting with Lukeion, we decided to begin Wheelock's from the beginning so that he has a strong start and not a stressful one).

    We ourselves switched for a variety of reasons. One is that I wanted more years of post-Forms Latin instruction than Memoria Press teaches. Another is that I wanted instruction in classical (not koine -- or at least, not primarily or exclusively koine) Greek and cannot provide it myself while teaching other subjects. Lukeion offers classical Greek but MPOA does not, and it is nice to use just one online provider for all online classes to make scheduling easier.

    Thirdly, we teach that the earth is ancient and my children learn that evolution is an important element of understanding biology, and I follow a non-orthodox form of Christianity (my theology is essentially conservative Quaker). The Wheelock's materials, and the Lukeion instruction, do not assume a particular faith perspective and do assume empirical history/science: this was a minor but increasingly strained element in our interaction with the Forms materials and the MPOA.

    Lastly, when I saw that our Wheelock's provider uses Lombardo's translation of Homer for the children's first exposure to the epic in its entirety, I was overjoyed: that is our plan too!!!

    That said, I plan to have my younger child go through the Forms series, probably through Third Form or until he seems mature enough to switch to Wheelock's classes. The grounding is excellent, the MPOA instruction is excellent (we used it for Second Form and Third Form). And I'm a bit nervous about the switch, and since we aren't starting until next year, I certainly am not in a position to say how well it will work. But if you want more BTDT experience you could look around the Well Trained Mind forums, since there are people there who have used Wheelock's both with and without online support.
    If we are not in a position to do an online class this year because I am leaving my job to homeschool full time, would you recommend sticking with First Form?
    JeJe Greer
    Mom to:
    Stella (6M in 2018-2019)
    Clara (SC3 in 2018-2019)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    My advice for a new-to-Latin sixth grader would always be First Form. Between the DVDs, teacher guide/key, pronunciation CD, and Q&A here on the forum, I don't think you can have more parent support for an at-home language program. I'm super biased though, because I teach First Form! My experience is that it's an outstanding course on how to learn to learn.

    Best wishes getting this year's plan solidified!
    Festina lentē,
    Jessica P

    Fall 2018 7th MP Year, 9th Homeschooling
    Interweaving home, cottage school, & MPOA
    DS MPOA Henle 2, 9A
    DD MPOA 4th Form, 7A
    DD 4A
    DS 1st

    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School
    www.nashvillelatinschool.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by pickandgrin View Post
    My advice for a new-to-Latin sixth grader would always be First Form. Between the DVDs, teacher guide/key, pronunciation CD, and Q&A here on the forum, I don't think you can have more parent support for an at-home language program. I'm super biased though, because I teach First Form! My experience is that it's an outstanding course on how to learn to learn.

    Best wishes getting this year's plan solidified!
    Do you teach it online? I'm hoping that someone decides to teach it on something like Delectare. And hoping that maybe MP starts a modern philosophy class so I can teach something there to be helpful,
    too!
    JeJe Greer
    Mom to:
    Stella (6M in 2018-2019)
    Clara (SC3 in 2018-2019)

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Wheelock Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by jejegreer View Post
    Do you teach it online? I'm hoping that someone decides to teach it on something like Delectare. And hoping that maybe MP starts a modern philosophy class so I can teach something there to be helpful,
    too!
    I teach it at our cottage school here in Nashville, but I learned it (and my two oldest kids learned it) straight from the DVDs in my living room. I think most families can get through Second Form at home with DVDs. Third Form, for me, is where you need a pro leading. I was able to "keep up" with my kids almost to the end of SF, but then I hit a wall because I simply couldn't invest the time they could to gain mastery. After that, we went online to MPOA. Latin is the only online course we do. One day I get through those Forms though! Two of my four kids have passed me!
    Festina lentē,
    Jessica P

    Fall 2018 7th MP Year, 9th Homeschooling
    Interweaving home, cottage school, & MPOA
    DS MPOA Henle 2, 9A
    DD MPOA 4th Form, 7A
    DD 4A
    DS 1st

    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School
    www.nashvillelatinschool.com

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