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Thread: SC Level B counting with numbers

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
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    Default SC Level B counting with numbers

    Our 7 yr old with low verbal autism is having a hard time with parts of the counting with numbers workbook.

    He seems to be having difficulty associating a number value with an object. (Ex, 1 cup, 2 cups, 3cups,etc.)

    He can count well (almost to 100) and recognizes numbers well, but when it comes to placing value he is lost.

    We practice counting with tactile objects (blocks, coins, food, etc). We actually count things all the time , I have always counted to him.

    He especially has trouble when he is asked to count objects in the box and then circle the correct number, or circle a certain number of objects and then tell how many are remaining. He will say what I say, but he is only parroting.

    I believe this has to do with executive function and working memory or processing, but I'm not sure how to proceed here.

    Any thoughts?
    Thx,
    Julie

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Noth Park Colorado
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    848

    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    My son struggled with counting things and then circling a certain amount. He got lost and confused.

    I had him mark each item as he counted with a slash. Then when we got to seven, or whatever, I would stop him and remind him how high we were counting. Have we counted 7 cups yet? Let's check. Yes, we marked 7 cups, let's circle the seven cups we have counted.

    It was easier for him to visualize where those seven cups were because they had marks on them. It might be easier if he marks with a crayon or colored pencil, it will stand out more than pencil markings.

    Hope that helps, sounds like you're doing a great job of counting everyday objects throughout the day to give this task relevance to real life.
    Married to DH for 13 years. Living the rural life in the Colorado mountains

    DS10- Simply Classical 4 / Grade 3 Classic Core, DD8- Grade 2 Classic Core, DD 5- Simply Classical C

  3. #3
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    Sep 2014
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    Denver Area, CO
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    1,857

    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Colomama View Post
    My son struggled with counting things and then circling a certain amount. He got lost and confused.

    I had him mark each item as he counted with a slash. Then when we got to seven, or whatever, I would stop him and remind him how high we were counting. Have we counted 7 cups yet? Let's check. Yes, we marked 7 cups, let's circle the seven cups we have counted.

    It was easier for him to visualize where those seven cups were because they had marks on them. It might be easier if he marks with a crayon or colored pencil, it will stand out more than pencil markings.

    Hope that helps, sounds like you're doing a great job of counting everyday objects throughout the day to give this task relevance to real life.
    Agreed! We used a yellow highlighter in just this way with my son. This ability is called “one-to-one-correspondence” (understanding that one thing equals 1; two things equal 2; and so forth) and it can be challenging for kids on the Spectrum to grasp. I second: it sounds like you’re doing a fantastic job. Just keep at it. It takes awhile for this skill to cement in some children. Don’t give up!
    Boy Wonder: 10, MP2/SC4 (Special Needs)
    Joy Bubble: 8, MP2 (Special Needs)
    Snuggly Cowboy: 6, MPK
    Sweet Lightness: 2, Reverse-Engineering Specialist

    “Have no fear of moving into the unknown. Simply step out fearlessly knowing that I am with you, therefore no harm can befall you; all is very, very well. Do this in complete faith and confidence.”
    ~Pope St John Paul II

  4. #4
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    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Thank you both. I should have mentioned we are currently marking with a colored crayon as we count but I will try the highlighter idea.

    Two follow up questions.

    1..Do you use the crayon or highlighter to circle the correct number or write the correct number or do you switch back to pencil?

    2...When counting aloud, do you say the item each time? 1 cups , 2 cups 3 cups..etc.?

    I ask number 2 because , although this is highly important to placing the value to the object, it seems to be where I lose him.

    J is so low verbal I am still telling him to say almost everything and he parrots back.

    For instance when counting it would go like this.
    Me="Say 1"
    J= "1"
    Me= "say cup"
    J= " cup"
    And so on...
    (Btw.. I do a quick count of the items to begin with 3xs so that he understands we are counting items before making him repeat orally.)

    This slow process of orally counting while teaching him to look at the page and point with his finger sometimes becomes very drawn out. He is needing to process 3 different ways here and because of that the focus on the numerical attachment is getting lost.

    Am I making sense here?

    Thanks so much for all the help anytime I ask. I just love it here!!
    Julie

  5. #5
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    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Juliepauldesign@gmail.com View Post
    Thank you both. I should have mentioned we are currently marking with a colored crayon as we count but I will try the highlighter idea.

    Two follow up questions.

    1..Do you use the crayon or highlighter to circle the correct number or write the correct number or do you switch back to pencil?

    2...When counting aloud, do you say the item each time? 1 cups , 2 cups 3 cups..etc.?

    I ask number 2 because , although this is highly important to placing the value to the object, it seems to be where I lose him.

    J is so low verbal I am still telling him to say almost everything and he parrots back.

    For instance when counting it would go like this.
    Me="Say 1"
    J= "1"
    Me= "say cup"
    J= " cup"
    And so on...
    (Btw.. I do a quick count of the items to begin with 3xs so that he understands we are counting items before making him repeat orally.)

    This slow process of orally counting while teaching him to look at the page and point with his finger sometimes becomes very drawn out. He is needing to process 3 different ways here and because of that the focus on the numerical attachment is getting lost.

    Am I making sense here?

    Thanks so much for all the help anytime I ask. I just love it here!!
    Julie
    Yes, you are making perfect sense! My son did not speak — not even “Mama” — until he was about 5 years old. I remember these days very well!

    1) Don’t get hung up on pencil vs crayon. Just do what’s easiest and gets his attention best. Children with low verbal abilities are often intensely visual. So a highlighter works well to get and keep their attention for the task at hand. As a bonus: You can write the answer in highlighter and he can trace it with a pencil afterwards.

    2) Basically, my script always went like this.
    “How many pencils are there?” (Gently take my son’s hand and help him make a pointer finger with my hand over his) “Let’s count pencils: one, two, three, four, five.” (Short pause) “Five pencils. Good.”
    Then we would repeat the counting, but with the highlighter. “How many pencils are there? FIVE!” (Color or circle picture of pencils as you count again) “One, two, three, four, five. FIVE pencils.”

    I kept mostly the same script every time to keep the language uncluttered, so my son could understand the concepts better. I kept the scripts the same so they would be predictable. When you count pencils, the process should be the same as when you count oranges or buttons, so that he can better understand that the process is the same, but the items being counted — and only the items being counted — are different. COUNTING is the focus, not the items being counted, how he is holding his pencil or any other distraction.

    As for repeating what you say, this is called “recasting” and it is very beneficial. Keep it up. Have him repeat after you (as long as it does not overly tire or agitate him) and repeat back to him most of the things he says, but correctly. If he says, “Dere five pencil.” You say, “There are five pencils.” (Gently, kindly, warmly — as if you are in agreement with him.) Be sure to keep your syllables and neutrally stressed as possible. Otherwise, you’re teaching him to say, “There ARE five pencils!” and, while that is endearing, it is not how one would typically announce their answer.

    A final tip: Go slowly. Cut the lesson plan in half. Cut out entirely anything he absolutely cannot do (like some of the enrichment — that was always hard for us). And go at a comfortable pace. This is hard, foundational work. It takes time. But it’s worth it. It might feel like you’re not making progress, but you are. You just have to have patience. It is written in the lesson plans, but I highly recommend taking short videos of his progress. We did that and it has been INVALUABLE to see a time line of my son’s progress.

    You’re doing great! Ask anything else, any time. We are here to help!

    ETA: He understands you, by the way. And he remembers everything that’s going on. So don’t worry about him being “in there” — HE IS. Now that my son is verbal (he’s almost 10) he tells me stories about things that happened before he had the ability to speak. He remembers them down to sometimes eerie detail. It’s startling. He also talks NON. STOP. I spent so long trying to get him to talk, but most days all I say to him is “That’s enough talking, son!”
    Last edited by Anita; 01-26-2018 at 05:43 PM.
    Boy Wonder: 10, MP2/SC4 (Special Needs)
    Joy Bubble: 8, MP2 (Special Needs)
    Snuggly Cowboy: 6, MPK
    Sweet Lightness: 2, Reverse-Engineering Specialist

    “Have no fear of moving into the unknown. Simply step out fearlessly knowing that I am with you, therefore no harm can befall you; all is very, very well. Do this in complete faith and confidence.”
    ~Pope St John Paul II

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,099

    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Juliepauldesign@gmail.com View Post
    Our 7 yr old with low verbal autism is having a hard time with parts of the counting with numbers workbook.

    He seems to be having difficulty associating a number value with an object. (Ex, 1 cup, 2 cups, 3cups,etc.)

    He can count well (almost to 100) and recognizes numbers well, but when it comes to placing value he is lost.

    We practice counting with tactile objects (blocks, coins, food, etc). We actually count things all the time , I have always counted to him.

    He especially has trouble when he is asked to count objects in the box and then circle the correct number, or circle a certain number of objects and then tell how many are remaining. He will say what I say, but he is only parroting.

    I believe this has to do with executive function and working memory or processing, but I'm not sure how to proceed here.

    Any thoughts?
    Thx,
    Julie
    Hi, Julie. We had a similar difficulty early in my daughter's academic life. Do not worry about the workbook at this stage. Feel free to set it aside, if you need to. We included workbooks in B primarily for fine-motor skills. You can teach the same concepts with counting books and concrete items.

    Just break down the task further, perhaps into only "one" and "two" for now. See if he can distinguish between 1 cup and 2 cups. Even if he is echoing initially, see if he can eventually master this. Do not worry about his identifying 3 cups, until he knows the difference between 1 cup and 2 cups.

    Also, be sure you are separating them clearly. For example, use a big string of yarn around the "set" of 1 cup off to one side, and a big string of yard around the "set" of 2 cups off to another side. After you think he is beginning to understand, say, "Point to 2 cups." Then, "Point to 1 cup." See if that helps.

    We called it "task analyze" years ago. Motto: "When in doubt, break it down."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Thank you Cheryl and Anita for your responses. They are both very helpful. I meant to respond more timely but the weekend got away from me.

    I am planning on trying the highlighter this week and only doing one section per day of the workbook to not make it burdensome for J and so that I can reinforce each section with a practical tactile application. I like the yarn idea as well. I know he knows the difference between two and one because we "play " "hand me one car, or hand me two cars or sometimes even three when picking up after playing with toys. It just seems to be the processing.

    I will follow up with a post later on with our success here after a few months.

    A while back I asked helpful coloring tips and they are all working well. I anticipate your wisdom will prevail here as well.

    I am truly praising the Lord that this is really our only issue with school this year. He really enjoys, and is progressing well, in all other areas.

    I was even able to add an early chapter book to the end of each day because he enjoys hearing stories read to him so much. He is usually attentive and engaged.

    Thank you again and again for developing this curricula and for the forum. It is truly such a tremendous blessing.
    Have a great week.
    Julie

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: SC Level B counting with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita View Post
    Yes, you are making perfect sense! My son did not speak — not even “Mama” — until he was about 5 years old. I remember these days very well!

    1) Don’t get hung up on pencil vs crayon. Just do what’s easiest and gets his attention best. Children with low verbal abilities are often intensely visual. So a highlighter works well to get and keep their attention for the task at hand. As a bonus: You can write the answer in highlighter and he can trace it with a pencil afterwards.

    2) Basically, my script always went like this.
    “How many pencils are there?” (Gently take my son’s hand and help him make a pointer finger with my hand over his) “Let’s count pencils: one, two, three, four, five.” (Short pause) “Five pencils. Good.”
    Then we would repeat the counting, but with the highlighter. “How many pencils are there? FIVE!” (Color or circle picture of pencils as you count again) “One, two, three, four, five. FIVE pencils.”

    I kept mostly the same script every time to keep the language uncluttered, so my son could understand the concepts better. I kept the scripts the same so they would be predictable. When you count pencils, the process should be the same as when you count oranges or buttons, so that he can better understand that the process is the same, but the items being counted — and only the items being counted — are different. COUNTING is the focus, not the items being counted, how he is holding his pencil or any other distraction.

    As for repeating what you say, this is called “recasting” and it is very beneficial. Keep it up. Have him repeat after you (as long as it does not overly tire or agitate him) and repeat back to him most of the things he says, but correctly. If he says, “Dere five pencil.” You say, “There are five pencils.” (Gently, kindly, warmly — as if you are in agreement with him.) Be sure to keep your syllables and neutrally stressed as possible. Otherwise, you’re teaching him to say, “There ARE five pencils!” and, while that is endearing, it is not how one would typically announce their answer.

    A final tip: Go slowly. Cut the lesson plan in half. Cut out entirely anything he absolutely

    ETA: He understands you, by the way. And he remembers everything that’s going on. So don’t worry about him being “in there” — HE IS. Now that my son is verbal (he’s almost 10) he tells me stories about things that happened before he had the ability to speak. He remembers them down to sometimes eerie detail. It’s startling. He also talks NON. STOP. I spent so long trying to get him to talk, but most days all I say to him is “That’s enough talking, son!”
    I love that Anita! Whether this is where God takes us or if He has other plans we are so encouraged by stories like this and the progress being made by so many because of this program!! It is awesome!! Congrats on all your time well spent with him! Love it!

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