OT: anyone faced something like this?

[jen1134]

I haven't really posted about this before, but it's getting worse and I can't find anything helpful online and don't have time to search for hours. My dd7 had to be weaned at 9 months because my system was overwhelmed and nursing was causing my health to tank. Ever since then, we have faced a lot of emotional challenges with her. She wants my attention as much as possible, gets very angry when I'm busy with work, will actually start to get physically ill when we haven't spent a lot of time together, gets angry when I try to do something nice with her but it doesn't go the way she wants it to go. She still sucks her fingers for comfort and a few months ago she pretended to be sick to get my attention.

She's currently laying on the floor next to my desk (we've had some mild tummy trouble in the house this week). She doesn't have a fever but she is tired and her tummy is slightly sore. She was doing well so I went upstairs for a brief conference call with a client. My oldest came upstairs and said that she was moaning "Mommy, Mommy" constantly. I came downstairs, but she was perfectly fine and wouldn't talk to me.

I make it a point to let the little kids sit on my lap at some point during the day while I work, I'll call them to help me switch laundry (they love pressing the buttons for the dryer) or make dinner (she loves to do that), I make a big deal about sharing pretty things I discover (like the homemade soap a shop downtown sells), etc.

Her anger is getting worse though and, earlier this week, she purposely scratched her arm with her fingernails while in timeout. No damage, but this is new and really worried me. One of my other children did this twice when they were younger; the doctor felt it was best to just keep an eye on things and see how it went. It didn't happen with that child again.

She won't talk to us when we try to get to the bottom of what she is mad about. I don't know if she even knows. There's just a lot of anger and I feel like I'm walking on eggshells sometimes to avoid her getting moody or mad.

Has anyone else dealt with something like this? I don't know what else to do and I'm getting worried.

[Girlnumber20]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Oh that is so hard. My boy is like this. However I nursed him forever. I nursed my older child too until very old, and she still has oral fixation issues. I don't think it is related to weaning. I'm not an expert, but I can tell you what we discovered was happening with him in hopes that you will find something that may apply or be helpful. I can't say for yours, but for my child it is anxiety, not anger- but the anger is a useful tool to mask his fear. And talking about it makes him feel even more vulnerable, so it is the worst "first step" we could have tried to take. We had to learn to stop responding to his angry outbursts or scary behavior as if he was misbehaving- and start to respond to them as if he was anxious or even terrified- which is what was (often, not always) really going on. We have to do a lot of encouraging him to take deep breaths from his stomach, (which he still fights) getting him *moving*, make his body copy how he is feeling inside. Because he wants to just sit or flop and let his head explode. (Literally the veins will stand out on his forehead!) So we try to get him to move in the way he is feeling. Run around the house really fast, for example, do chin ups, do kicks and punches. Throw a pillow onto the floor over and over as hard as he can, until he gets tired, even exhausted. He needs to be coached during these times. Like a soccer coach, emotionally removed. Treating him like he was afraid instead of "catching" the very contagious anger, or begging him for explanations has been an invaluable tool. That opened up his level of trust to be able to tell us what was going on inside, when we could also help by providing words. But it has taken 3 years of trying to get to the point where he will talk. And we really have to push him, and not give up, to help him put it into words. A sheet of emotions with faces expressing the feeling, and putting a word to it can help, because when in fight or flight his ability to find words for the feelings just vanishes, it is like being temporarily cognitively impaired! once I understood the level of his suffering, I could help so much more, but it took education and I am still learning.

Feel free to PM is you ever want to talk or commiserate and share ideas!

Prayers your way-

Maria

[cherylswope]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Hi, Jennifer. I can commiserate, because we saw tantrums and self-injurious behaviors in our son: biting himself, leaving heavy scratch marks on his arms, even eating metal objects like paperclips and thumb tacks. The destruction included furniture, his floor, etc. All very hard to know how to handle!

Do you have a pediatrician you trust? He/she might be able to point you in a good direction.

We found things that did not work:
- becoming emotional ourselves
- paying inordinate attention to his outbursts or demands
- thinking the demands for attention could ever be satisfied

We found things that helped, at least in our situation:
- setting clear limits (e.g., it is not acceptable for you to hurt anyone; this includes yourself)
- dealing as matter-of-factly as we could
- accepting a referral to a child psychiatrist (not saying your dd needs this)
- realizing that his demands were not realistic and were insatiable. The more we gave, the more he demanded
- seeing that we, not his emotions, needed to lead
- minimizing our own reactivity for the sake of his sister
- knowing that he did not like feeling out of control and that he needed for us to take the lead.

Prayer for you and for her -- emotional challenges are draining!

[jen1134]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Oh that is so hard. My boy is like this. However I nursed him forever. I nursed my older child too until very old, and she still has oral fixation issues. I don't think it is related to weaning. I'm not an expert, but I can tell you what we discovered was happening with him in hopes that you will find something that may apply or be helpful. I can't say for yours, but for my child it is anxiety, not anger- but the anger is a useful tool to mask his fear. And talking about it makes him feel even more vulnerable, so it is the worst "first step" we could have tried to take. We had to learn to stop responding to his angry outbursts or scary behavior as if he was misbehaving- and start to respond to them as if he was anxious or even terrified- which is what was (often, not always) really going on. We have to do a lot of encouraging him to take deep breaths from his stomach, (which he still fights) getting him *moving*, make his body copy how he is feeling inside. Because he wants to just sit or flop and let his head explode. (Literally the veins will stand out on his forehead!) So we try to get him to move in the way he is feeling. Run around the house really fast, for example, do chin ups, do kicks and punches. Throw a pillow onto the floor over and over as hard as he can, until he gets tired, even exhausted. He needs to be coached during these times. Like a soccer coach, emotionally removed. Treating him like he was afraid instead of "catching" the very contagious anger, or begging him for explanations has been an invaluable tool. That opened up his level of trust to be able to tell us what was going on inside, when we could also help by providing words. But it has taken 3 years of trying to get to the point where he will talk. And we really have to push him, and not give up, to help him put it into words. A sheet of emotions with faces expressing the feeling, and putting a word to it can help, because when in fight or flight his ability to find words for the feelings just vanishes, it is like being temporarily cognitively impaired! once I understood the level of his suffering, I could help so much more, but it took education and I am still learning.

Feel free to PM is you ever want to talk or commiserate and share ideas!

Prayers your way-

Maria

We used a similar process as what you described for two of my other children who didn't know how to verbalize negative emotion (leading them to resort to massive, destructive tantrums). Since this child is able to say what makes her mad, scared, etc. I didn't think about approaching it the same way. She does have anxiety though and I can see where a lot of her over-reactiveness could be stemming from that. I'll have to walk her through the breathing, seeing the connection to her anxiety, etc. It's such a hard balance with her...I know she needs more attention than my others do, but when I give it she expects even more. It's like what I do is never good enough in her eyes.

[jen1134]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Hi, Jennifer. I can commiserate, because we saw tantrums and self-injurious behaviors in our son: biting himself, leaving heavy scratch marks on his arms, even eating metal objects like paperclips and thumb tacks. The destruction included furniture, his floor, etc. All very hard to know how to handle!

Do you have a pediatrician you trust? He/she might be able to point you in a good direction.

We found things that did not work:
- becoming emotional ourselves
- paying inordinate attention to his outbursts or demands
- thinking the demands for attention could ever be satisfied

We found things that helped, at least in our situation:
- setting clear limits (e.g., it is not acceptable for you to hurt anyone; this includes yourself)
- dealing as matter-of-factly as we could
- accepting a referral to a child psychiatrist (not saying your dd needs this)
- realizing that his demands were not realistic and were insatiable. The more we gave, the more he demanded
- seeing that we, not his emotions, needed to lead
- minimizing our own reactivity for the sake of his sister
- knowing that he did not like feeling out of control and that he needed for us to take the lead.

Prayer for you and for her -- emotional challenges are draining!

We were posting at the same time!

Thank you for this...as we both posted, nothing ever seems "enough". With both yours and Maria's insights, I feel like we now have a clear path forward!

[howiecram]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

I'm feeling very frustrated with my 6 year old son. He doesn't hurt himself...exactly. However, it does happen inadvertently when he is throwing himself around. They are becoming more frequent and I'm at my wits end. He tantrums over literally anything. It is much worse when he is tired or overestimated. I get that those are his triggers, but we can't stay at home forever! Last night it was pretty awful. He fell asleep at 7:35pm. He woke up at 8:10am. He clearly needed sleep (he usually sleeps 10 1/2-11 hours). We went on a very fun field trip today, but since we have been home he's been rather unbearable.

That word - insatiable. That. We can never satisfy him.

I commiserate with you!

*I should note that my husband feels that this is our fault. I don't disagree that some of it might be "our" fault, but this still feels like a little more than poor parenting?*

[Anita]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Okay, Jen and Howie (Christine) — LISTEN AND LISTEN GOOD:

This is not your fault. Kids are wired weird sometimes. If parenting were as easy as using a Coke machine (I put a dollar in and always get exactly one Coke) everyone, especially you, would have perfectly behaved, quietly obedient and academically easy children. But kids are not made of robot parts. And incredibly negligent parents can often (surprisingly!) end up with supremely responsible and well-adjusted adult children. I can point to six examples from real life right off the top of my head. So, in contrast to those six examples, if you’re not:

1) a functional alcoholic
2) addicted to pain killers
3) sponging off unemployment while addiction is your full time job
4) able to say you’ve ever been in a fist fight with the police
5) a textbook example of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
6) oblivious to where your children are, what they’re doing, with whom and until what hour
7) living in a home that is half covered by a tarp to keep out weather, animals and human intruders

I’d say you’re not only doing a stellar job at parenting, but that your kids are not going to end up in prison. NAY! They will likely end up to be even more wonderful human beings than they are now! So stop blaming yourselves. Kids have problems navigating their inner world and lining it up with their outer one. Because they’re kids.

The beauty of parenting is that you can spend years — YEARRRRS — dutifully putting your dollar in the metaphorical Coke machine every day (and maybe getting a Coke or two, but mostly wondering if the damned thing is BROKEN) and then, one day, you put your dollar in and a landslide of perfect, ice cold, refreshing Cokes come out — enough to quench your thirst, your neighbors’, friends’ and family’s thirst and the thirst of the citizenry at large. You will have repaired one of the world’s most delightful and reliable refreshments. So keep your dollars handy.

In all seriousness, I’m not minimizing your struggle. The struggle is real. We have a self-harmer (or two) and a huge drama queen in our house, too. My primary SH needs hugs, *exercise*, tickles, giggles, FOOD (that kid is insane when he’s hungry) and quiet time when he’s wound up. NO AMOUNT OF TREAT-BASED REWARD IS EVER ENOUGH. He will want more and more and more and then have the gall to complain about “not ever getting anything”. (!) Or he will complain when someone else gets something he doesn’t. (He got upset last Mother’s Day that he didn’t get any presents because ... he’s not a mother. You just can’t make this stuff up, ladies.)

How to deal with this issue in one word? BOUNDARIES Have them, enforce them, be consistent with them, don’t feel a whit guilty about them. Kids like boundaries — even when they howl about them. We moms need boundaries to keep ourselves safe as well as our children. Otherwise, we can devolve into codependency, enmeshment, caregiver fatigue and burnout. (Trust me one this one, okay?)

These are not signs of psychosis or poor parenting. I’d say these are pretty well within the normal range of kid behavior. So take a deep breath. It’s allllll good. :thumbs up:

[Anita]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Oh that is so hard. My boy is like this. However I nursed him forever. I nursed my older child too until very old, and she still has oral fixation issues. I don't think it is related to weaning. I'm not an expert, but I can tell you what we discovered was happening with him in hopes that you will find something that may apply or be helpful. I can't say for yours, but for my child it is anxiety, not anger- but the anger is a useful tool to mask his fear. And talking about it makes him feel even more vulnerable, so it is the worst "first step" we could have tried to take. We had to learn to stop responding to his angry outbursts or scary behavior as if he was misbehaving- and start to respond to them as if he was anxious or even terrified- which is what was (often, not always) really going on. We have to do a lot of encouraging him to take deep breaths from his stomach, (which he still fights) getting him *moving*, make his body copy how he is feeling inside. Because he wants to just sit or flop and let his head explode. (Literally the veins will stand out on his forehead!) So we try to get him to move in the way he is feeling. Run around the house really fast, for example, do chin ups, do kicks and punches. Throw a pillow onto the floor over and over as hard as he can, until he gets tired, even exhausted. He needs to be coached during these times. Like a soccer coach, emotionally removed. Treating him like he was afraid instead of "catching" the very contagious anger, or begging him for explanations has been an invaluable tool. That opened up his level of trust to be able to tell us what was going on inside, when we could also help by providing words. But it has taken 3 years of trying to get to the point where he will talk. And we really have to push him, and not give up, to help him put it into words. A sheet of emotions with faces expressing the feeling, and putting a word to it can help, because when in fight or flight his ability to find words for the feelings just vanishes, it is like being temporarily cognitively impaired! once I understood the level of his suffering, I could help so much more, but it took education and I am still learning.

Feel free to PM is you ever want to talk or commiserate and share ideas!

Prayers your way-

Maria

And this is gold.

Cheryl advice is, too (as always).

If I confront my SH — KABOOM. The best things I’ve found are what I listed previously. Also lowering my tone instead of raising it. Soften my face, soften my voice, quiet my voice, direct eye contact, firm but gentle, touching with kindness. That’s a way better approach than yelling like a lunatic. (Ask me how I know.)

[cherylswope]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

I must say, too, that I am so proud of my son today. He still needs limits, but with good structure, rest, and support, he no longer has those issues that plagued him in childhood. We notice when things begin to be out of sorts for him, but most days he is contented, giving, and self-controlled, raking leaves for neighbors, ushering at church, enjoying friends, working four days a week now, and is tenderly patient with his sister, elderly neighbors, and my husband and me.

Not at all an overnight turn-around, but through years of maturing through his classical Christian education and everyone's effort (including our extended family) in his life, he is at a comfortable, loving place that still makes me marvel and give thanks today.

[Cheryl in CA]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

My son had severe anxiety, so severe that it was paralyzing. It started when he entered our family at 11 months and was continuous for 3 years, during which he was mute and clung to me as though his life depended on it. After years of searching for answers, we were finally able to find out what was wrong. He had primitive reflexes (especially Fear Paralysis and Moro) re-emerge, which left him in a constant state of fight or flight. Neurodevelopmental therapy helped, but what has helped the most is reflex integration therapy. Neurodevelopmental therapy addresses primitive reflexes (why it helped), but not to the extent of reflex integration therapy.

I have no idea if this is your child's issue, but it could be. There are SO MANY issues that are caused by retained reflexes (behaviors as you describe, ADD symptoms, language and learning delays, etc, etc). If you are interested in learning more, "Symphony of the Reflexes," by Bonnie Brandees is an excellent book on the subject.

[cherylswope]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

With both yours and Maria's insights, I feel like we now have a clear path forward!

Any improvement?

A word about reflex integration and other ancillary approaches to emotional/behavioral or even academc issues: do your own research on the history, efficacy, and issues of correlation vs. causation regarding any theories or treatments you pursue. Some popular centers can play on our desperation (or guilt) and become both costly and distracting. Just do your homework.

[Cheryl in CA]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Any improvement?

A word about reflex integration and other ancillary approaches to emotional/behavioral or even academc issues: do your own research on the history, efficacy, and issues of correlation vs. causation regarding any theories or treatments you pursue. Some popular centers can play on our desperation (or guilt) and become both costly and distracting. Just do your homework.

Definitely do your homework. I suggested the book because it's inexpensive. All traditional medicine offered my son was medication (I wasn't interested in side effects, and it would just have masked his symptoms instead of address them) and speech therapy (in his state at that time, all speech therapy did was make the problem worse because it caused more anxiety). Thankfully, our Pediatrician wasn't interested in just drugging him. When I found the Neurodevelopmental Therapist (through friends in my homeschooling group who had been seeing her for years with amazing results for their children...children on the autism spectrum and others with learning and developmental delays, most also had emotional and behavioral issues), our Ped was very supportive. I don't know how all NDT's work, but ours you see every 4 months. She evaluates the child and gives you a plan that you do with the child. After 4 months, she reevaluates the child and makes changes to the plan. I can imagine it would be extremely expensive if you were just paying someone to do the therapy! It cost less than speech therapy ($65 for 1 day/week) and worked! Once my son got to the point that he could do speech therapy, we began that as well. Our Pediatrician was amazed and remained very supportive. While doing more researching, I found reflex integration therapy. It can be as inexpensive or expensive as you want. If I paid someone to work on my child, it would be expensive. In most places that isn't even an option because there simply aren't that many. I live near the daughter of the author of the book I mentioned (a happy coincidence; I didn't find that out until after I had researched it and had decided to try it). I had her work on my son weekly for 3 weeks (with me there) to see how it went. Interestingly, our speech therapist (who had no idea we were going to reflex integration therapy) began seeing jumps in his expressive language skills. At first I thought that it was just a coincidence, but it continued every week after he had a session. I continued on my own and have been nothing short of amazed. There is an initial expense if you use cold laser for reflex integration, but you can do it inexpensively through manual methods. My son is still a work in progress, but he has made AMAZING progress!! The anxiety that was so crippling has been gone for several years now, and all without medication because the cause of the anxiety was treated instead of just being masked anti-anxiety meds.

Before you think I'm a weirdo who shuns traditional medicine (maybe you already do, LOL), I should tell you that I'm an RN and do use traditional medicine and therapies. However, there are many areas where it's less than helpful and some where it actually does harm. If I had stayed with traditional medicine for my son, he would be heavily medicated and no closer to being healed than the day we started. Thankfully I had the support of a Pediatrician who believes the same. Most don't have that. It's kind of ironic that my son may end up going on meds for a completely separate issue, though it does prove my point that I don't shun traditional medicine. My son has been off the bottom of the growth chart for some time and has continued a downward descent. His Pediatrician ordered preliminary testing which showed that his growth hormone levels are low and his bone age delayed, so he sees the Pediatric Endocrinologist next month. They will do more testing and decide if he has Growth Hormone Deficiency and rule out something else being the cause. If he does (which seems likely), he will require growth hormone replacement. If it is necessary, this is a medication to which I will consent because it is the only way to treat the problem.

I wish you (the OP) success in finding out what is best for your child, whatever that is (I don't pretend to know, just offer additional possibilities).

[jen1134]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

Any improvement?

A word about reflex integration and other ancillary approaches to emotional/behavioral or even academc issues: do your own research on the history, efficacy, and issues of correlation vs. causation regarding any theories or treatments you pursue. Some popular centers can play on our desperation (or guilt) and become both costly and distracting. Just do your homework.

I've been dealing with a bad round of depression this week, so today was actually the first day that I caught myself and tried to handle her reactions from a "this is anxiety" standpoint. If nothing else, it kept me from going crazy from the screaming/potential cat fights with her sister.

The depression has lifted so here's to moving forward on this!

[Anita]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

I've been dealing with a bad round of depression this week, so today was actually the first day that I caught myself and tried to handle her reactions from a "this is anxiety" standpoint. If nothing else, it kept me from going crazy from the screaming/potential cat fights with her sister.

The depression has lifted so here's to moving forward on this!

Good to hear, Jen. Track your symptoms. Be aware. Give yourself a mental outlet and rest. Exercise. Stay away from alcohol (a depressant). You know what to do. Dealing with that, working, and rearing/educating children is a full plate. I’m glad you’re feeling better.

We are in the midst of an unexpected layoff over this way. But, weirdly, no one is depressed. Hubby and I are both enjoying each other’s company. This is the most the kids and I have seen him in years. We’re having a lot of fun. Severance and other benefits, plus some belt-tightening, will mean we are fairly well covered for about 7 or 8 months of unemployment. But our health insurance runs out on Saturday. Not ideal. Say a prayer for our collective good health.

[Cheryl in CA]

Re: OT: anyone faced something like this?

But our health insurance runs out on Saturday. Not ideal. Say a prayer for our collective good health.

I'm so sorry! Regarding the health insurance issue, have you looked into catastrophic health insurance and/or programs like Samaritan's Purse? I know several who have catastrophic health insurance (I think that's what it's called) so they aren't without health insurance if they are in a serious accident. Programs like Samaritan's Purse won't take you if you have pre-existing conditions. But, if you don't, they can be an affordable alternative until you can get health insurance again.