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Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

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    Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

    Context: 3rd grader with dyslexic behaviors who is easily frustrated when reading aloud and rarely uses her phonics to decode unfamiliar words.

    Another MP mom on the forum suggested that I ask my questions in this forum. I started a similar thread on the general forum.

    We didn't do the MP lit last year for 2nd grade. I believe the 2nd grade chapter books would also be too frustrating even this year if she read aloud parts to me. Is there a chapter book and comp guide that you would recommend for a struggling 3rd grade reader? I would also like to make plans for 4th grade if you have recommendations for next year as well.

    My other question is should I have her read on grade level alone and then read a different book aloud to me as long as her answers on comprehension questions are correct?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by thenightbeforechristmas; 10-26-2016, 11:53 AM.

    #2
    Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

    Yes! I really like this one for Prairie School. (For SC 3, I needed to read/study all of the MP 2 guides. As you know, the MP lit guides have different writers.) We will be including this one at the end of SC 3.


    Does your student mind books for younger children? (My daughter never minded one bit, but my son did.) If yes, ignore this upcoming suggestion:

    If no, consider our Simply Classical Storytime Treasures right now. We take extra time with pre-reading exercises. This includes comprehension, reading practice, vocab, and intro to composition, so I mention it as an alternative to MP lit guides.

    If this works well, consider Simply Classical MoreStorytime for next year. Even though reading selections are "lower" than an older student's grade level, we have packed this with studies in parts of speech, visualizing comprehension, literary devices such as the simile, and daily work in composition skills.



    Other options:
    You could 1) work with only SELECT MP 2 or 3 lit guides next year or 2) consider an entire SC 2 or SC 3 package, in which Christian studies become additional reading/literature/composition studies at lower levels, and then you could supplement with your higher-level studies in content areas, if desired.


    If none of the above sounds feasible or desirable, you could do this:

    Conduct your own oral literature studies with one or two guides as your in-home assistant. Just plan to read the literature selections aloud, or have the student listen via audio book, and then discuss with the help of the guide.

    You can boost this last option any way you would like. For example, place vocabulary on the board and review daily (as receptive vocabulary, not as decoding). The MP 2, 3, 4 book selections are SO good, you do not want your student to miss them. If you give yourself permission to read most of these aloud or assign as audio books, and then discuss orally with the help of the guides (that only you read in your lap to guide your discussions), that might help.



    That was a flurry of options! Feel free to follow up, if none of these seems realistic or desirable.

    Thanks-
    Cheryl

    eta: I answered "Yes!" before you edited. My "Yes!" was in response to recommending a specific MP 2 guide. I think the other question was answered among the other responses, but let me know if that is not the case. If her comprehension is good, but decoding poor, do not keep her from higher-level literature. Just read aloud together and discuss. If needed to save your voice or your time, sometimes utilize audio books via Audible, Librivox, Learning Ally, or your local library.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

      I just read through the K-8 thread.

      The key seems to be separating her decoding from her comprehension/language.


      Decoding
      For decoding, she still needs to be reading good books every day. (No literary "junk food" allowed! )

      Comprehension and Language Development
      Supplement with MP 2, 3, or 4 literature as your weightier read-alouds.



      This year:
      Consider our Extended Literature set from SC 2. She needs to be reading, reading, reading. We scheduled reading these books for blossoming readers with these lesson plans. This might help with oral reading practice. Most of these authors have multiple books, so she can continue in whichever she likes.

      If you're hesitant about Barton, you might like the full SC 2 Phonics/Reading. We begin with O-G decodable readers and review phonics patterns. We progress to reading good books with phonics lessons. OR consider the full SC 2 package for Phonics/Reading and Composition.


      Next year:
      Consider SC 3 Phonics/Reading and Composition. In SC More Storytime, we include a Phonics Box in our pre-reading exercises. She will review phonics rules, practice phonics sounds, etc. We study American history, so the student reads Wagon Wheels and Prairie School. We read aloud great biographies and historical narratives. (Full book list coming soon!)



      This is the approach we used with both of my children (specific learning disabilities). They read, read, read orally every day as low as they needed to read without dysfluency or undue amounts of guessing. At the same time, I read, read, read aloud higher-level books to them, so they could experience rich, complex, and beautiful language which improved their thinking, their vocabulary, and, eventually, their own writing.

      And now our local library has one exception to its 10-books-per-checkout limit. The librarian smiles, "Well, that's ok. It's Michelle."



      Keep thinking. This is good! You're just re-evaluating, because you are realizing that she cannot proceed in a linear way through the MP Cores without modification. There are many good ways to proceed.


      Thanks-
      Cheryl

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

        I never know where to post personal situation questions, but mine seems to tie into this one. However, my child is only 7. I needed some clarification on what you were saying in your above post though.

        I was just about to message you with a similar question. To the original poster, my 7 year old was evaluated in the spring (when she was 6 years 9 months). Dyslexia was NOT found, but her working memory was shown to be in the "slightly impaired region". She has above average intelligence and her comprehension skills are high. She only reads "the, a, an" correctly about 50% of the time. This tells me she isn't always "reading", but guessing her way through entire passages, using contextual clues and seeing maybe only the first letter of words and "guessing" correctly. She can team read fairly well, but I noticed words that have a constant blend or diagraph, along with a long vowel stump her, every time. We are using SC2. We did the first few weeks, but even the readers "Moose Moments" were frustrating for us both. She was getting so many words wrong! I've decide to pause the SC2 reading for now and purchased All About Reading Level 1. We made it through the first 18 lessons of AAR and NOW, she is finally reading CVC words with almost perfect accuracy. When we were reading the word lists from Classical Phonics in the spring, she was hit or miss on which words she got right wrong, so I AM seeing an improvement...just at a snails pace! We are "stuck" though on All About reading lesson 24/25. Lesson 19-23 was TH/CH/SH. We did ok again on this, but then it was constant blends (lk, mp, etc). We are "stuck" here. Her error frequency is high. So, for now, we are holding tight. The thing I don't like about All About Reading is they don't give you what to do while you are "stuck"! So, we are going back to re-reading Scamp and Tramp, I think, because I don't know what else to do! If she still needs more practice with these words, I'll have to think of something else! Along with reading Scamp and Tramp, we'll use the All About Reading tiles and spell the words, "write" the words, etc. I'm looking for a few more activities to help her as well (wordfind puzzles maybe?)..

        I also have decided to hold off on her reading anything to me. I am not going to stop her from picking up a book and trying to read it on her own though. I think that seems like a reasonable approach.

        So, my question that ties in with the original poster. I was wondering if we shouldn't buy some of the lit guides (we have the SC2 Storytime book) and let me read the books to her and she can do the guide? I feel like she could handle something more though (maybe no writing, just orally) and wondered if we shouldn't try one of the 2nd grade books (me reading, her answering, orally) to challenge that aspect. I don't think she is going to learn in a linear sequence either.

        To the original poster: - how is your child's math? Mine has high math thinking, but the math facts were not coming along. I had moved onto the next level of math facts, and had to back up and repeat 10 weeks worth of material..she's re-learned them and actually we hit a huge growth and now she has all her addition and subtraction through 10 memorized! WE are ALMOST ready for R&S 2! This seems to tie into her working memory issue. I wondered if your possibly dyslexic child was having issues with math as well?
        Christine

        (2019/2020)
        DD1 8/23/09 - SC5/6
        DS2 9/1/11 - SC3,4, 5/6 combo
        DD3 2/9/13 -SC2 to start, MP1 second semester

        Previous Years
        DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4’
        DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, SC2)
        DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK)

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

          Hi, Christine.

          How is she doing with SC Spelling? Does she hear and spell the consonant blends in those isolated words?

          Cheryl

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

            Also for Christine (howiecram), does she rush when reading, as if stumbling over herself? If so, be sure she slows down to read each little word correctly. You might try a reading guide, such as an index card, beneath each line to isolate the line of words visually.

            If you really want a scripted, broken-down system, take a look at Barton Reading & Spelling mentioned in the K-8 thread. I'm not suggesting you leave either SC or AAR, but simply that you know about it. Watch the videos. If nothing else, you might gain some take-away strategies on just how explicit reading instruction can be.

            Look also at Susan Barton's description of which students do best with the program. You'll find a screening there. I have never taught with the program, so I cannot speak to using it, but DiannaKennedy and Susan (sfhargett) are teaching with Barton alongside SC 2, so they could answer specific questions, if you feel you need a more detailed program. This is an overview.

            Just remember that your daughter is bright, and you WILL teach her to read! It might not seem like it, but you're getting a really early start. Sometimes children slip through cracks until age 11, 12 or even later with their reading. You have your finger on the pulse of her reading right now, and you're not giving up!





            For the original poster, pardon the sidetrack. Your daughter seems to be doing quite well, all things considered! She can already read Boxcar, which is a turning point for many!

            As for the 2-year difference, this worked well for my son in many ways. We even found a scoutmaster who placed my son in a den with boys 2 years younger. This was (and remained) the perfect maturity level for him from Cub all the way through Life Scout.

            Also for the original poster, part of the difficulty can be embracing -- or at least accepting -- the differences we see in our children. Over time, strengths and talents emerge. We cultivate these, even as we work on needed skills and abilities. I love this from Gigi on the K-8 thread:

            My oldest is now a junior in college, majoring in physics. Dyslexics have a special talent to "see in 3 dimensions." I wish I could've glimpsed the future when he was 8--it would've saved me a lot of worry!


            Thanks-
            Cheryl

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

              Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
              Hi, Christine.

              How is she doing with SC Spelling? Does she hear and spell the consonant blends in those isolated words?

              Cheryl
              hmm, I dropped the spelling, because I thought the reading trumped that at the moment. That is a good question, though. She can hear and spell any CVC word.....

              but I just "tested" her orally and I would say she struggled with some of the blend endings. She spelled most of the "mp, ld, ft, lk, lp, nd, nt" correct. She missed a lot of the ct, sk, sp and st ending words.

              I think I see where you are going with this. Should we play more sound games with these? I remember from book 'd' finding objects from around the house that began with certain blends, etc. I now envision jumping in hoops with the ending blends she hears as well.....as well as all beginning blends, constant diagraphs, etc. got it! :-)

              P.S. a "funny" aside is that she has lost her two front teeth, so "th", "sh" and "ch" words are challenging to pronounce at the moment!!

              ...and to answer your other question you asked while I was typing! :-) - Yes, I''m sure she rushes, and reads too fast!!


              ...and to get back to the original poster question. When you would recommend to go non linear with a child. I.e - perhaps a lower level phonics/actual readers mixed with the parent reading aloud a higher level book (that matches comprehension) with an MP study guide, done orally?
              Last edited by howiecram; 10-26-2016, 02:33 PM.
              Christine

              (2019/2020)
              DD1 8/23/09 - SC5/6
              DS2 9/1/11 - SC3,4, 5/6 combo
              DD3 2/9/13 -SC2 to start, MP1 second semester

              Previous Years
              DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4’
              DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, SC2)
              DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK)

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                Yes, and definitely pick up SC Spelling again! You'll find little sight words in there too. We focus on consonant blends for many weeks in both SC Spelling Book One and Book Two (coming).

                Part of her difficulty is focusing. Spelling helps a person focus on the details of each word. It all works together. Use spelling as your encoding friend of decoding.


                And yes, play those Consonant Blend games. Choose whichever she liked most from SC 1:

                -She is social, so she might like to create party lists of guests with silly names (nonsense words) that begin or end with consonant blends.
                -Jump or toss into concentric circles with various consonant blends.
                -Hot potato with words that have consonant blends.
                -Hangman is good. You fill in the consonant blend. Leave the other letters blank. Use the same consonant blend for several words in a row.


                None of this needs to take lots of time. Just stay with those consonant blends in many different forms (including spelling!). Isolate only one or two at a time until she KNOWS them. Do not throw too many different ones at her too quickly.

                You're on the right track!


                eta ... we're typing over each other. Then regarding rushing, you might give her more than an index card. Some children do well with a "Window" card. You cut a small window into a card to isolate one word at a time. She will not like it at first, but you can make your point that good reading is, truly, one word at a time. You can tell her that when she takes her time with the Window card, she can graduate to a Line card, reading one line at a time.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                  Originally posted by howiecram View Post
                  ...and to get back to the original poster question. When you would recommend to go non linear with a child. I.e - perhaps a lower level phonics/actual readers mixed with the parent reading aloud a higher level book (that matches comprehension) with an MP study guide, done orally?

                  Given your daughter's age, you're just fine where you are. The read-alouds in SC 2 match her emotional maturity, chronological age, and comprehension. If you had time and wanted to add higher-level read-alouds, I would do this as a family without a literature guide. Just read through the Little House series, for example.



                  The original poster's daughter is older. Our SC 3 will begin to address this need with higher-interest content (American history) supplementing basic skills instruction.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                    For thenightbeforechristmas,


                    Please let us know what you decide. I think it will help others. Yours is a common dilemma, especially around 3rd grade.


                    If you need any clarification with any of the responses, or if we failed to address your situation, feel free to follow up.

                    Thanks-
                    Cheryl

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                      Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
                      Yes, and definitely pick up SC Spelling again! You'll find little sight words in there too. We focus on consonant blends for many weeks in both SC Spelling Book One and Book Two (coming).

                      Part of her difficulty is focusing. Spelling helps a person focus on the details of each word. It all works together. Use spelling as your encoding friend of decoding.


                      And yes, play those Consonant Blend games. Choose whichever she liked most from SC 1:

                      -She is social, so she might like to create party lists of guests with silly names (nonsense words) that begin or end with consonant blends.
                      -Jump or toss into concentric circles with various consonant blends.
                      -Hot potato with words that have consonant blends.
                      -Hangman is good. You fill in the consonant blend. Leave the other letters blank. Use the same consonant blend for several words in a row.


                      .
                      This helps SO much! Thank you! - I <3 the party list idea! That is very much up her alley!
                      Christine

                      (2019/2020)
                      DD1 8/23/09 - SC5/6
                      DS2 9/1/11 - SC3,4, 5/6 combo
                      DD3 2/9/13 -SC2 to start, MP1 second semester

                      Previous Years
                      DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4’
                      DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, SC2)
                      DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                        I replied on the K-8 board about what we're doing this year. Hopefully you saw it. I was at my daughter's organ lesson when I wrote it and didn't have my Orton-Gillingham notes with me, so I'm coming back to add this list of some well-known O-G programs:

                        Alphabetic Phonics
                        Barton
                        Language!
                        Project Read
                        Slingerland
                        Sonday
                        Wilson

                        Susan Barton says that many young dyslexics hit the "3rd grade brick wall." (which could explain what you're seeing with Boxcar to Farmer Boy.) That, combined with thinking of my son being a bit younger academically/emotionally than chronologically has made SC2 a great fit for him right now. He has no comprehension issues and loves to listen to all kinds of books out loud. When we get to the higher level literature guides, we'll likely do them mostly orally, but until then, the comprehension questions in the back of SC2 are wonderful and can apply to any book. Sometimes, if the story is right, I'll add in THE question according to Andrew...oh, no, is it Kerns or Adams? AAHHH, I can't remember! But the question is, "What should he/she have done?" This leads to all kinds of wonderful discussion, not only about the story, but about why the author wrote it the way he/she did. This question only gets better as the kids get older. ( there's more to it than that, but it gets them thinking)

                        I love the SC Storytime Treasures, too. I wrote more about my son's specific curriculum in my other reply on the K-8 board.

                        All parents worry about their children, but when special needs enter the picture, worry increases exponentially. At least it does here!

                        Your daughter is doing great!

                        ETA that it may have been Adam Andrews. I don't know where I got Andrew Adams... So many Andrews...
                        Last edited by Gigi; 10-27-2016, 10:55 AM. Reason: correction
                        Gina
                        Honored & Blessed to be teaching my children at home
                        (since 2001)

                        DS-sophomore in college
                        DD-soon-to-be college freshman!
                        DD-9
                        DS-8

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                          Dear Cheryl and all,

                          I sincerely apologize for not responding in October to your questions and wonderfully helpful advice and thoughts. I had been following the thread on my phone while out of town and did not realize that further conversation was occurring. I shouldn't have relied on email notifications which often stop unless you revisit the post. Thank you for your graciousness and patience with me!

                          Here's an attempt to answer some questions that were asked:

                          - My daughter did both Storytime Treasures and More Storytime Treasures in 1st grade. The Simply Classical versions were not available at that time.
                          - For 2nd grade, we sent her to private school. There she learned about picking a "just right" book that "interests you." Now she has become incredibly picking about what books she will somewhat happily read, unfortunately Prairie School didn't make the cut. But she thoroughly enjoyed The Courage of Sarah Noble and The Bears on Hemlock Mountain at the end of 2nd grade.
                          - Math is one of her favorite subjects, but she has trouble recalling basic math facts and makes simple mistakes during computation. Story problems are also challenging for her. She scores average in math which has been discouraging.

                          Unfortunately, we don't have the finances for the Barton curriculum at this time. It sounds amazing!

                          Where is she now? I did a recording of her reading a Beverly Cleary book in November and yesterday. She read alone. She would not sound out words that were unfamiliar to her. From what I can tell she is completely sight reading. She has all the phonics knowledge she possibly can have for her age, but she will not employ it unless coached to do so. As I result, she cannot comprehend grade-level books. She cannot answer comprehension questions without going back in the text.

                          I'm not sure what to do. She has as you said hit the 3rd grade brick wall. She has the phonics knowledge but doesn't use it.

                          Thanks for any further thoughts you may have. I will start to look into the SC literature curriculum. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I am also considering All About Spelling and All About Reading to help her move beyond the brick wall.

                          Thanks again!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                            Originally posted by thenightbeforechristmas View Post

                            Unfortunately, we don't have the finances for the Barton curriculum at this time. It sounds amazing!


                            Thanks again!
                            A few thoughts about financing Barton. (we are starting Level 3 this week --- I've been a bit lazy about phonics as of late.)

                            Are you on FB? There are a couple of groups there -- Homeschooling with Barton and Homeschooling with Dyslexia often have mommas selling Barton Levels there.

                            Ebay is another place, and maybe Homeschool Classifieds.

                            Do you have a Scottish Rite in your area? I know they help with dyslexia testing and tutoring, so they may have a Barton program for you to borrow or such.

                            Do you have a school for dyslexics in your area? I stalked our local dyslexia school and happened across a non profit organization that 'rents' Barton levels. That's how I obtained my level 3.

                            If your child flies through Level 1, Susan will refund your money when you buy Level 2. (if you buy through the website)

                            The resale value (resell?) is CRAZY good. I'll be selling my Level 2 for the same price for which I bought it.

                            It's boring as all get out, but I think it works. My boys are reading MUCH better ---- but it might be a combination of maturity/Barton/and vision therapy. Who knows?
                            Plans for 2019-20
                            DD #1 : 24, heading to Chase Law School NKU Fall 2019
                            DD #2 : 13 8A: HLS Cottage School Louisville, MPOA
                            DS #3 : 11 4A + Simply Classical 5/6; HLS Cottage School Louisville
                            DS #4 : 11 4A + Simply Classical 5/6; HLS Cottage School Louisville
                            DD #5: 7, MP 2 at home, HLS Cottage School Louisville
                            DS #6: 5, MP K at home

                            [url]www.thekennedyadventures.com/all-about-our-memoria-press-homeschool[/url]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Using 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade MP literature with dyslexic child

                              Originally posted by thenightbeforechristmas View Post
                              She read alone. She would not sound out words that were unfamiliar to her. From what I can tell she is completely sight reading. She has all the phonics knowledge she possibly can have for her age, but she will not employ it unless coached to do so. As I result, she cannot comprehend grade-level books. She cannot answer comprehension questions without going back in the text.

                              Thanks again!
                              We're working on that here, too. It's a long process. An evaluator told me that they're spending all of their energy decoding, and by the time they're done, they're exhausted. Like slogging up a hill --- you don't see what's around you, as you're just concentrating on getting to the top.

                              I don't know how to help, but I'm just commiserating with you.
                              Plans for 2019-20
                              DD #1 : 24, heading to Chase Law School NKU Fall 2019
                              DD #2 : 13 8A: HLS Cottage School Louisville, MPOA
                              DS #3 : 11 4A + Simply Classical 5/6; HLS Cottage School Louisville
                              DS #4 : 11 4A + Simply Classical 5/6; HLS Cottage School Louisville
                              DD #5: 7, MP 2 at home, HLS Cottage School Louisville
                              DS #6: 5, MP K at home

                              [url]www.thekennedyadventures.com/all-about-our-memoria-press-homeschool[/url]

                              Comment

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