Help Choosing Simply Classical vs. MP2!

[hguzman]

I am so torn with which program I should go with! Let me give you some background information first. My eldest was diagnosed with sensory processing disorder at the age of 2 1/2. He also qualified for SP, OT, and had major developmental delays throughout his preschool years. He repeated kindergarten because he was unable to do the work at all. The summer before first grade he was diagnosed with mild to moderate autism and unspecified anxiety disorder. He was receiving services for food therapy and OT twice a week but we had to discontinue therapy due to lack of funding. He finished out his first grade year a month ago. It has been a long journey. We incorporated all of the MP Kindergarten enrichment, copybook, and recitation into our schedule along with Math-U-See Alpha, All About Reading Level 1, and Catholic Heritage Curricula's first grade spelling. We also used CHC's First Grade Phonics program, grade 1 handwriting, and grade 1 science.

Some things to note: He struggles with remembering information that he has learned previously. He also has a very difficult time focusing on his work when his siblings are around.

Reading is his most difficult subject. He struggles with remembering phonics rules so that he can blend and decode words. He loved the All About Reading program for its activities and games. He said, "I love reading the stories because they are funny." However, as soon as we started reading his stories for the day I would notice his anxiety level would skyrocket. He would begin to fidget, whimper, and breathe rapidly. When he got to a word that he didn't know or remember he threw his body backwards and began to cry. He said, "I don't know that word" or "I can't do it" even though he may have read the same word 2 pages back. He can read words that are on flashcards easily, but putting words in list form or a sentence causes anxiety and then he forgets the same words that he read on the cards. Right now, he is able to read most Level 1 books like Little Bear, Are You My Mother?, and Sammy the Seal on a GOOD day with success and fluency.

Spelling is sporadic. He struggles with remembering what he has previously learned and will spell a word correctly and incorrectly within the same sentence. Sight words are a particular struggle. He can remember his words for the week but forgets how to spell them later.

Writing has been a very difficult journey for him. He can write all his letters but has a difficult time keeping them in the lines, prefers to write in uppercase letters, and struggles with reading and writing letters/numbers backwards (mostly b and d, 2, 5, 6, 7, 9). He loves to tell silly stories (usually involving "what if" doomsday scenarios) about things that don't work, break, or explode but can't put together a reality-based story.

Math is a subject that he loves because the rules don't really change like they do in reading. That being said, he has a difficult time understanding word problems because they require a higher level of thinking. He uses touch points and his fingers to add and subtract but frequently forgets what number he is on or adds when he should subtract. He refuses to use the manipulative block set. He wants to rush through his work because he equates fast with doing well.

He absolutely loves science and history. His favorite theme is extreme weather (ties into his fixation with disasters). He prefers non-fiction and realistic fiction.

He hates manipulating things because he thinks it slows him down but when we use them we have so many little "lightbulb" moments! Another important note: Every year I have thought about holding him back again because he seems to be struggling so much with the work. However; around May each year so many things just seem to click... He technically should be going into 3rd grade next fall but since we held him back in kindergarten he would be entering 2nd grade. His sister will be in first grade this fall and things come very easily for her. He sees that she is quickly catching up to him and it doesn't help his self-esteem at all. I just don't know what to do!

I did the Simply Classical Readiness Assessments for Level 2, 3, and 4 to see where he would fit.
Here are the results:
Level 2 -
Reading: 100%
Writing and Spelling: 100%
Arithmetic: 100%
Language: 80%
Social, Emotional, Attention, Work Habits: 100%

Level 3:
Reading: 71%
Writing and Spelling: 67%
Arithmetic: 100%
Language: 80%
Social, Emotional, Attention, Work Habits: 100%

Level 4:
Reading: 37%
Writing and Spelling: 57%
Arithmetic: 87%
Language: 77%
Social, Emotional, Attention, Work Habits: 80%

[cherylswope]

Thank you for this thorough explanation. I think SC 3 would be a very good choice. Advantages:
1. Less Comparison
Because the materials are largely different, he will have his "own" curriculum rather than being behind in his sibling's curriculum. You will not avoid all of those necessary conversations, but this may limit them somewhat.

2. Customizability
With the Customize tab, you can substitute a higher math level if he needs it. You will receive the needed lesson plans for both pacing and movement activities to help with memory.

3. Age-appropriateness
In SC 3 we assume the need for explicit remediation in language, spelling, reading, and writing but gather our enrichment, including science, around American history. Often our SC 3 students are 9-13 chronologically and are ready for American history studies.

Given your son's background, SC is a sound and reasonable choice. Both of you will appreciate the pacing, the review, and the thematic approach that often seems to assist both comprehension and retention.

Orders in June > $75 earn free shipping, so if we can help further before the end of the month let us know.

[enbateau]

MP2 would definitely be frustrating for your out-of-the-box learner. I just finished it with my NT eldest, and it was plenty challenging. SC3 sounds like a much better fit for your son's needs. And he's going to love some of that early American pioneer literature so fun. Prairie School was a favorite in this house!

I would like to plug the Rod & Staff Math. It was transformative for my eldest who had struggled with math (and all the resulting counting up and backwards on her fingers) prior to our switch. We went back to R&S Arithmetic 1, even though she had experience adding with regrouping in multi-digit numbers and subtracting with borrowing across 3 zeros. It was the best thing ever! She gained confidence by having her facts down cold. She now has mastery of her addition and subtraction facts up to her 18s, and she can complete 58 mixed add/sub flashcards in 60 seconds! She is now memorizing her multiplication and division facts, not *just* skip counting. Seriously consider going down a level, perhaps over the summer, and work in the fact houses until he has cold memorized the fact family of the 2's house, 3's house, etc. It was hard for my eldest to start back at a "baby" level, too, but now she feels confident and empowered. The format is simple, repetitive, and mastery-based. My little guy is our out-of-the-box learner, and I would choose no other math curriculum.

[hguzman]

Cheryl, thank you for your advice! I feel much better after hearing someone else's thoughts on this matter besides my own! Is there much difference in the style of learning for the enrichment sections for SC3 vs the MPK-2 enrichment sections? I am trying to decide if I can combine my first grader and second grader for enrichment or if it would be more beneficial for him if I kept it separate.
Enbateau, I like your idea of working at a lower level to gain mastery of the facts.

Since R&S focuses more on instant recall and my son can only give instant recall with the 0 and 1 fact families, what level should I begin with? He can count very quickly with his hands or by using touch-points, but I know that R&S tries to steer away from this method because it isn't as quick. What level do you think I should begin with? Since we are switching from Math-U-See, should I start at the very beginning to give him an understanding of how the program teaches the concepts or will arithmetic 2 give him the review he needs from the previous level?

[enbateau]

I say do an intensive of MP1 with just the workbooks. Don't buy the Teacher's Manuals, just give him the workbook and do one or two lessons a day every day. He'll probably laugh at how "easy" the format is, but then it starts to get hard as the student has to discriminate between his 8 facts and 9 facts. We skipped the pages with the stair steps. By the start of MP2, we rolled into R&S Arithmetic 2, which was on grade level. It was hard, but we kept it up. Isn't SC3 using math2? Trust me, it was the best thing ever! We're approaching multiplication the same way....slow and steady wins the race!

[jen1134]

I say do an intensive of MP1 with just the workbooks. Don't buy the Teacher's Manuals, just give him the workbook and do one or two lessons a day every day. He'll probably laugh at how "easy" the format is, but then it starts to get hard as the student has to discriminate between his 8 facts and 9 facts. We skipped the pages with the stair steps. By the start of MP2, we rolled into R&S Arithmetic 2, which was on grade level. It was hard, but we kept it up. Isn't SC3 using math2? Trust me, it was the best thing ever! We're approaching multiplication the same way....slow and steady wins the race!

But when you get to R&S 2, make sure you use the Teacher Manual. The TM lessons have all the number-sense and mental math work! I think a lot of people who end up not liking RS just use the workbooks and then end up hating the repetition when they’re actually missing half the program.

[cherylswope]

Cheryl, thank you for your advice! I feel much better after hearing someone else's thoughts on this matter besides my own! Is there much difference in the style of learning for the enrichment sections for SC3 vs the MPK-2 enrichment sections? I am trying to decide if I can combine my first grader and second grader for enrichment or if it would be more beneficial for him if I kept it separate.
Enbateau, I like your idea of working at a lower level to gain mastery of the facts.

Since R&S focuses more on instant recall and my son can only give instant recall with the 0 and 1 fact families, what level should I begin with? He can count very quickly with his hands or by using touch-points, but I know that R&S tries to steer away from this method because it isn't as quick. What level do you think I should begin with? Since we are switching from Math-U-See, should I start at the very beginning to give him an understanding of how the program teaches the concepts or will arithmetic 2 give him the review he needs from the previous level?

Most of the time any Enrichment will do; however, SC 3 is uniquely links American history, science, history, art, & music, so I would teach him from this if possible. The American history read-alouds take quite a bit of time, so plan your day to include lengthier read-aloud periods. Your younger children can join in for only the read-alouds or for the entire SC 3 Enrichment.

Regarding math, R&S has a placement test. Scroll down within the link for both a Scope & Sequence and Placement Test. This might be the easiest way to tell where you should begin. All SC levels are customizable, so you may order any R&S level you need. Just be sure to select the Simply Classical Arithmetic plans for the level you choose. If you find the suitable level, I agree with Jen, "But when you get to R&S 2, make sure you use the Teacher Manual. The TM lessons have all the number-sense and mental math work! I think a lot of people who end up not liking RS just use the workbooks and then end up hating the repetition when they’re actually missing half the program."

[enbateau]

Yes, yes, yes to the R&S Arithmetic 2 Teacher Manuals. We only did an abbreviated version of Arithmetic 1 to catch up over the summer. During the year we did ALL of the board work, oral drill, flashcard drills, workbook pages and recitation for the math program. Do not skip a thing. The comprehensive nature of R&S is what makes it stick and click for the student.

[hguzman]

Wow, there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on here! Thank you! My son tested at the second grade level for the Rod & Staff math assessment. Since he doesn't have the instant recall for the lower levels I think we will order the arithmetic 1 set and do that over the summer as a review and begin the year with the SC 3 math (which is the arithmetic 2 set). If I feel that he is still struggling with the work over the summer I will hold off on the grade 2 set until he is ready. The joys of homeschooling! I will also go ahead and order the SC 3 read-aloud set and enrichment set for him and the first grade sets for my daughter. I am planning on adding in MP Jr. Kindergarten for my 4 year old son. With all the literature for these three programs we will have a HUGE library for school!

[jen1134]

Wow, there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on here! Thank you! My son tested at the second grade level for the Rod & Staff math assessment. Since he doesn't have the instant recall for the lower levels I think we will order the arithmetic 1 set and do that over the summer as a review and begin the year with the SC 3 math (which is the arithmetic 2 set). If I feel that he is still struggling with the work over the summer I will hold off on the grade 2 set until he is ready. The joys of homeschooling! I will also go ahead and order the SC 3 read-aloud set and enrichment set for him and the first grade sets for my daughter. I am planning on adding in MP Jr. Kindergarten for my 4 year old son. With all the literature for these three programs we will have a HUGE library for school!

Consider including your MP1 student in your SC3 Enrichment. Believe me, you won’t have time to get to both! Most moms pick an enrichment and include everyone. We’re using SC3’s with all my kids this next year.

[hguzman]

Consider including your MP1 student in your SC3 Enrichment. Believe me, you won’t have time to get to both! Most moms pick an enrichment and include everyone. We’re using SC3’s with all my kids this next year.

Does the SC3 enrichment book cover pre-reading, vocabulary and comprehension skills like the MP1 enrichment book or does it just focus on retelling the chapters each day like the sample shows? One of the many reasons I love Memoria Press is that they do a solid job with teaching children to think about the story as they are reading it. Is that omitted for simplicity since they cover these concepts during the literature, composition, and grammar block?

[Michael]

Does the SC3 enrichment book cover pre-reading, vocabulary and comprehension skills like the MP1 enrichment book or does it just focus on retelling the chapters each day like the sample shows? One of the many reasons I love Memoria Press is that they do a solid job with teaching children to think about the story as they are reading it. Is that omitted for simplicity since they cover these concepts during the literature, composition, and grammar block?

Good morning,

I am not an expert in the SC curriculum, but I think I can answer your first question! In SC 3 Enrichment, the general "Before you read," "As you read," and "After you read" questions and prompts are located in the guide's initial Teacher Notes. There are two sets of directions, one for (prose) biographies and another for poetry, and the appropriate set should be applied to each read-aloud. The specific activities assigned in the "Week X" lessons are intended to complement these general directions, and the activities will vary from week to week. For example, we spend two weeks on Pocahontas: Young Peacemaker. The first week we assign retellings on Days 1-4 and a "research project" for Day 5's Delve Deeply. The next week, students are illustrating scenes from the book on Days 1-4 and then, on Day 5, they can compare and contrast the story as told Pocahontas: Young Peacemaker with the famous Disney account.

I hope the above explanation is helpful. Cheryl Swope has been at a conference for the last few days. Once she returns, she will be able to answer your second question about the intention behind SC3 Enrichment's structure.

[cherylswope]

Does the SC3 enrichment book cover pre-reading, vocabulary and comprehension skills like the MP1 enrichment book or does it just focus on retelling the chapters each day like the sample shows? One of the many reasons I love Memoria Press is that they do a solid job with teaching children to think about the story as they are reading it. Is that omitted for simplicity since they cover these concepts during the literature, composition, and grammar block?

Thank you, Michael, for the details in your answer!

hguzman, SC Enrichment provides you with 2-3 questions per chapter. These can be read ahead of the chapter to attune the child's ear while listening or can be saved until after the chapter to prompt discussion. In SC 3 we are bringing students out of SC 2 in which we used visual cues for question words and other comprehension prompts. We continue to emphasize the more concrete questions of Who, What, When, & Where, but we expand to a little more of How and Why in our stories. We do use retelling, as the sample indicates, but this is after pre-reading, reading, and discussing. In addition to the actual read-aloud, the student learns compatible science, art, and music to aid comprehension even further.

I hope that helps -- please pardon the delay --

[jen1134]

Thank you, Michael, for the details in your answer!

hguzman, SC Enrichment provides you with 2-3 questions per chapter. These can be read ahead of the chapter to attune the child's ear while listening or can be saved until after the chapter to prompt discussion. In SC 3 we are bringing students out of SC 2 in which we used visual cues for question words and other comprehension prompts. We continue to emphasize the more concrete questions of Who, What, When, & Where, but we expand to a little more of How and Why in our stories. We do use retelling, as the sample indicates, but this is after pre-reading, reading, and discussing. In addition to the actual read-aloud, the student learns compatible science, art, and music to aid comprehension even further.

I hope that helps -- please pardon the delay --

cherylswope Can you elaborate on why the SC Enrichment doesn't contain the extensive vocabulary and questions of the regular Enrichment levels? Is it an issue of potential overwhelm?

[cherylswope]

Btw, MP K, 1, & 2 Enrichment are wonderfully complete, filled with delight, and suitable for multiple ages. If you are drawn more to one of these for your children, feel free to teach from it. We often suggest SC 3 Enrichment for our older students, but you may select anything your heart desires!