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How to you gauge when there is "enough" comprehension to move on?

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    How to you gauge when there is "enough" comprehension to move on?

    My son struggles with audible and verbal language. You'd never know it to hear him read. You would believe he understood every single thing he read because he has wonderful inflection, tone, and intonation. It's when you start probing a little deeper that you find he has most but not all of it.

    I've mentioned in other posts that I have him read these literature passages many times - at least 3-4. I read them, I have him read them, and I use audible. I know they are meant to be a bit of a challenge. Many of the questions, he understands and can formulate an answer. I help him expand on that too. It's just hard to gauge when it's okay to move on to the next chapter. He understands most of it. I even "draw it out" on the board to help him after he's read through it a few times and ask him questions. Sometimes, I get an off answer when I ask a question. I may ask "How does that make Sarah feel?" and he may answer "Her cloak". He likes the stories, and he gets impatient to get to the next chapter so I feel like 3-4 readings is all I'm going to get before I lose him completely. I also take advantage of the days where it goes back and they have to re-read 1-2 chapters (although I have him listen to the Audible reading and use his finger to follow along). I have him do the literature guides too, just to drive these answers home. Sometimes, I do have him answer the questions and then copy my book for good sentence practice and enhance his understanding. I write his answers on the side of the teacher's manual and I create alternative sentences to go along with his answer

    When my other kiddo behind him understands SO MUCH in comparison, it's just hard to reconcile when enough is enough to move forward. Is 80% enough? It's always progress, but nothing like the in depth understanding my other kiddo has in comparison. It's not that he doesn't empathize with the characters (the kid came sobbing downstairs the other night after watching a cartoon White Fang show on Netflix when the wolf is lost). He has empathy. He has truly 80% of the content. Is that considered enough for literature? Do you move forward in the book when the kid truly wants to move forward and the thought of reading the chapter - again - is actually annoying?

    Melissa

    DS (MP2) - 8
    DS (MP1) - 7
    DS (K) - 5
    DD (Adorable distraction) 2

    #2
    Those “feeling” questions are really difficult for SN kiddos! How does he do on “What color was Sarah’s coat?” “Where did Sarah go”, type questions?

    In the “feeling” and not direct comprehension questions, we have to ask a series of other questions to lead then to the actual question asked. I struggle with this for my daughter as well. I posted a similar, but different question, let me see if I can find it!

    i found it! https://forum.memoriapress.com/forum...scussion-group
    Last edited by howiecram; 03-06-2019, 02:21 PM.
    Christine

    (2019/2020)
    DD1 8/23/09 - SC5/6
    DS2 9/1/11 - SC3,4, 5/6 combo
    DD3 2/9/13 -SC2 to start, MP1 second semester

    Previous Years
    DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4’
    DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, SC2)
    DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK)

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
      Re: SC4 Literature Discussion Group

      Congratulations on your group! This is wonderful. What a great experience for all three children!

      Just as we break down written tasks, so we need to break down oral language and comprehension expectations. Before ever asking the question, you will want to set them up for success. Give them so much information, every hand should eagerly rise when you finally ask the question.

      Example:
      "What was the consequence of his gluttony?"

      Before you ever ask this out loud, you will examine the question for words they will not know. Define them. Give examples from the story. "What was the consequence of..." (anything) will be hard to answer! Before you ask, you might illustrate cause/effect on the board. You could do this with an arrow.
      Eating too much --- arrow --- (what happens when we eat too much?)

      Only after you know that they know the answer conceptually, then you ask them to articulate an answer to the question as written in the guide. By the time you ask the question, you will want it to seem both 1) obvious to you and 2) fun for them to answer.
      Aaaahhh... Okay.

      Yes. I swear we spent 3 months on Animal Folk Tales. That was particularly challenging for all the reasons you mentioned. I think I'm putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Even after listening to the material, I'm jumping to the questions too quickly.

      Maybe I shouldn't let him use his guide at all while I "discuss" the questions before he reads them. Make visuals on the white board. Create a mapping or template to the questions we will face. I'm gonna need a bigger board.

      Still, some words are so hard in context. We are on "The Courage of Sarah Noble", and we are talking about Sarah's impatience at the Indian children because they could not speak English. That's actually harder to explain because it's not like the more traditional use of the word where you are "waiting for something to happen and you want it to happen now". It's more of an intolerance of their lack in English language. I tried pulling up youtube videos of Native American language and showing him how they are so different, but that's still hard to explain her impatience.

      Bible is hard for similar reasons. I actually am using the Jesus Storybook Bible. (It's on Audible too). That way we can follow along, they seem to pay a little closer attention to the man's voice than mine. Then I have to spend half an hour trying to make sure everyone understands to a minimal level. Then we listen again.

      For these reasons, I've severely backed up my thinking about the 3A lesson. I've got so much to learn. There is no real point rushing him through these sections on the 3A track in the fall when what we really need is more mastery time. He can push on ahead through his strong subjects (Latin, Science, and Math), but the classical and literature studies are really where we spend a lot of time. I'm really training myself to gently trust this program more and more. I'm not even going to substitute outside of the program next year. I'll be grabbing that SC 5/6 curriculum guide too to supplement ideas so I'm not trying to shoulder the outside of the box thinking on my own.
      Melissa

      DS (MP2) - 8
      DS (MP1) - 7
      DS (K) - 5
      DD (Adorable distraction) 2

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by MBentley View Post

        Aaaahhh... Okay.

        Yes. I swear we spent 3 months on Animal Folk Tales. That was particularly challenging for all the reasons you mentioned. I think I'm putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Even after listening to the material, I'm jumping to the questions too quickly.

        Maybe I shouldn't let him use his guide at all while I "discuss" the questions before he reads them. Make visuals on the white board. Create a mapping or template to the questions we will face. I'm gonna need a bigger board.

        Still, some words are so hard in context. We are on "The Courage of Sarah Noble", and we are talking about Sarah's impatience at the Indian children because they could not speak English. That's actually harder to explain because it's not like the more traditional use of the word where you are "waiting for something to happen and you want it to happen now". It's more of an intolerance of their lack in English language. I tried pulling up youtube videos of Native American language and showing him how they are so different, but that's still hard to explain her impatience.

        Bible is hard for similar reasons. I actually am using the Jesus Storybook Bible. (It's on Audible too). That way we can follow along, they seem to pay a little closer attention to the man's voice than mine. Then I have to spend half an hour trying to make sure everyone understands to a minimal level. Then we listen again.

        For these reasons, I've severely backed up my thinking about the 3A lesson. I've got so much to learn. There is no real point rushing him through these sections on the 3A track in the fall when what we really need is more mastery time. He can push on ahead through his strong subjects (Latin, Science, and Math), but the classical and literature studies are really where we spend a lot of time. I'm really training myself to gently trust this program more and more. I'm not even going to substitute outside of the program next year. I'll be grabbing that SC 5/6 curriculum guide too to supplement ideas so I'm not trying to shoulder the outside of the box thinking on my own.
        Oh good! I am glad you will be getting the 5/6 guide! In the front of the manual, what is listed above (how to lead to the guide questions) is given! I think you will find it very helpful!
        Christine

        (2019/2020)
        DD1 8/23/09 - SC5/6
        DS2 9/1/11 - SC3,4, 5/6 combo
        DD3 2/9/13 -SC2 to start, MP1 second semester

        Previous Years
        DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4’
        DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, SC2)
        DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK)

        Comment


          #5
          Two points:
          1. MP2 lit guides have challenging questions even for neurotypical kids. My MP2 daughter struggles with inferencing, when the answer is not clearly stated in the text (but it is implied based on your past experiences with similar situations). There will be quite a few questions that will need to be broken down in that example/analogy set up mentioned above. Sometimes I set up a mock example from her life. For instance, in LHBW the guide asks:

          After jigging for a while, Uncle George's boots do not thump quite as loudly as they had at first. Why?

          1) He is wearing out the dance floor.
          2) The music is slowing down.
          3) He is wearing out the heels of his boots.
          4) He is getting tired.

          DD was torn between 3 & 4. I had to literally walk her through evaluating all the answers for their likeliness, and we even had to have a discussion about different genres and their use of fiction (LHBW is historical narrative fiction--based on a true story--it's not like there are unicorns and fantastic beasts, and reality doesn't get bent in strange ways). We went back into the text for each possibility to prove our answer. Do dance floors ever wear down so much that you wouldn't hear sound the same? No. Were grandma's heels still making sounds on the dance floor? Yes. Did Pa's fiddle slow? No, the text says grandma kept jigging, and Pa fiddled even faster. Could Uncle George wear out boots in two songs? Probably not. Was he getting tired? Yes! The text said he was sweating, trying to keep up with grandma's fast dancing, and he eventually says, "I'm beat," which means he's tired.

          If even NT kids need these explanations from time to time, I know our out-of-the-box learners need it too. That's why I love that some chapters get stretched out for a week (and this Ch 8 Part 2 stretches a whole week so we can do that). My daughter will also get frustrated that we do it so in-depth, but I see the fruit of taking time with certain questions that teach a pattern. The hallmark of good scaffolding is that you can remove the supports and test if the layering of knowledge keeps going up. The best thing MP ever said in their training was that these lit guides aren't "pop quiz" guides, where there average child should have internalized all this data from reading and we are supposed to check what they should be "capable of" based on their grade/age. We are teaching sample types of questions and how to find the answers in the text.

          Point 2. I hate the Jesus Storybook Bible. I think it's a really poor fit for any child with a LBLD or who's on the sensory spectrum. I uses beautiful, rich, metaphorical language, but it also uses idioms, and that is a recipe for your child understanding NOTHING about scripture. If every time in a comparatively short story your child has to parse out the hows and whys of an idiom as it relates to a Bible story, he may get lost in trying to draw a parallel. SC uses A Child's Garden of Bible Stories by Arthur W. Gross. I have that one, but I also really like the Rod & Staff Bible Stories to Read (brown cover w/ 2 foxes that usually pairs with a coloring book from SC B). It uses very simple, direct language. It asks very direct questions afterwards about what happened. My little guy usually gets all of those right. Either of those would be a great bridge to The Story Bible. Believe me, I fought that one for a while, but it's just so nice and succinct. I went through and correlated every story to my adult Bible, but it was taking too long for my eldest to get through her assignment for Bible. I really like the pictures and its readable version of a real translation of the Bible. We also got the Golden Children's Bible w/ MP3 for next year. I had a nice talk w/ Leigh Lowe and Martin Cothran about why they chose that version, and they did not disappoint. MP is so thought-through in that they gradually expose children to deeper and more complex sentence structure, poetic language, direct translations, etc. They create the foundations of Bible history, people and events using children's editions that are the closest to direct translations, and then they release them with a good working knowledge of the Old and New Testament.
          Mama to 2, Married 17 years

          SY 19/20
          DD 8-3A
          DS 5-SC C

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by enbateau View Post
            Two points:


            If even NT kids need these explanations from time to time, I know our out-of-the-box learners need it too. That's why I love that some chapters get stretched out for a week (and this Ch 8 Part 2 stretches a whole week so we can do that). My daughter will also get frustrated that we do it so in-depth, but I see the fruit of taking time with certain questions that teach a pattern. The hallmark of good scaffolding is that you can remove the supports and test if the layering of knowledge keeps going up. The best thing MP ever said in their training was that these lit guides aren't "pop quiz" guides, where there average child should have internalized all this data from reading and we are supposed to check what they should be "capable of" based on their grade/age. We are teaching sample types of questions and how to find the answers in the text.

            Point 2. I hate the Jesus Storybook Bible. I think it's a really poor fit for any child with a LBLD or who's on the sensory spectrum. I uses beautiful, rich, metaphorical language, but it also uses idioms, and that is a recipe for your child understanding NOTHING about scripture. If every time in a comparatively short story your child has to parse out the hows and whys of an idiom as it relates to a Bible story, he may get lost in trying to draw a parallel. SC uses A Child's Garden of Bible Stories by Arthur W. Gross. I have that one, but I also really like the Rod & Staff Bible Stories to Read (brown cover w/ 2 foxes that usually pairs with a coloring book from SC B). It uses very simple, direct language. It asks very direct questions afterwards about what happened. My little guy usually gets all of those right. Either of those would be a great bridge to The Story Bible. Believe me, I fought that one for a while, but it's just so nice and succinct. I went through and correlated every story to my adult Bible, but it was taking too long for my eldest to get through her assignment for Bible. I really like the pictures and its readable version of a real translation of the Bible. We also got the Golden Children's Bible w/ MP3 for next year. I had a nice talk w/ Leigh Lowe and Martin Cothran about why they chose that version, and they did not disappoint. MP is so thought-through in that they gradually expose children to deeper and more complex sentence structure, poetic language, direct translations, etc. They create the foundations of Bible history, people and events using children's editions that are the closest to direct translations, and then they release them with a good working knowledge of the Old and New Testament.
            That is good, solid, golden advice on both points. We aren't yet on LHBW yet. We are behind a bit, partly because we don't take the Texas summers off and instead take off several weeks in the fall and winter. I have clearly not understood how the lit guides were meant to be utilized and I think a lot of help will come with the SC curriculum manuals and the advice here. I've been silently dreading LHBW because we I tried to read the Little House Christmas stories from 1st grade enrichment, no one seemed to get anything out of them - only perking up with a mountain lion showed up. You know that feeling when you see their eyes glaze over and they aren't truly listening at all? Lots of that, from all 3 kids. I will work on the lit guide structure though. I really appreciate all your help on that.

            For the Bible part, I was kind of desperate. This is my first year with MP and I saw that the program worked on a cycle. I had 3 kids in back to back grades and I couldn't figure out how to break them down for Bible studies. While I've resigned myself to having all the kids separate in nearly everything, this is one area I was attempting to combine a little more so that I could have more real teaching time. I did a few lessons like the guide said and the time seemed mostly wasted on him and my youngest too. Since he didn't have to write anything down, he did the eye-glazing/barely listening thing. I had worked with him last year using a BJU Press Bible Study but that proved to be overwhelming. He understood some of Genesis enough to get a base understanding of God/Jesus/Creation/Sin/Noah/ etc. I've had him watch those old Hana-Barbara stories of the Bible - those cartoons from the early 80's - and that helped a little too. With the Jesus Storybook Bible, I decided to start in the New Testament portion of the book since that is where 2nd grade would have ended the first round for MP. I do plan to do it like the curriculum says for 3rd forward with the next level Bible and workbook set. I really like workbooks though, and without them, the information didn't seem to go in enough to stay there. At least with the Jesus Storybook Bible (and we listen to it on Audible and everyone follows along in their own copy with their finger), I get more engagement. I get a bite size story, that I can then outline on the white board, identify the biggest point of the story, and expand it a bit. I think the emotions are what actually made it more effective in his case. It makes you feel special, and that God has really worked a great work to create you, save you, love you, and guide you. The idioms may be lost on him, but that emotional connection between God and him, well, it's like you start to see it. He actually seems to connect with an emotional intelligence of who Jesus is, and how Jesus feels about him. I realize that every version of the Bible is supposed to do that. This is one that just seemed to work well for enriching his understanding at this point in his life. His younger brother understands so much more - but to see that he's getting it, that there's some pathway here that seems to be working more than the other routes I've tried (and I have honestly, sincerely, tried many Bible versions for kids) I was kind of grateful to find something, anything, that helped him connect. We haven't had a church home in a while, and this is the only time he gets this deeper dive study of that relationship between the Creator and the created.

            You are very right though. It tells it as a story, and isn't set up for an in depth study. You aren't going to hear Bible Verses, and there is no copybook work for it. That lack of formal study may come back and challenge us next year because I have not put in the scaffolding yet for that next level of study by going a different route. Honestly, I will probably miss that storybook version because simple as it is, in enriches me a bit too.
            Melissa

            DS (MP2) - 8
            DS (MP1) - 7
            DS (K) - 5
            DD (Adorable distraction) 2

            Comment


              #7
              Aww, and please don't hear any criticism in that regard that it's not a real Bible. That is not at all where I'm coming from. I'm not one of those KJV-only folks. Haha. My daughter started with The Beginner's Bible:Timeless Children's Stories by Zonderkids. She was an early reader and loved it. Someone bought JSB for us, and I loved the pictures by Jago and metaphorical language, but a few things I will not enumerate here irked me, and we put it aside in favor of the Zonderkids one, which came with a dramatized read aloud CD...that my kids still beg me to put on anytime we drive anywhere. I think that any Bible, especially for your youngest two, that helps them feel secure in the love of God is a win-win!

              My little guy, though, really benefited from the one scheduled in SC B. Google reads has a good preview of it. I don't think kids need workbooks at all for quite some time. My eldest will do CSI next year for memory work of all the stuff I wished I had memorized.

              We don't do Christian Studies for 2nd grade, btw. It was just too much this year. My daughter and son listen while I read each morning from a New Living Translation Bible, my favorite, and my daughter and I do BSF (Bible Study Fellowship International) with an ESV Bible. Blahhh...sometimes it feels like a lot. My favorite action books for boys and tomgirls are Exodus, Judges, 1/2 Samuel, 1/2 Kings. There's so much good killing and bloodshed. They love it. And NLT is such an easier read and updated to be more accurate to the literal translation. It's free on Bible App and has a dramatic reading by a guy that my kids also used to like listening to on the way to school when they were in private school.

              So, hopefully this just sounds like me being excited about what we do, not me judging you at all for anything you do.
              Mama to 2, Married 17 years

              SY 19/20
              DD 8-3A
              DS 5-SC C

              Comment


                #8
                Oh honey I didn't take it that way at all. I'm growing and learning, and it helps to know that there was a pathway that I didn't look at with the SC program. Confession here - I have been so resistant to programs that were aimed at special needs kids because they weren't...rich. That's kind of what drew me to MP in the first place. I've come to understand a great deal more about the SC program and bless Cheryl's heart for her book which I picked up last week. I've been reading it and understanding so much more about the program, the challenges with raising a SN kiddo and the reality that rich material not only could be but MUST be given to them. You guys in the Simply Classical forum are kind of wonderful for me. You continually give me guidance and new ways of thinking and working through the material.

                And NLT...my favorite too!
                Melissa

                DS (MP2) - 8
                DS (MP1) - 7
                DS (K) - 5
                DD (Adorable distraction) 2

                Comment

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