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Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

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    Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

    When we switched to MP, I placed my then 10 year old in 4th for New Users because he wasn't ready for MP5. We used our own math that year but decided to switch to R&S this past year when he did MP5. I placed him in RS5 but we realized that he didn't have his multiplication facts memorized and couldn't understand/remember the process for long division -- no matter how many times/ways I explained it to him. Because of all this, we're only on Lesson 17 of RS5. I looked at a friend's copy of RS4 and didn't see that they taught the concepts any differently than what I was already doing remedially, so I've just had him pause for long stretches to work on weak spots.

    We started our summer session today with Lesson 17...and found that he has an extremely hard time figuring out what operations to use in two-step word problems.

    I'm really not sure how to help him through this. What hurts my heart is that he has always loved robotics and engineering and is always building/inventing; but if he feels called to that sphere in the future, he won't be able to answer that call if his math challenges persist.

    Here's the catch: he makes great grades in everything and has an amazing memory. But math throws him for a loop.

    Anyone else experienced this?
    Jennifer
    Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

    2019-2020 Plans:

    DS16
    MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
    MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

    DS15
    As above, plus:
    MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
    MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

    DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

    DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

    DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

    DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

    DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

    #2
    Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

    Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
    Here's the catch: he makes great grades in everything and has an amazing memory. But math throws him for a loop.

    Anyone else experienced this?
    My daughter's extreme weakness was math. You might find some helpful information here. Given his interests, it will be good to teach him compensatory strategies along with adding daily board/card/Dominoes/dice games to build number sense and automaticity.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

      Thank you, Cheryl. I can’t get a clear read on the dyscalculia possibility. I’ll have to look into that more. We have a referral for neuropsych but insurance doesn’t cover it and the university programs near us aren’t always reliable.

      I made up a simple test this morning so I could gauge where the gaps start. I did four of each type of problem, beginning with simple, one-digit operations, progressing row by row to carrying, borrowing, remainders, etc.

      He doesn’t understand borrowing; instead, he uses the larger bottom number to subtract the smaller top number. All four of those problems were wrong.

      On problems like 46x5, where carrying was needed, he got two right and two wrong.

      He got two single-divisor/double-digit dividend/no remainder problems wrong but that was due to multiplication error.

      Another of the same type of problem, just with a remainder, was wrong because he forgot to write down the remainder.

      Then we reached problems with single-digit divisors/triple-digit dividends; there were five problems: one was wrong because of multiplication, one because of subtraction with borrowing, one he forgot to write down the remainder, and one because he brought down two digits instead of one when working the second step of the problem.

      A friend gave me some great feedback on the word problem issue so we’re going to try her method for building comprehension there.

      So the remaining question is: how do I remediate the subtraction with borrowing, the multiplication and the triple-digit dividend division? I thought about pulling out my Montessori albums but I don’t have the materials anymore and, the presentations would be teacher intensive in the middle of upcoming therapies, working with my 6 and 9yo SC’ers etc. I tried Khan academy for the divsion at one point but it didn’t seem to help much.

      I need something straightforward and inexpensive (we’re already pushing the limits on our school budget for fall).
      Jennifer
      Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

      2019-2020 Plans:

      DS16
      MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
      MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

      DS15
      As above, plus:
      MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
      MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

      DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

      DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

      DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

      DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

      DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

        Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
        Thank you, Cheryl. I can’t get a clear read on the dyscalculia possibility. I’ll have to look into that more. We have a referral for neuropsych but insurance doesn’t cover it and the university programs near us aren’t always reliable.

        I made up a simple test this morning so I could gauge where the gaps start. I did four of each type of problem, beginning with simple, one-digit operations, progressing row by row to carrying, borrowing, remainders, etc.

        He doesn’t understand borrowing; instead, he uses the larger bottom number to subtract the smaller top number. All four of those problems were wrong.

        On problems like 46x5, where carrying was needed, he got two right and two wrong.

        He got two single-divisor/double-digit dividend/no remainder problems wrong but that was due to multiplication error.

        Another of the same type of problem, just with a remainder, was wrong because he forgot to write down the remainder.

        Then we reached problems with single-digit divisors/triple-digit dividends; there were five problems: one was wrong because of multiplication, one because of subtraction with borrowing, one he forgot to write down the remainder, and one because he brought down two digits instead of one when working the second step of the problem.

        A friend gave me some great feedback on the word problem issue so we’re going to try her method for building comprehension there.

        So the remaining question is: how do I remediate the subtraction with borrowing, the multiplication and the triple-digit dividend division? I thought about pulling out my Montessori albums but I don’t have the materials anymore and, the presentations would be teacher intensive in the middle of upcoming therapies, working with my 6 and 9yo SC’ers etc. I tried Khan academy for the divsion at one point but it didn’t seem to help much.

        I need something straightforward and inexpensive (we’re already pushing the limits on our school budget for fall).

        Yes, that quick link was for dyscalculia but also included some strategies that might be helpful no matter the issue.

        First, he is only 10 so this is certainly something that can be addressed and does not necessarily rule out a future in engineering-related fields.
        Second, he was learning from a different math program and somehow fell through the cracks of the basics. The good news on this is that you have caught it! In a different setting he might have fallen further behind.

        Here are some suggestions that do not cost anything:
        1. Focus on Arithmetic
        Bump Arithmetic to the top of his list while it has your attention.

        2. R&S Aids from Lower Levels
        If your SC 9yo is in SC Arithmetic, you might pull the9yo's R&S T Manual visual, SC arithmetic games, and SC read-alouds strategies targeting the areas you identified.

        3. One Thing at a Time
        Somehow he missed some basic operations, concepts, and knowledge. From your informal assessment, create a list of items he needs to work on. Create a summer syllabus of these. Focus on mastery. Pull unused blacklines from the 6yo and 9yo R&S programs to help you. When he "gets" subtraction with borrowing, move on but continue to review.

        4. Consider Base Ten Blocks
        To teach place value, create the visual aids in the R&S Teacher Manual or find a set of Base Ten Blocks. Demonstrate place value problems. After he seems to understand, but before having him work a problem on paper, have him demonstrate the next problem with the Base Ten Blocks.

        5. Drop Back a Level or Two
        Attached is the SC Scope & Sequence for Arithmetic. See especially Calculations/Processes. Begin there. You might also give him this placement test to see where he would fall in R&S. Then teach from the coordinating SC Arithmetic. It will feel like a step backwards but will give him a firmer foundation for building higher.

        6. Remember ADHD-issues
        Distinguish between "math" issues and "attention to detail" issues. If he is rushing, skipping steps, or otherwise missing items he would usually know, this is a different matter. Try to separate the two when you evaluate his arithmetic knowledge and proficiency. Note the approximate % of time he arrives at an incorrect answer due to "careless mistakes." It sounds like he would also be helped by ADHD-related strategies such as slowing down, covering problems to reveal only one at a time, creating careful self-talk acronyms for processes, and checking his work before turning it in. These are all very age-appropriate and might help him in other areas of his life.

        7. Create a Summer Math Camp
        After you plan any or all of the above, have a heart-to-heart with him about his interests, ambitions, and desires. Partner with his love of engineering-related themes. Set up a Math Camp for this summer. It is not too late. Plan 8 weeks, 30-45 min/day, 4 days/week. Use your local library to find early books on place value, readable bios for children about mathematicians, and how-to books. Include these in his Math Camp this summer along with the blacklines, number games, your new word problem approach, etc. This will take time for you to set up, but something must be done. I have written here about our "Math Many Ways" BINGO board I created for Michelle one summer. Some squares included more motivational items, while others featured things like "25 drill pages." She enjoyed (enjoys) incentives, so I attached one prize for completing one row and a bigger prize for completing the entire board. All of this ties back to #1 above. You can accomplish this any way that works well for you.

        See also this thread on math facts.

        And this thread on R&S/number sense math helps with overlaps with this thread on Place Value Woes.

        You CAN address this. It is good that you caught it! Furthermore, because he is bright and memorizes well, he can learn!

        He is only 10, so this is the perfect time to tackle all of this. This is the invaluable benefit of the tutorial approach for our children.

        Just give yourself a break, Jen, as you plan to help him. You have many other things to do at the same time, so make it realistic and successful for both of you. And remember that if you take into account his ADHD/impulsive answers, there may be less to address than it seems.

        Others may have more suggestions and I see that you X-posted, so maybe more help is coming over on K-8.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

          Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
          Yes, that quick link was for dyscalculia but also included some strategies that might be helpful no matter the issue.

          First, he is only 10 so this is certainly something that can be addressed and does not necessarily rule out a future in engineering-related fields.
          Second, he was learning from a different math program and somehow fell through the cracks of the basics. The good news on this is that you have caught it! In a different setting he might have fallen further behind.

          Here are some suggestions that do not cost anything:
          1. Focus on Arithmetic
          Bump Arithmetic to the top of his list while it has your attention.

          2. R&S Aids from Lower Levels
          If your SC 9yo is in SC Arithmetic, you might pull the9yo's R&S T Manual visual, SC arithmetic games, and SC read-alouds strategies targeting the areas you identified.

          3. One Thing at a Time
          Somehow he missed some basic operations, concepts, and knowledge. From your informal assessment, create a list of items he needs to work on. Create a summer syllabus of these. Focus on mastery. Pull unused blacklines from the 6yo and 9yo R&S programs to help you. When he "gets" subtraction with borrowing, move on but continue to review.

          4. Consider Base Ten Blocks
          To teach place value, create the visual aids in the R&S Teacher Manual or find a set of Base Ten Blocks. Demonstrate place value problems. After he seems to understand, but before having him work a problem on paper, have him demonstrate the next problem with the Base Ten Blocks.

          5. Drop Back a Level or Two
          Attached is the SC Scope & Sequence for Arithmetic. See especially Calculations/Processes. Begin there. You might also give him this placement test to see where he would fall in R&S. Then teach from the coordinating SC Arithmetic. It will feel like a step backwards but will give him a firmer foundation for building higher.

          6. Remember ADHD-issues
          Distinguish between "math" issues and "attention to detail" issues. If he is rushing, skipping steps, or otherwise missing items he would usually know, this is a different matter. Try to separate the two when you evaluate his arithmetic knowledge and proficiency. Note the approximate % of time he arrives at an incorrect answer due to "careless mistakes." It sounds like he would also be helped by ADHD-related strategies such as slowing down, covering problems to reveal only one at a time, creating careful self-talk acronyms for processes, and checking his work before turning it in. These are all very age-appropriate and might help him in other areas of his life.

          7. Create a Summer Math Camp
          After you plan any or all of the above, have a heart-to-heart with him about his interests, ambitions, and desires. Partner with his love of engineering-related themes. Set up a Math Camp for this summer. It is not too late. Plan 8 weeks, 30-45 min/day, 4 days/week. Use your local library to find early books on place value, readable bios for children about mathematicians, and how-to books. Include these in his Math Camp this summer along with the blacklines, number games, your new word problem approach, etc. This will take time for you to set up, but something must be done. I have written here about our "Math Many Ways" BINGO board I created for Michelle one summer. Some squares included more motivational items, while others featured things like "25 drill pages." She enjoyed (enjoys) incentives, so I attached one prize for completing one row and a bigger prize for completing the entire board. All of this ties back to #1 above. You can accomplish this any way that works well for you.

          See also this thread on math facts.

          And this thread on R&S/number sense math helps with overlaps with this thread on Place Value Woes.

          You CAN address this. It is good that you caught it! Furthermore, because he is bright and memorizes well, he can learn!

          He is only 10, so this is the perfect time to tackle all of this. This is the invaluable benefit of the tutorial approach for our children.

          Just give yourself a break, Jen, as you plan to help him. You have many other things to do at the same time, so make it realistic and successful for both of you. And remember that if you take into account his ADHD/impulsive answers, there may be less to address than it seems.

          Others may have more suggestions and I see that you X-posted, so maybe more help is coming over on K-8.
          Lots of wisdom here — I’m going to re-read a few times to digest it fully! Unfortunately, he was 10 when we started MP but we stayed with our other math program. We switched to RS this past year and that revealed the gaps. He’ll be 12 next month, but I think he’ll be okay with this plan. Even if he’s not, it still needs to be done.

          One of my other boys had the ADD carelessness in math so I’ll definitely watch for that here as well. I think that was the cause of his missing remainders.
          Jennifer
          Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

          2019-2020 Plans:

          DS16
          MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
          MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

          DS15
          As above, plus:
          MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
          MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

          DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

          DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

          DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

          DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

          DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

            Ah, 12 makes sense. Pardon my own careless addition!

            Yes, you will want to address this. If anything, it is even more imperative now to take a closer look at all of this, but it is still not too late.

            And even without a dyscalculia evaluation or diagnoses, some of the lower hyperlinks in the first article in this thread may be enlightening.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

              Cheryl,

              Can you re-post the Simply Classical sequence for R&S? I didn't see it above. It looks like SC4 uses R&S 2; his siblings are in R&S 1 and 2 and I think that will help with the reading problems, but it doesn't cover subtraction with borrowing. I wasn't sure what SC Level 5-6 will cover.
              Jennifer
              Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

              2019-2020 Plans:

              DS16
              MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
              MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

              DS15
              As above, plus:
              MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
              MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

              DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

              DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

              DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

              DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

              DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

                That should work! We'll have a "prettier" copy of this and other SC Scope & Sequence charts at Sodalitas.

                SC 5-6 uses R&S 3. We have several on a waiting list for those SC R&S lesson plans. I hope to have them ready by early fall, if that helps.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Cross-posted in K-8: Difficulty with Math

                  Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
                  That should work! We'll have a "prettier" copy of this and other SC Scope & Sequence charts at Sodalitas.

                  SC 5-6 uses R&S 3. We have several on a waiting list for those SC R&S lesson plans. I hope to have them ready by early fall, if that helps.
                  Definitely add me to the waiting list! It looks like I can use 1 & 2 over the summer to 100% solidify facts and re-introduce word problem concepts and then pick up the borrowing, etc with SC's RS3 in the fall. Thank you so much!
                  Jennifer
                  Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

                  2019-2020 Plans:

                  DS16
                  MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
                  MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

                  DS15
                  As above, plus:
                  MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
                  MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

                  DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

                  DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

                  DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

                  DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

                  DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

                  Comment

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