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Carrying and Borrowing

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    Carrying and Borrowing

    Hi!

    My daughter is ready for her multiplication tables (she's intuitively figuring them out with out even really studying them yet.). However, we are struggling a little with carrying/borrowing. She can do it with manipulatives and she can do it on paper. However, it takes her a long time and I can literally hear her whining/crying. (This is an improvement from throwing the book across the room!) She has no trouble if there is not any carrying or borrowing. No whining, and the same number of problems takes 3x as long. I know it will take slightly more time, but this seems excessive?

    I'm not sure what to do to help. More problems? Less problems? I think she needs her stamina built up. I know that working through these problems "in her sleep" will help when those long division problems come up, etc.. I also know 3rd grade continues these problems. Should we just proceed through R&S 3 as scheduled? Anything we can work on through the summer until she begins? Or is this normal and with the practice R&s sets up will it be fine?
    Christine

    (2018-2019)
    DD1 8/23/09 - SC4
    DS2 9/1/11 - SC2
    DD3 2/9/13 - MPK

    Previous Years
    DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3)
    DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK)
    DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others!)

    #2
    Re: Carrying and Borrowing

    Christine,

    First of all let me encourage you that your child is not the first to take a look at the math page full of problems and melt down! You are correct that the work therein is important and key to mastery, which is our goal. So let's see if we can come up with way to get the necessary work done without tears or tantrums. I am sure you may have thought of or tried some of these suggestions but here are my tips. During a time of day where everyone is happy and math work is not looming, talk about the importance of hard work but that then list the benefits of attempting the challenging and getting it completed. Transition the conversation from something difficult and not fun you do (like cleaning toilets or doing mountains of laundry which have benefits of smelling nice and keeping healthy) to her math work. Before beginning the math lesson work out a reward system for math work completed with no T&T (tears or tantrums) and in a timely manner (anytime before dinner.) Make the goal easy at first like 5 days. Reward can be 15 minutes later at bedtime or an extra recess period or the like. Then lengthen the time a little.

    For a page with many borrowing or carrying problems, divide the page in half give her the choice to complete one half now and the other later or complete the page all at once but all will need to be done by dinner. Work on her time by setting a timer for 20 minutes. See how many problems she can complete in that time, then work the others together with her where you can set the pace. Her speed during the independent period should accelerate as most students don't want mom saying "Ok, first we must subtract the ones column, what is 8 take away 9?" However, if your child rather enjoys the individualized attention, explain that you are happy to sit with her to do this but she will need to help you with your "mom duties" later that you are putting off at this time.

    I will keep thinking on this and let you know of any additional ideas I remember. My gut says practice is what will help and the number of problems within the lessons is not excessive but rather the number necessary for mastery. This is why I did not suggest modifying the number of problems to be completed. However you know your daughter best. My advice is based on the information given and my experience with a variety of student personalities!

    Blessings,
    Michelle T

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Carrying and Borrowing

      Originally posted by Michelle T View Post
      Christine,



      For a page with many borrowing or carrying problems, divide the page in half give her the choice to complete one half now and the other later or complete the page all at once but all will need to be done by dinner. Work on her time by setting a timer for 20 minutes. See how many problems she can complete in that time, then work the others together with her where you can set the pace.


      Michelle T
      Yes! I think this is just the answer I was looking for. It is odd though, because she isn't quite melting at the site of the problems. (She can do a similar page with no borrowing and carrying without the frustration. In fact one time, she finished very quickly and said "I finished that really fast! There was no carrying or borrowing! I thought it was going to take much longer than it did.") So, the frustration is really the actual carrying and borrowing part. I think she knows her facts well enough. I'm still wondering if there is not a dis-connect though in the actual concrete place value. I don't wonder if we just need more practice with the place value and the manipulatives?
      Christine

      (2018-2019)
      DD1 8/23/09 - SC4
      DS2 9/1/11 - SC2
      DD3 2/9/13 - MPK

      Previous Years
      DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3)
      DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK)
      DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others!)

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Carrying and Borrowing

        Originally posted by howiecram View Post
        ...we are struggling a little with carrying/borrowing. She can do it with manipulatives and she can do it on paper. However, it takes her a long time and I can literally hear her whining/crying.
        Hi, Christine. It is good to hear that she can carry/borrow with manipulatives and on paper! She seems to understand what she is doing. The main issue is how long it takes.

        You mentioned that you can hear her whining/crying, which sounds like she is doing this independently.

        Given her diagnosed difficulties with memory, I wonder if it would help to work these side-by-side. My daughter needed this. Then I could say the steps as I've described before. ("Look at the ones: 7-9, can't do that; go and get more ones.") Use whatever language you're using (likely better than what we used!). I spoke with the same language, same intonation each time, so she could internalize the process and remind herself. This seemed to speed things along and eventually made her more independent with the task.

        Have you ever heard my diving board talk? Even though the task is something she can do, a long page of these problems is still at the middle-dive (instructional) for her. You're almost there, but this is not yet the low dive (independent).

        Multi-digit addition and subtraction is hard! It is multi-step, which is difficult for our children with memory, executive function, and attention difficulties. This is why we slowed the R&S progression. If you're using the SC progression, I would not reduce the number of problems. Instead, work some of them on the board together or sit with her to coach her through the written work, so she doesn't feel alone or overwhelmed.

        Over the summer, you have several options:
        -You could give her the summer off to refresh. Some advocate this and achieve good results with a good mental vacation.
        -You might assign the blacklines related to this specific task, 1/2 per day, 1-2 times a week. That is what I would do, so you do not risk needing to reteach in the fall.
        -You could switch to the SC progression, if you're not already using it.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Carrying and Borrowing

          Since you indicated she knew her facts, I knew the issue was something else. Rather than working more trying to explain WHY you need to borrow and using manipulative, just use the verbal cue of "I can't take 9 away if there are only 8, so I need to borrow 10 from the neighbor!" The repetition of talking through the problems with her will help. Through this memorization of just borrowing , even though you don't fully understand "why" yet will aid in mastery of the skill. Cheryl Lowe used to always say "the why comes later".

          Blessings,
          Michelle T

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Carrying and Borrowing

            Originally posted by howiecram View Post
            Yes! I think this is just the answer I was looking for. It is odd though, because she isn't quite melting at the site of the problems. (She can do a similar page with no borrowing and carrying without the frustration. In fact one time, she finished very quickly and said "I finished that really fast! There was no carrying or borrowing! I thought it was going to take much longer than it did.") So, the frustration is really the actual carrying and borrowing part. I think she knows her facts well enough. I'm still wondering if there is not a dis-connect though in the actual concrete place value. I don't wonder if we just need more practice with the place value and the manipulatives?
            Pardon my interrupting the conversation! You wrote as I was writing.

            MichelleT's suggestion is perfect. Divide those problems into two sets!

            Your suggestion is also good! You might practice with the manipulatives once or twice before she begins the first set each day. Just use the same language as she will use when writing.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Carrying and Borrowing

              Originally posted by cherylswope View Post
              Hi, Christine. It is good to hear that she can carry/borrow with manipulatives and on paper! She seems to understand what she is doing. The main issue is how long it takes.

              You mentioned that you can hear her whining/crying, which sounds like she is doing this independently.

              Given her diagnosed difficulties with memory, I wonder if it would help to work these side-by-side. My daughter needed this. Then I could say the steps as I've described before. ("Look at the ones: 7-9, can't do that; go and get more ones.") Use whatever language you're using (likely better than what we used!). I spoke with the same language, same intonation each time, so she could internalize the process and remind herself. This seemed to speed things along and eventually made her more independent with the task.

              Have you ever heard my diving board talk? Even though the task is something she can do, a long page of these problems is still at the middle-dive (instructional) for her. You're almost there, but this is not yet the low dive (independent).

              Multi-digit addition and subtraction is hard! It is multi-step, which is difficult for our children with memory, executive function, and attention difficulties. This is why we slowed the R&S progression. If you're using the SC progression, I would not reduce the number of problems. Instead, work some of them on the board together or sit with her to coach her through the written work, so she doesn't feel alone or overwhelmed.

              Over the summer, you have several options:
              -You could give her the summer off to refresh. Some advocate this and achieve good results with a good mental vacation.
              -You might assign the blacklines related to this specific task, 1/2 per day, 1-2 times a week. That is what I would do, so you do not risk needing to reteach in the fall.
              -You could switch to the SC progression, if you're not already using it.

              Ok, yes! I think I was coming to this conclusion as well. I do forget that just because she CAN do something, doesn't mean she's ready to do it independently. We are working on the backlines!

              So, I had planned (and even already printed, cut out and glued the MP3 math plans into the SC4 guide). Will you have the R&S 3 SC plans ready anytime soon?

              Also, I am not saying this child can't be willful at times, but in my experience with her, when there are tantrums concerning her work, it is because there is "something" that "I" am not getting that is difficult for her. Thank you for helping me work through this!
              Christine

              (2018-2019)
              DD1 8/23/09 - SC4
              DS2 9/1/11 - SC2
              DD3 2/9/13 - MPK

              Previous Years
              DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3)
              DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK)
              DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others!)

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Carrying and Borrowing

                Yes, exactly. She is your eager learner!

                As for R&S 3 plans, possibly by the end of summer, if all goes as planned. The outline is there. I can attack those first.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Carrying and Borrowing

                  I would love RS 3 plans too.
                  Married to DH for 13 years. Living the rural life in the Colorado mountains

                  DS10- Simply Classical 4 / Grade 3 Classic Core,
                  DD8- Grade 2 Classic Core,
                  DD 6- Classic Core Kindergarten

                  Comment

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