Classics I in Seventh Grade

[Stella Maris mom]

Hello,
My rising seventh grader is finishing Famous men of Greece this year with me. Next year I’d like to enroll her in Classics I to keep our “classics momentum” going. She is an excellent reader but will be enrolled in Chreia/Maxim since we went a little off road into IEW this year. (Previously she had completed the first CC levels with dvds and myself.) I noticed that the course has two written essays in edition to quizzes and tests. Given the grade level range of the course, will this aspect be too challenging at her level? Will there be any guidance with essay structure/content at all in class or will these skills just be expected? I’m also wondering given the age range if there are different expectations for different grade level students. I’d rather her take this class online for a few reasons, and the first is that I don’t think I’ll be able to keep up with the material to cover this course with her the best it can be! (She is more science-leaning, and I’m thinking this might be her best opportunity to cover these works well before more advanced science and math take up her time.)
And this is a side note, but for MPOA official high school enrollment in the future, would her successful completion of it “count” towards her highschool transcript, or would only the classics courses she takes in highschool count (for ex. Classics III-IV when she gets there)?

Please forgive any hasty typos! I should have prefaced this all with “Good Morning!” first 😊 Thanks!

Susan

[Stella Maris mom]

Oh no! I realized I need to figure out a way to change my tags below! Please note everyone is a year older and the daughter I speak of above is a 12 (November birthday). Thanks again!

[Mrs Bee]

Hello, Susan - if you click on your screen name that appears on top right corner of the forum page and choose "User Settings" then click on the "Account" tab, you should see a link to "Edit Your Signature" next to "Conversation Detail Options" in bold.

As to your question, my daughter was in the same situation when she took Classics I with MPOA - a 7th grader with a November birthday - together with her brother, who's a year older. She's always been a great reader and a natural (if wordy!) writer, though we did not do MP's CC so I cannot compare her well with your daughter. The MPOA teacher my kids worked with assigned one 5 paragraph essay for each book (2 week deadline), and did provide help: she put together a document detailing her requirements (word count, forbidden phrases, etc.), the purpose of each paragraph (an introduction, body paragraphs, a conclusion), and even what she wanted to see in each paragraph: for instance, the first paragraph had to contain an opening topic sentence tied to the prompt, a brief intro to the book and the author, and the "thesis" of the essay. Each body paragraph had to begin with a sentence that restated part of the thesis, contain reasoned evidence and at least one quote with a personal comment, and have a concluding sentence summing up the point of that paragraph. The conclusion needed to either contain personal observations or restate major points already made in the essay, and have a concluding sentence. The 5 paragraphs were a must: not one less, not one more. Grading was 50% writing (correct grammar, correct way of quoting, correct punctuation, correct structure of each paragraph, etc) and 50% content development.

While I thought that this approach was a bit of a strait-jacket, I have to admit it may be very helpful to students who have trouble developing their ideas in writing, as it guides them every step of the way, and it provides a sort of checklist to make sure all the necessary elements are there. As far as I remember, there was no class discussion on these essay elements, and no follow-up beyond the teacher's edits and comments. With so many books included in the syllabus, there is simply no time for detailed class instruction on writing these essays, though I'm sure a student could reach the teacher on the class forum page with any questions.

As for the transcript, are you asking having the MPOA Diploma Program in mind? Maybe momgineer could help you there, since she has a son enrolled in it already.

[jenniferjb]

My daughter completed CS I in 7th and CS II in 8th grade, and both courses are listed on her MPOA transcript as high school credit. She did also complete CS III & CS IV, but all were on the transcript.

[Mom2mthj]

For various reasons my children never participated in the diploma program, but when I discussed this with the previous director he indicated that whether seventh and eighth grade content would appear on the transcript was a mutual decision. My personal feeling is that high school math and foreign language is the only thing that should be brought up from middle school regardless of whether it was high school level content.

[Stella Maris mom]

Hello, Susan - if you click on your screen name that appears on top right corner of the forum page and choose "User Settings" then click on the "Account" tab, you should see a link to "Edit Your Signature" next to "Conversation Detail Options" in bold.

As to your question, my daughter was in the same situation when she took Classics I with MPOA - a 7th grader with a November birthday - together with her brother, who's a year older. She's always been a great reader and a natural (if wordy!) writer, though we did not do MP's CC so I cannot compare her well with your daughter. The MPOA teacher my kids worked with assigned one 5 paragraph essay for each book (2 week deadline), and did provide help: she put together a document detailing her requirements (word count, forbidden phrases, etc.), the purpose of each paragraph (an introduction, body paragraphs, a conclusion), and even what she wanted to see in each paragraph: for instance, the first paragraph had to contain an opening topic sentence tied to the prompt, a brief intro to the book and the author, and the "thesis" of the essay. Each body paragraph had to begin with a sentence that restated part of the thesis, contain reasoned evidence and at least one quote with a personal comment, and have a concluding sentence summing up the point of that paragraph. The conclusion needed to either contain personal observations or restate major points already made in the essay, and have a concluding sentence. The 5 paragraphs were a must: not one less, not one more. Grading was 50% writing (correct grammar, correct way of quoting, correct punctuation, correct structure of each paragraph, etc) and 50% content development.

While I thought that this approach was a bit of a strait-jacket, I have to admit it may be very helpful to students who have trouble developing their ideas in writing, as it guides them every step of the way, and it provides a sort of checklist to make sure all the necessary elements are there. As far as I remember, there was no class discussion on these essay elements, and no follow-up beyond the teacher's edits and comments. With so many books included in the syllabus, there is simply no time for detailed class instruction on writing these essays, though I'm sure a student could reach the teacher on the class forum page with any questions.

As for the transcript, are you asking having the MPOA Diploma Program in mind? Maybe momgineer could help you there, since she has a son enrolled in it already.

Mrs. Bee,

Thanks for the response! It’s good to hear from someone in a similar situation who completed the class. The guidance with the essays Is what I particularly wanted to know, so your detailed explanation was super helpful. I’m not so much worried about the reading, discussion, etc. as much as the lengthier writing component. This just leads me to another question now…. I know all teachers and their teaching styles are different regardless of the material being the same…so would this type of guidance be standardly given by all teachers giving this course this coming year? You don’t have to respond because I know that might be an administration-type answer. Hmmmm perhaps I might call and ask?

Thanks again!
Susan

[Stella Maris mom]

My daughter completed CS I in 7th and CS II in 8th grade, and both courses are listed on her MPOA transcript as high school credit. She did also complete CS III & CS IV, but all were on the transcript.

Hi Jennifer,

Thanks for the response! I noticed that within the diploma program Classics I is required, and whether it has to/should count as high school credit is the part I’m a little confused about. I’m still not sure if we’d use it officially as a high school credit (good to know it’s possible though!) but I was wondering that if we have it on record as completed through Memoria online beforehand, it would be at least acknowledged as completed and she will be able to move on and just include the further on Classics credits toward graduation. I guess the grade level range just has me thrown off a bit?

Thank you again!
Susan

[jenniferjb]

Are you asking if she would be required to take CS I/II again in high school if she completed them in 7th or 8th grade? My daughter just moved on to the next class when she started high school. I was surprised to see CS I/II listed on her transcript, but I bet they would remove them if you didn't want them listed. As to the grade levels listed, there is a range of ages in the CS courses. I think it is fairly common to start the sequence in 7th, 8th, or 9th grades, so I think that it why they are listed for grades 7-12.

[Mrs Bee]

Susan, in the past I've had your same question as well - how different is the same class taken with different teachers? I think this popped up in a post about CS now-III (Greek Tragedies). I've been told classes are kept pretty uniform when it comes to the workload and the type of assignments given, so there's that. I think CS I had that kind of guidance because MPOA knows that, although a 12th grader could take it, it's a class usually attended by much younger kids, who still need some writing guidance. We did CS II at home because the schedule did not work, but my kids have done MPOA Greek Tragedies this year, and there was no writing guidance save for an approximate word count.

[Stella Maris mom]

Are you asking if she would be required to take CS I/II again in high school if she completed them in 7th or 8th grade? My daughter just moved on to the next class when she started high school. I was surprised to see CS I/II listed on her transcript, but I bet they would remove them if you didn't want them listed. As to the grade levels listed, there is a range of ages in the CS courses. I think it is fairly common to start the sequence in 7th, 8th, or 9th grades, so I think that it why they are listed for grades 7-12.

Yes! That’s what I was trying to ask. I’ve read here in the past about kids taking the beginning of the Classics sequence before high school, and I wanted some reassurance that it can be completed successfully and work well for certain students. Her being on the early-ish side was one of my concerns. Thanks for the reply again!

Susan

[Stella Maris mom]

Susan, in the past I've had your same question as well - how different is the same class taken with different teachers? I think this popped up in a post about CS now-III (Greek Tragedies). I've been told classes are kept pretty uniform when it comes to the workload and the type of assignments given, so there's that. I think CS I had that kind of guidance because MPOA knows that, although a 12th grader could take it, it's a class usually attended by much younger kids, who still need some writing guidance. We did CS II at home because the schedule did not work, but my kids have done MPOA Greek Tragedies this year, and there was no writing guidance save for an approximate word count.

Mrs. Bee,

That seems to make sense that the Classics courses expectations would increase over the sequence. I am interested in the variance of teachers too (I like the updated preview videos!), but I realize maybe I just need to call to confirm my thoughts too. Thanks again for sharing your observations about the writing!

Susan

[pschaeffer]

Hi everyone,

Just to clarify a few things from an official perspective:
1. For the Diploma Program, students who take a high school class prior to officially being in 9th grade will be excused from the curricular requirement (i.e., they won't be required to take the same class again) but generally we would like to see them fulfill the credit requirement during their high school years. So a student that took CS I in 8th grade could take CS II and III to fulfill the Classical Studies requirements.
2. Since we try to encourage families to fulfill the credit requirement even though the have met the curricular requirement prior to high school, we generally avoid putting 7th and 8th grade classes on an MPOA Diploma Program transcript. Other institutions will see the student enrolled in "Classical Studies III" or "Algebra II" and know that it means the student completed CS II or Algebra I prior to high school, putting them ahead of the pack.
3. Generally courses will get more difficult year over year even if they have a broad recommended grade level like "9-12". So CS III should be a bit more difficult that CS II. Over the past couple years I have been putting teachers in charge of departments to help oversee and ensure that. Another part of their duties is to make sure assessments are fairly uniform section to section (for example, they might not have the same essay prompts but they should be required to write the same number of essays). While we are at the beginning of that project, courses are pretty much already arranged that way.

You're always welcome to call and ask us any questions but posting here is nice for others to be able to see too

Peace,
Paul

[Stella Maris mom]

3. Generally courses will get more difficult year over year even if they have a broad recommended grade level like "9-12". So CS III should be a bit more difficult that CS II. Over the past couple years I have been putting teachers in charge of departments to help oversee and ensure that. Another part of their duties is to make sure assessments are fairly uniform section to section (for example, they might not have the same essay prompts but they should be required to write the same number of essays). While we are at the beginning of that project, courses are pretty much already arranged that way.

You're always welcome to call and ask us any questions but posting here is nice for others to be able to see too

Peace,
Paul[/QUOTE]

Paul,
Thank you for your past responce to clarify things above! I just have a follow-up question in regards to your third point. Since Classics I has the possibility of a middle school student with limited CC experience in it, is it to be expected that all teachers in this class devote a few minutes talking about the structure of the expected essay? Or rather, will they post perhaps a helpful outline for student use? My daughter will be in Chreia/Maxim with the online academy this year and I've read in past posts how experienced teachers can really help make those writing skills connections with the content areas. I don't have any reservations about my daughter being able to handle the material or analysis of it with class discussion. I'm just hoping the essays won't surprise her too much!

Susan

[pschaeffer]

Yes, in CS I teachers will definitely spell out expectations for the essays. We do that in just about every class as we have student coming from various backgrounds. Less help will be given in more advanced classes, but even in upper high school we still work with students on what a good thesis is, etc.

Peace,
Paul