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Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

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    Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

    Hi,

    We are finishing up Chreia/Maxim and getting ready to begin Refutation/Confirmation. Looking ahead, Refute/Confirm essays look completely different from Chreia/Maxim essays. How are the two related? Are their instances you would use elements from a Chreia/Maxim essay in a Refutation or Confirmation? What was the purpose of learning the Chreia/Maxim if we do not use those paragraph types looking forward? Or do we? Just trying to wrap my head around why we are doing each stage when they do not seem to directly correlate and I am wondering if there is a way to correlate the stages to keep the different paragraph types/approaches in use.

    Thank you,
    Laura

    #2
    Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

    Originally posted by aelllc View Post
    Hi,

    We are finishing up Chreia/Maxim and getting ready to begin Refutation/Confirmation. Looking ahead, Refute/Confirm essays look completely different from Chreia/Maxim essays. How are the two related? Are their instances you would use elements from a Chreia/Maxim essay in a Refutation or Confirmation? What was the purpose of learning the Chreia/Maxim if we do not use those paragraph types looking forward? Or do we? Just trying to wrap my head around why we are doing each stage when they do not seem to directly correlate and I am wondering if there is a way to correlate the stages to keep the different paragraph types/approaches in use.

    Thank you,
    Laura
    Oh gosh. Just when I thought I would have things under control with Composition.

    I'm popping some popcorn and settling in to follow this thread.
    Plans for 2019-20

    DD1 - 24 - College Grad and rocking her own bakery business
    DD2 - 13 - 8A Louisville HLS Cottage School and MPOA
    DS3 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
    DS4 - 11 - 4A Louisville HLS Cottage School
    DD5 - 7 - MP2, Louisville HLS Cottage School
    DS6 - 5 - MP K

    [url]www.thekennedyadventures.com/all-about-our-memoria-press-homeschool[/url]

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      #3
      Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

      Originally posted by DiannaKennedy View Post
      Oh gosh. Just when I thought I would have things under control with Composition.

      I'm popping some popcorn and settling in to follow this thread.

      Me too...I also had this question. I was thinking maybe it is the repetitive nature of the exercises that is supposed to sort of "ingrain" the skills being taught, so that hopefully they remember how to use the skills, and also know when it is appropriate to apply them over the years?
      DD 12, using 6M core with 7th Grade COTR
      DS 10, using 5M core

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

        Originally posted by aelllc View Post
        Hi,

        We are finishing up Chreia/Maxim and getting ready to begin Refutation/Confirmation. Looking ahead, Refute/Confirm essays look completely different from Chreia/Maxim essays. How are the two related? Are their instances you would use elements from a Chreia/Maxim essay in a Refutation or Confirmation? What was the purpose of learning the Chreia/Maxim if we do not use those paragraph types looking forward? Or do we? Just trying to wrap my head around why we are doing each stage when they do not seem to directly correlate and I am wondering if there is a way to correlate the stages to keep the different paragraph types/approaches in use.

        Thank you,
        Laura
        We have passed this along to one of the MPOA Classical Composition teachers. She hopes to get back to us by tonight or tomorrow morning.
        Last edited by Michael; 03-12-2018, 12:04 PM. Reason: added quote
        Michael
        Memoria Press

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          #5
          Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

          She was faster than anticipated! Here's her response:


          ​​Greetings! Thank you for that excellent question. The step from Chreia/Maxim to Ref/Con is probably the most challenging and completely different step of the whole program. Let me see if I can help connect some of those threads for you. The first thing to keep in mind is that CC does not teach any particular "type" of essay, as modern composition does with its hyper-focus on the 5-paragraph essay. We teach tools that can be chosen and then applied to whatever writing need a student has in the future. No student will be told to write a full Chreia paper ever again after they've completed the stage. But, explaining and developing a point using an analogy, example, or a story are skills that can and will be applied to a variety of

          Chreia/Maxim teaches the art of illustration or elaboration (that is, how to use the heads of development to make a fact or truth clearer to the reader). Then in Refutation/Confirmation we focus on the invention and clarification of arguments.

          To develop my point I will use the classic, "Mom, can I go to the church party?" My child's position is "Yes! Let me go!" and she will undoubtedly have a list of 2-3 reasons why she should be allowed to go. (Her older brother gets to go, it's a nice, safe, chaperoned church event, she goes to other church stuff, etc.) Enter the Heads of Purpose - six different ways that we argue for (and against) a position. These reasons are based on clarity, plausibility, possibility, consistency, propriety, and expediency. Most people, given any circumstance, can invent 2-3 reasons for or against a position (see above), but Ref/Con teaches six! (These are extrapolated from Stoic philosophy and the classical virtues, but I'll leave that for now. Just know they aren't random and are very comprehensive in the scope of reasoning.) This is also where CC becomes as much a mental process as a writing process. Certainly "an essay" is the end result, but in order to do this, we must teach the brain to find the "why" (position) as it relates to the "what" (facts). Thus, Chreia/Maxim and Refutation/Confirmation make a perfect pairing, because at the conclusion of the two we have the ability to argue a thoroughly developed and clear position on any given piece of information. We will still use the heads of development in Ref/Con that we learned in Chreia, calling on them to help illustrate our arguments with general truths (recognition/cause of 9 narrative components), to paraphrase what we have just said in a slightly different way, to use a small scenario or plot to illustrate the position of an argument, and other applications.

          Some heads of purpose from Chreia we will, indeed, not use as much in Ref/Con, just due to the genre of the Ref/Con material. When arguing about a fairy tale it is not really useful to elaborate with a historical fact, for instance, or liken our position to a famous quote.

          Remember that while CC is vertically integrated, and students should continue using skills from each stage in the next one, all those skills may not be called for in every single paper. When we go on to Common Topic (a great stage for you debate and mock trial enthusiasts, may I say!), you will see a return to some of the more familiar analogical structure and more elaborate development of scenarios. Ref/Con's focus is on argument development and analysis, not so much on extensive descriptions and plot formations, so that is perhaps why it appears so strange and new. But, the AMAZING thing about Ref/Con is that it teaches a student how to find and develop an argument, not just to "write something about why you like/don't like such and such," as modern courses do. They do nothing to teach the brain how to think. However, our instruction of the discrete skills of argumentative thinking are the foundation for any successful argumentative or persuasive paper.

          Whew! That was a lot of information, and I hope I haven't overwhelmed and just further confused you! Please feel free to follow up with any more questions you have!

          Lord's blessings be with you,
          Abigail Johnson
          MPOA Teacher and CC Instructor

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

            Originally posted by dayna View Post
            This is also where CC becomes as much a mental process as a writing process. Certainly "an essay" is the end result, but in order to do this, we must teach the brain to find the "why" (position) as it relates to the "what" (facts). Thus, Chreia/Maxim and Refutation/Confirmation make a perfect pairing, because at the conclusion of the two we have the ability to argue a thoroughly developed and clear position on any given piece of information.
            This is what stood out to me. My dd is dipping her toes into C/M this semester and I've viewed the essay as the end result - thinking all along that R/M will "build" upon this next year. It's good to know that each successive level of CC does build upon skills learned in the last, but not necessarily in the neat, linear fashion I've always envisioned. There is a much bigger picture I didn't even consider.

            Also, after reading that, I am SO HAPPY that dd13 will be taking the C/M + R/C course with Mrs. Johnson next year! I'm thrilled that she'll have such a wonderful writing teacher! *swoons*
            Mary

            DD14 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek I & Latin IV + VideoText math
            DS12 - 7th core + Novare Earth Science + CLRC HS Latin I + VideoText math
            DD8 - SC level 2

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              #7
              Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

              It helps to have an experienced teacher point out the big picture as I sometimes get lost amongst the details. Most of us are looking at composition only from the beginning and cannot always see where we are being led. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am printing out the reply and putting it into the beginning of my teacher guide so I can remind myself throughout the year where we are going with this. I am encouraged and excited to get ready for our next year of Classical Composition.

              Sincerely,
              Laura

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

                Originally posted by OrthodoxHandmaiden View Post
                This is what stood out to me. My dd is dipping her toes into C/M this semester and I've viewed the essay as the end result - thinking all along that R/M will "build" upon this next year. It's good to know that each successive level of CC does build upon skills learned in the last, but not necessarily in the neat, linear fashion I've always envisioned. There is a much bigger picture I didn't even consider.

                Also, after reading that, I am SO HAPPY that dd13 will be taking the C/M + R/C course with Mrs. Johnson next year! I'm thrilled that she'll have such a wonderful writing teacher! *swoons*
                My son is in this course now. Mrs Johnson is just fabulous! My son (gasp) ENJOYS writing now, where as before it was one of our biggest arguments. You and your daughter will not be disappointed!
                Katie

                2019/20 6th year with MP
                DS 15: 10th, MPOA: Latin & HS Comp II
                DD 12: 7th, MPOA: Latin, Pre-Algebra, Chreia/Maxim & Ref/Con
                DD 9: 4th using 3A
                Twin DD's 7: 1st

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                  #9
                  Re: Composition: Chreia/ Maxim to Refutation/Confirmation

                  It seems like we have had a lot of questions about writing lately, and CC specifically, and with every one, it has made me think of an article featured on Circe recently, titled: 7 Habits of Every Good Writer. I am going to try to link it, but there’s the title of it doesn’t work. I like what each contributor offers, but I think what I loved the most was David Kern’s introductory statements about what it takes to write - the few quotes he includes are so perfect. And I think it is valuable for us all to remember - that teaching writing is *hard* because *writing is hard*!!!! Check it out - and maybe share it with your children!

                  https://www.circeinstitute.org/blog/...ry-good-writer

                  AMDG,
                  Sarah
                  Last edited by KF2000; 03-13-2018, 01:54 PM.
                  2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
                  DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
                  DS, 16
                  DD, 14
                  DD, 12
                  DD, 10
                  DD, 7.5
                  DD, 5.5
                  +DS+
                  DS, 18 months

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