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  • melaneesa
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    I was referring to math beyond geometry - trig and calculus. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to study those.

    I realize that makes me an oddball here. That's okay.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cindy in Indy
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    [QUOTE=melaneesa;67476]
    Originally posted by Miah View Post
    Has anyone ever thought about how useless high school math is in the long run? I loved math (geometry proofs aside). I had something like 109% in trig due to getting bonuses and I didn't even study. I just grokked it. I took trig and college algebra the same semester in college as coast classes...and that was the last time I ever used them. In 20 years I have never needed it. If you aren't in a few specialized professions you will never need it as an adult. Why do we stress so much and torture so many mathematically disinclined kids with it while lying to them that it will somehow turn out to be vital to every one of their adult lives? They know we are lying. My cohort certainly did.
    /QUOTE]

    Agreed. I find it a little difficult to sell this to my kids, too. I took Algebra 1 & 2 and Geometry (I'm one of the geometry haters). Then I quit math. I had my 3 math credits and I never took math again. As a music major with good ACT scores, I was not required to take math in college. I don't plan to push advanced math on my kids, particularly not the one who is planning to major in music. I'm not convinced of the necessity of it.
    Hi Melanie and Miah,
    I am glad that you asked these questions, because they represent the mindset of many in our culture today. And it reminds me that I need to address this concern at Sodalitas, when I give my talk on "The Order of Math" and also during the upper grades math workshop. I will briefly mention a few things here, with more to come at Sodalitas.

    First, let me point out that the OP was asking about Math7. I suspect we agree that mastery of arithmetic is a worthy goal for all students (barring learning exceptionalities). So the question remains: why push on through algebra1, geometry, and algebra2? (which are the minimum maths required to graduate from most high schools across the country). Here are some thoughts to consider:

    1) We don't know at ages 7-18 who exactly will wind up in a math or science field (including medical fields). I would not want to hold my child back from future opportunities, because I feared math, or they didn't like it, or did not seem to have a special aptitude for math.
    2) Mastering algebra is mostly a matter of knowing math facts, being able to work with fractions, and diligently working at daily practice. (Kind of like mastering a musical instrument - steady daily practice builds skill.) These work habits pay off in many different areas of life.
    3) Learning geometry is a wonderful study in rational thought. The proofs that some have mentioned as terrible memories, are actually elegant examples of some of the highest reasoning that human minds are capable of. Students are not expected to reinvent Euclid's geometry, but rather to learn to express rational thinking in clear language. (Akin to constructing an argument for public forum debate or persuasive essay.)
    4) Contrast the utilitarian approach to education with the classical approach. Most students don't study Latin in order to become classics majors (although some may); we study Latin to develop the language side of the mind. Studying mathematics develops the mind in parallel, so that the person has a wide breadth of thinking skills that they are able to apply across many new situations they will encounter as they journey through life. Ages 7-18 is an essential window to develop tools for the toolbox of the mind; these tools will be used for a lifetime.

    I encourage you to speak positively of your child's opportunities to study mathematics. Seek outside classes if you personally do not wish to teach mathematics. Encourage them to apply themselves steadily, even if it is not their favorite subject. The habits they practice now will pay off throughout their lives.

    Leave a comment:


  • melaneesa
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    [QUOTE=Miah;67474]
    Has anyone ever thought about how useless high school math is in the long run? I loved math (geometry proofs aside). I had something like 109% in trig due to getting bonuses and I didn't even study. I just grokked it. I took trig and college algebra the same semester in college as coast classes...and that was the last time I ever used them. In 20 years I have never needed it. If you aren't in a few specialized professions you will never need it as an adult. Why do we stress so much and torture so many mathematically disinclined kids with it while lying to them that it will somehow turn out to be vital to every one of their adult lives? They know we are lying. My cohort certainly did.
    /QUOTE]

    Agreed. I find it a little difficult to sell this to my kids, too. I took Algebra 1 & 2 and Geometry (I'm one of the geometry haters). Then I quit math. I had my 3 math credits and I never took math again. As a music major with good ACT scores, I was not required to take math in college. I don't plan to push advanced math on my kids, particularly not the one who is planning to major in music. I'm not convinced of the necessity of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miah
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    I too loved algebra and trigonometry, but despised geometry. The proofs seemed so utterly pointless. One giant soul sucking waste of time. Now the useful aspects of geometry I liked. Weirdly I did enjoy basic programming languages in college. Practically speaking that pitiful 9 weeks of useful geometry has been the math (beyond basic operations) that I have used the most in life. The proofs? Forgotten instantly never to be used again.

    Has anyone ever thought about how useless high school math is in the long run? I loved math (geometry proofs aside). I had something like 109% in trig due to getting bonuses and I didn't even study. I just grokked it. I took trig and college algebra the same semester in college as coast classes...and that was the last time I ever used them. In 20 years I have never needed it. If you aren't in a few specialized professions you will never need it as an adult. Why do we stress so much and torture so many mathematically disinclined kids with it while lying to them that it will somehow turn out to be vital to every one of their adult lives? They know we are lying. My cohort certainly did.

    My kids like math, too, so following the standard path is not a problem, but it is for a lot of people. My husband was not algebraically inclined in high school and had to take it remedially in college. What bearing was algebra going to have for him to be a park ranger other than to keep him from being a park ranger? It's never really made sense to me the reverence with which algebra is held.

    I do know its a pattern of problem solving, but even second graders can solve problems using algrebra's basic method if it's stated in a word problem, which is what you actually find in everyday life. I am seriously asking. My youngest asks me these hard questions all the time and feeding him the lines I got as a kid...well it's like chumming the water for a shark. He smells that I don't believe them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Enigma
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    I think it is true you are either one or the other. My brother, a computer programmer type, loved geometry but nearly failed algebra. I was the exact opposite. He could not understand why I didn't get the proofs cause they were just like programming... then he realized who he was talking to. I am not that type of person. But we both aced English!

    I plan to use dvd instruction when we get there. Yep, I'm a wimp!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mary
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
    We must have been sitting in the same classrooms and did not even know it. Any chance you grew up in Central IL? My experience was exactly as you described.

    But I will not put it all on my teachers. I have heard others say that folks tend to be either algebra “people” or geometry “people.” (Kind of like left brain/right brain.). Not sure if there is data to back that up, but anecdotally it seems to be true.

    AMDG,
    Sarah
    I have heard this same thing and I do wonder if it's true. I LOVED geometry and only tolerated/floundered through Algebra I and II. But when trigonometry came around, I again loved it. (This may explain why I'm so excited about Pre-Algebra with dd this year - I FINALLY UNDERSTAND IT!)

    Oh, and Dianna, you may be on to some- thing, too. I worked psych ER and on a neuro developmental wing...and was a geometry geek. :-)

    Leave a comment:


  • DiannaKennedy
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by Anita View Post
    I took — and enjoyed! — pre algebra in 7th grade and Algebra I in 8th grade — and I’m not even good at Math! I credit my teacher for giving me a great understanding of how it all worked. So, truly, don’t worry about pre-Algebra too much. It’s not as hard as you think. Negative numbers, complex fractions and Order of Operations are the only things that really stick out to me that we’re totally new at that time and they were not difficult to learn. (I rather liked order of operations; it was like solving little puzzles for every problem.)

    HOWEVER: the next year was 9th grade, my first year of high school, AND Geometry. Completely different story. It was so different from the tidy predictability of Algebra, and so abstract, AND I had a teacher with a totally different teaching style and Math approach than I was used to (basically, “I’ll teach you how to do this once, if you don’t get it, figure it out yourself tonight at home — we’re moving on tomorrow.”). Geometry is totally different from Algebra and I was not prepared or sufficiently guided through all the angles and proofs and theorems — AARGH! So it’s not Algebra that gives me hives, it’s Geometry. (I hear other moms say all the time how much they loved Geometry and how easy it was for them. Makes me want to cry. I hated it and didn’t understand what the heck was going on most of the time.)

    So now — have I convinced you not to fear Pre-Algebra? (And to run screaming from Geometry? )
    I'm laughing so hard at this ....
    I never had a separate pre-algebra class -- maybe it was folded in somewhere along the way. I remember that there were a couple of different math tracks for freshmen ..... some took remedial math, some took pre-algebra, and some took Algebra I.

    Algebra I was fine, but I struggled a bit in Algebra II. The first 9 weeks were a review, and bored me to tears. By the time we started in new material, I was out in la-la land and had to bust my butt to catch up. Argh.

    Geometry? I hate to make you cry, but I loved it. <3 My teacher was wonderful, and it made sense to me. I like rules, and order. I didn't question the 'why' behind it, but just applied the rules. Later on in nursing school, the psych nursing section reminded me of geometry. Here are the criteria for XYZ disorder -- does your pt meet the criteria? Yes? Ok, here we go.

    (very obviously, it is NOT as cut and dried as that, but we're talking about 19 yr old me)

    Now you're making me wonder if my friends who had a hard time with psych nursing also struggled with geometry. Many of my classmates shed a LOT of tears over that semester.

    It is amazing to me, really, how we all have different affinities for different subjects and concepts. Even within a family, you'll see people shine in some areas and falter in others.
    Last edited by DiannaKennedy; 02-05-2018, 11:11 PM. Reason: because seriously? How many times can you use struggle in one paragraph? Thesaurus, much?

    Leave a comment:


  • KF2000
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by Anita View Post
    I took — and enjoyed! — pre algebra in 7th grade and Algebra I in 8th grade — and I’m not even good at Math! I credit my teacher for giving me a great understanding of how it all worked. So, truly, don’t worry about pre-Algebra too much. It’s not as hard as you think. Negative numbers, complex fractions and Order of Operations are the only things that really stick out to me that we’re totally new at that time and they were not difficult to learn. (I rather liked order of operations; it was like solving little puzzles for every problem.)

    HOWEVER: the next year was 9th grade, my first year of high school, AND Geometry. Completely different story. It was so different from the tidy predictability of Algebra, and so abstract, AND I had a teacher with a totally different teaching style and Math approach than I was used to (basically, “I’ll teach you how to do this once, if you don’t get it, figure it out yourself tonight at home — we’re moving on tomorrow.”). Geometry is totally different from Algebra and I was not prepared or sufficiently guided through all the angles and proofs and theorems — AARGH! So it’s not Algebra that gives me hives, it’s Geometry. (I hear other moms say all the time how much they loved Geometry and how easy it was for them. Makes me want to cry. I hated it and didn’t understand what the heck was going on most of the time.)

    So now — have I convinced you not to fear Pre-Algebra? (And to run screaming from Geometry? )
    We must have been sitting in the same classrooms and did not even know it. Any chance you grew up in Central IL? My experience was exactly as you described.

    But I will not put it all on my teachers. I have heard others say that folks tend to be either algebra “people” or geometry “people.” (Kind of like left brain/right brain.). Not sure if there is data to back that up, but anecdotally it seems to be true.

    AMDG,
    Sarah

    Leave a comment:


  • Anita
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by DiannaKennedy View Post
    This makes me feel a little better. She'll be 12 in April, so 13 by the time she starts algebra I. (looks like Katie's daughter is younger)

    I totally get the maturity level/abstract reasoning thing. I did pose the question to her MPOA teacher, and she responded that if Rachel ended the class with an 85% or better, she'd give her a green light for pre-algebra. Unless the train gets totally derailed, I think we're solidly there. Pre-algebra SOUNDS scary to me, because I never took it, and, I took Algebra in 9th grade, not 8th. Were we learning pre-algebra concepts in 7th and 8th grade? I have no idea!

    Do you have a recommendation for concepts to review during the summer, to start off strong in pre-algebra in the fall?


    And Katie, I totally didn't mean to hijack your thread.
    I took — and enjoyed! — pre algebra in 7th grade and Algebra I in 8th grade — and I’m not even good at Math! I credit my teacher for giving me a great understanding of how it all worked. So, truly, don’t worry about pre-Algebra too much. It’s not as hard as you think. Negative numbers, complex fractions and Order of Operations are the only things that really stick out to me that we’re totally new at that time and they were not difficult to learn. (I rather liked order of operations; it was like solving little puzzles for every problem.)

    HOWEVER: the next year was 9th grade, my first year of high school, AND Geometry. Completely different story. It was so different from the tidy predictability of Algebra, and so abstract, AND I had a teacher with a totally different teaching style and Math approach than I was used to (basically, “I’ll teach you how to do this once, if you don’t get it, figure it out yourself tonight at home — we’re moving on tomorrow.”). Geometry is totally different from Algebra and I was not prepared or sufficiently guided through all the angles and proofs and theorems — AARGH! So it’s not Algebra that gives me hives, it’s Geometry. (I hear other moms say all the time how much they loved Geometry and how easy it was for them. Makes me want to cry. I hated it and didn’t understand what the heck was going on most of the time.)

    So now — have I convinced you not to fear Pre-Algebra? (And to run screaming from Geometry? )

    Leave a comment:


  • Katie
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by tanya View Post
    Confession: Cindy gave me her R& S Math 7 lesson plans months ago, and they are sitting untouched on my desk. So, once again, the buck stops on my desk, which is swimming with unfinished projects. I will move this to the front and hope to have them done and ready for sale in the next couple of weeks.

    And, Cindy, I appreciate your not calling me out. You were so gentle with your little "We'll let Tanya chime in ..." comment!

    Tanya
    Ohhhhhhhh, this is the best news all day. You all are the BEST and making my life easier!

    Leave a comment:


  • DiannaKennedy
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
    Yes, I do! Fractions and signed numbers (that means positive and negative numbers). She will continue with those topics in pre-algebra, but keeping them fresh over the summer will help build her confidence.

    My preferred resource for summer math practice is khanacademy.org Free and safe, no distracting bells or whistles. You can receive a weekly report on time spent and progress, which can be helpful with accountability.

    I would select "6th grade math" or "7th grade math" for her summer practice. The program will guide her through. It will catch her gaps and give her additional practice on those topics. She can watch a tutorial video if she needs a review. She may run into a couple of topics that were not covered in R&S (related to probability, for instance). She can skip those or watch the tutorial video to learn how to do them. She will earn badges and energy points, which are like electronic "gold stars", and most kids find them motivating.

    I don't know her summer schedule, but I would aim for 60 minutes per week, broken into three 20 minute sessions.
    As always, I appreciate your guidance! <3 Thank you so much.

    Her summer schedule tends to be full, but we always do school, in some fashion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cindy in Indy
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by tanya View Post
    Confession: Cindy gave me her R& S Math 7 lesson plans months ago, and they are sitting untouched on my desk. So, once again, the buck stops on my desk, which is swimming with unfinished projects. I will move this to the front and hope to have them done and ready for sale in the next couple of weeks.

    And, Cindy, I appreciate your not calling me out. You were so gentle with your little "We'll let Tanya chime in ..." comment!

    Tanya
    Haha, I wasn't positive I *had* given them to you... I'm glad there is enough interest to create and offer them.
    Cindy

    Leave a comment:


  • Cindy in Indy
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by DiannaKennedy View Post
    This makes me feel a little better. She'll be 12 in April, so 13 by the time she starts algebra I.

    Do you have a recommendation for concepts to review during the summer, to start off strong in pre-algebra in the fall?
    Yes, I do! Fractions and signed numbers (that means positive and negative numbers). She will continue with those topics in pre-algebra, but keeping them fresh over the summer will help build her confidence.

    My preferred resource for summer math practice is khanacademy.org Free and safe, no distracting bells or whistles. You can receive a weekly report on time spent and progress, which can be helpful with accountability.

    I would select "6th grade math" or "7th grade math" for her summer practice. The program will guide her through. It will catch her gaps and give her additional practice on those topics. She can watch a tutorial video if she needs a review. She may run into a couple of topics that were not covered in R&S (related to probability, for instance). She can skip those or watch the tutorial video to learn how to do them. She will earn badges and energy points, which are like electronic "gold stars", and most kids find them motivating.

    I don't know her summer schedule, but I would aim for 60 minutes per week, broken into three 20 minute sessions.

    Leave a comment:


  • tanya
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Confession: Cindy gave me her R& S Math 7 lesson plans months ago, and they are sitting untouched on my desk. So, once again, the buck stops on my desk, which is swimming with unfinished projects. I will move this to the front and hope to have them done and ready for sale in the next couple of weeks.

    And, Cindy, I appreciate your not calling me out. You were so gentle with your little "We'll let Tanya chime in ..." comment!

    Tanya

    Leave a comment:


  • melaneesa
    replied
    Re: Math 7

    Originally posted by OrthodoxHandmaiden View Post
    Sorry - the student book is the text.

    I didn't like COTR right out of the gate because I am used to the open-and-go format of R&S and MP materials. I like having a teacher manual that actually helps me teach - imagine my surprise when I opened the solutions manual and found...only solutions! *weary laugh*
    YES. This makes it very difficult to teach. I am used to having the student text within the teacher guide, so I can see what my student sees. Spoiled, I suppose! Also the way the text is laid out is difficult to navigate -- every page looks the same. No chapter breaks or divisions. And yes, only having solutions to half the problems is...odd. (ha ha that's a COTR joke) Anyway, I don't have time to pre-read the lesson and assemble sample problems on the board and so forth. I really need open and go.

    I've also seen the maturity thing at play. My oldest struggled with COTR in 7th, so we tackled it again this year and it's going much better. Much, much better. Which is why I'm concerned about putting my next child in pre-algebra in 7th. Maybe with a daily math lesson from a math teacher she could do it, but I just can't take that much time on one subject with one kid. (I'm trying to do that with her in Latin and there's only so much time per kid.) I like the idea of giving her another year with R&S.

    Leave a comment:

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