Latin & Greek combined questions

[Aquila]

In planning for next year I have a couple of questions about our Latin and Greek plans from now onward.

We have been doing three languages this year and my daughter has found it very hard to fit it all in. This year we have been working on TFL and EGII. TFL has been a big challenge but we are getting through it. EGII has been just the right amount of Greek and she seems to enjoy learning the language, even if I have given her the option of dropping it.

So my questions pertaining to Latin are thus:

1) Is 4th Form as challenging as Third Form?
2) What is the Latin sequence after Fourth Form and beyond. For instance, when is AP Latin taken? What is after AP Latin?

As for Greek, I have been contemplating moving her into FFG, however I have trepidation about doing two forms at the same time. I know other mothers have said that FFG was a better program that EG. If we continued with EG would she still need to complete FFG? I would like her to switch to Attic or classical Greek at some point but I don't even know what textbooks are out there.

Thank you for all your help.

[Michael]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

In planning for next year I have a couple of questions about our Latin and Greek plans from now onward.

We have been doing three languages this year and my daughter has found it very hard to fit it all in. This year we have been working on TFL and EGII. TFL has been a big challenge but we are getting through it. EGII has been just the right amount of Greek and she seems to enjoy learning the language, even if I have given her the option of dropping it.

So my questions pertaining to Latin are thus:

1) Is 4th Form as challenging as Third Form?
2) What is the Latin sequence after Fourth Form and beyond. For instance, when is AP Latin taken? What is after AP Latin?

As for Greek, I have been contemplating moving her into FFG, however I have trepidation about doing two forms at the same time. I know other mothers have said that FFG was a better program that EG. If we continued with EG would she still need to complete FFG? I would like her to switch to Attic or classical Greek at some point but I don't even know what textbooks are out there.

Thank you for all your help.

Good morning,

1) Most people find Fourth Form easier than Third Form. The vast majority of grammar forms have been memorized by the end of Third Form, so there is less memorization and more time for translation in Fourth Form.
2) After Fourth Form, our students spend a year completing the lessons in Henle II, then read Caesar the following year. After that, depending on the student's ability and the number of years until graduation, options include Henle III (Cicero) and/or AP Latin, which is typically taken junior or senior year. After AP, HLS students take Latin Prose Composition, but another translation course such as Ovid would also work well.

First Form Greek does move faster and provide more practice with the grammar than Elementary Greek, making FFG more suitable for most older students. I say "most" because EG is not a bad program! In fact, if your daughter is juggling three languages but wants to continue Greek, EG III's gentler pace might be the better option for her. Afterwards, FFG would still provide excellent review, as well as some new material, or you could switch to an Attic Greek text. (The grammatical differences between Koine and Attic only become apparent in more advanced grammar forms. At the beginning level, the similarities greatly outnumber the differences. Thus, EG and FFG are both great preparations for a later focus on Attic Greek.)

You mentioned your daughter is currently studying three languages. May I ask what is the third language? How intensive is it and for how much longer do you want or are you required to continue it? That may affect the above advice, as well as the advice of others

[Aquila]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

Well, it is good to know that Fourth Form isn't harder than Third! When students in high school, take either Henle III or AP Latin, are these considered two separate course credits?

I am leaning towards our continuation with EGIII, because I have really enjoyed the incremental approach and it would be easier to just continue with what we know. So that would be EGIII for grade 7 and then for grade 8, what Attic Greek text would you recommend?

She is also studying French. In another dimension my kids would have been in an immersion program. French is a necessity in Canada, particularly if you want to work in the Federal civil service (and some provincial governments also). Without French, in the Public Service, you risk the chance of being overlooked for job positions, or even losing your position if its required French level is altered. There are designations A, B, C with oral, and written components. Back in the day the Government would send people on French training, but a lot of departments are cutting the funding for these programs, unless you have a particular skill set that they require. I know this is a lot of information, but in a round about way I am answering your question. So, since my children are not in immersion they do not have the diploma to back up (or waive) those test requirements. We were using Breaking the Barrier I and we got most way through the program last year and we were going to resume this year, but we hit TF and I switched her to Duolingo, just to keep her up on her French. However, this is only adequate she will need to write the DELF junior exam (which Breaking the Barrier does not prep for). Alliance Francaise runs this diploma program out of France (with satellite locations in Canada) and it is the external test provider. Once the test is written it provides a certificate that some Canadian universities (like University of Ottawa) and the PS recognize. They also have some tests specifically for Public Servants. However, I am not sure if I am prepared to prep her for the tests and a tutor at the alliance is 50$ and hour, which is a little out of our budget! And so....that is where I am at. So the long and short of it is - currently it is not intensive, but soon it will have to be intensive and it is something she may need to be tested for every year from 7 through to 12. I suppose I will just have to suck it up and start tutoring her.

She is also writing her piano theory exams and has taken up another instrument. So her days are filled. She does thrive on it, but I also know that she is still a child and needs time to just be bored!

Thank you for listening and any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Michael]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

Well, it is good to know that Fourth Form isn't harder than Third! When students in high school, take either Henle III or AP Latin, are these considered two separate course credits?

I am leaning towards our continuation with EGIII, because I have really enjoyed the incremental approach and it would be easier to just continue with what we know. So that would be EGIII for grade 7 and then for grade 8, what Attic Greek text would you recommend?

She is also studying French. In another dimension my kids would have been in an immersion program. French is a necessity in Canada, particularly if you want to work in the Federal civil service (and some provincial governments also). Without French, in the Public Service, you risk the chance of being overlooked for job positions, or even losing your position if its required French level is altered. There are designations A, B, C with oral, and written components. Back in the day the Government would send people on French training, but a lot of departments are cutting the funding for these programs, unless you have a particular skill set that they require. I know this is a lot of information, but in a round about way I am answering your question. So, since my children are not in immersion they do not have the diploma to back up (or waive) those test requirements. We were using Breaking the Barrier I and we got most way through the program last year and we were going to resume this year, but we hit TF and I switched her to Duolingo, just to keep her up on her French. However, this is only adequate she will need to write the DELF junior exam (which Breaking the Barrier does not prep for). Alliance Francaise runs this diploma program out of France (with satellite locations in Canada) and it is the external test provider. Once the test is written it provides a certificate that some Canadian universities (like University of Ottawa) and the PS recognize. They also have some tests specifically for Public Servants. However, I am not sure if I am prepared to prep her for the tests and a tutor at the alliance is 50$ and hour, which is a little out of our budget! And so....that is where I am at. So the long and short of it is - currently it is not intensive, but soon it will have to be intensive and it is something she may need to be tested for every year from 7 through to 12. I suppose I will just have to suck it up and start tutoring her.

She is also writing her piano theory exams and has taken up another instrument. So her days are filled. She does thrive on it, but I also know that she is still a child and needs time to just be bored!

Thank you for listening and any advice is greatly appreciated.

Hello again. Thank you for that information on French instruction and requirements in Canada. I learned a lot!

It took me awhile to get back with you as I was hunting for recommendations on an Attic text after EG III. Considering how much time you will be spending on French soon, I would definitely recommend sticking with EG III next year. (I completely agree with you on the value of some boredom!) After that, Mr. Piland suggested looking at From Alpha to Omega: A Beginning Course in Classical Greek. It does start from the beginning, so the early lessons may move more quickly until you hit new content. He suggested spending about two year's on the book's 50 lessons (again, you may move faster) and he added, "The ancillary exercises are REALLY helpful to ensure mastery." Here's an Amazon link for samples and more information: https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Omega-B...nd+omega+greek

HTH!

[Mom2mthj]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

My daughter is using the Athenaze series in her Attic Greek class. It is the text recommended in the Latin Centered Curriculum. She did not use elementary Greek, but that is Andrew Campbell's middle school recommendation. Her class does not use the workbook, but one is available. There are teacher helps on the website, but with three others at home I didn't have the background or time to teach her myself. I have also seen a Classical Greek class through the great courses, but have no experience with it. It is fairly pricey, but they do have good sales. There is a National Greek Exam - no where near as well organized as the NLE - that you might want to consider. The class took beginning Attic Greek near the end of the first book.

[serendipitous journey]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

Catherine, thank you for asking this question on the forum -- we are just starting Greek, but have the same general goals of Latin, Classical Greek, and French for a modern language (though our French will be less demanding than yours, since we are in the US).

And Michael, thank you for hunting down a recommended Classical Greek text. "From Alpha to Omega" looks amazing: it has an accompanying book of Greek stories as well as the extra exercise book and it avoids the trouble I've had with Athenaze & with Galore Park's Intro to Classical Greek, both of which assume that the instructor (me!) already knows enough Greek to be qualified to teach a class in it.

[klwalukas]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

We also have Alpha to Omega and it is very good. There is online courseware to supplement it as well and help teach it.
You can go here to request an instructor answer key:

https://www.hackettpublishing.com/webforms/index/index/id/2/

You might have to call them to explain that you are a homeschool teacher.

Kristin

[serendipitous journey]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

Kristin, much thanks and a big hug! Answer Keys are a saving grace around here.

[Aquila]

Re: Latin & Greek combined questions

You all are so very, very helpful and informative. Thank you for all your patience.

I took a look at Alpha and Omega and it seems very user friendly and having access to an answer key is definitely a bonus. I tried keeping up with her this year, but just couldn't. Although I do have a second chance with my youngest.

I think by high school, for at least Latin or other subjects I will have to give a look at the online classes. There is only so much one mother can do!