When to add...

[TheAttachedMama]

My husband is not sold on the whole Latin thing. He thinks the kids would be better off learning a living language. We have compromised with the idea that they could learn both Latin and another living language. I am thinking of adding in French at some point. My question is: What would be the ideal core to add in a grammar heavy French program? (I am looking at either First Start French or Breaking the Barrier.)

My second question has to do with the wonderful Professor Carol books that Memoria Press sells. I could be missing it, but those are not scheduled in any core guide. Right? So when would be the ideal time to add those to our day? We are enjoying her advent emails very much!

[KF2000]

Re: When to add...

Cathy,

I guess I get to jump in here first today before I shove off for the morning, but if there was a way to help convince your husband that your kids would really be okay with just Latin for now, that is my best recommendation. To help with that, I will share with you that when we had our cottage school up and running last year, our teacher was a lovely young wife and mother who had received a dual-degree in Latin and Italian. She did so well in undergrad, that she was offered a chance to receive a masters degree in Italian with a position as a TA and by working on developing an Italian curriculum with the professor. Her first love was Latin (which she had studied starting at age 11) but this opportunity was too good to pass up so she did it. She said that the way she thinks of it is this: you have original classical Latin which is hard, and which was then "cleaned up and simplified a bit" into the form used by the Church. Then THAT form was cleaned up and simplified even more into what is now Italian. Michael would probably have a comment or two to add to that, but coming from my friend, it was a helpful context.

And what it reminds us of is that Latin is the basis for most of the modern languages that we consider "living." My son recently told me about a sailor character in a novel he is reading who found a Spanish grammar book on board and (since he knew Latin) he was able to learn the basics of Spanish in about three days (because that's all he had to do in his limited amount of free time.) Then he became fluent by speaking with the Spanish sailors on board ship.

Again, the point remains that a strong basis in Latin will make ANY language easier to learn. Adding a modern language in high school or even college will not be the same struggle it was for those of us who came at those with no Latin background. First Start French is a great little program, but it is not going to get your children where they would need to be to really know French. And from my own personal research, trying to find a program that is thorough enough without a French teacher is nearly impossible. And I know French!

So rather than trying to add something else in to an already thorough Language Arts section of the curriculum, I would maybe search the Articles section of the MP website to find some of the great articles on Latin and print them out for your husband to see/skim/read depending on his preference. That is my top recommendation to you!

AMDG,
Sarah

[TheAttachedMama]

Re: When to add...

I appreciate your advice. But assume for the moment that he can't be convinced that Latin is enough. (Keep in mind that this is not a new conversation.) About the only "pro-Latin argument" that he has responded positively to is that Latin and modern languages do not have to be mutually exclusive....we can do both. That is sort of where we have settled in our thinking.

I also know that learning Latin can make the study of many languages easier. Even knowing a little French makes learning Latin easier for me.

[Michael]

Re: When to add...

I appreciate your advice. But assume for the moment that he can't be convinced that Latin is enough. (Keep in mind that this is not a new conversation.) About the only "pro-Latin argument" that he has responded positively to is that Latin and modern languages do not have to be mutually exclusive....we can do both. That is sort of where we have settled in our thinking.

I also know that learning Latin can make the study of many languages easier. Even knowing a little French makes learning Latin easier for me.

If you would like to add French alongside Latin, we would recommend adding First Start French (FSF) in 5th grade. This allows Latina Christiana (LC) and Prima Latina to serve as an introduction to the world of inflected languages. Furthermore, while FSF is formatted like LC, it moves faster, making it challenging for 3rd/4th grade.

HTH! I'm glad you are able to study Latin alongside French. Bonam fortunam/Bonne chance!

[Girlnumber20]

Re: When to add...

I appreciate your advice. But assume for the moment that he can't be convinced that Latin is enough. (Keep in mind that this is not a new conversation.) About the only "pro-Latin argument" that he has responded positively to is that Latin and modern languages do not have to be mutually exclusive....we can do both. That is sort of where we have settled in our thinking.

I also know that learning Latin can make the study of many languages easier. Even knowing a little French makes learning Latin easier for me.

Feel for you. I tried that road, and found it was impossible since we don't speak French. We tried First Start French with a good friend helping, and we did listen to Pimsleur tapes in the car constantly for about a year- and I think we learned how to say a few things. Then we forgot it all. So we eventually settled into Latin with the hopes that it would lead to an understanding of how to learn any language well. This was very hard for me since we live in Canada where knowing French is a very significant advantage both socially and practically speaking. I remember in university, a German TA from Berlin was absolutely shocked that we American kids learned no Latin. She was constantly referring to Latin and we would give her blank stares. Finally she asked, "You know Latin, of course?" We all shook our heads. I still remember her saying "But that is very bad! How can I possibly teach you German, if you don't even know Latin?" It was just incomprehensible to her that university students had no Latin.

If you can't convince your husband, and you find it too time consuming to try to teach/learn two languages at once, then I wonder if he'd consider an inflected language for a modern language. That is just a thought- I think the famous Sayers speech suggests something like that.

[DiannaKennedy]

Re: When to add...

Cathy,

I guess I get to jump in here first today before I shove off for the morning, but if there was a way to help convince your husband that your kids would really be okay with just Latin for now, that is my best recommendation.

And what it reminds us of is that Latin is the basis for most of the modern languages that we consider "living." My son recently told me about a sailor character in a novel he is reading who found a Spanish grammar book on board and (since he knew Latin) he was able to learn the basics of Spanish in about three days (because that's all he had to do in his limited amount of free time.) Then he became fluent by speaking with the Spanish sailors on board ship.

Again, the point remains that a strong basis in Latin will make ANY language easier to learn. Adding a modern language in high school or even college will not be the same struggle it was for those of us who came at those with no Latin background. First Start French is a great little program, but it is not going to get your children where they would need to be to really know French. And from my own personal research, trying to find a program that is thorough enough without a French teacher is nearly impossible. And I know French!

So rather than trying to add something else in to an already thorough Language Arts section of the curriculum, I would maybe search the Articles section of the MP website to find some of the great articles on Latin and print them out for your husband to see/skim/read depending on his preference. That is my top recommendation to you!

AMDG,
Sarah

^^^
Totally agree with Sarah.


Zero Latin background here, but with two years of Spanish in high school, as well as a semester in college. When I'm reviewing Latin with Rachel, I'm constantly commenting on how similar the vocabulary is to Spanish words. I know it will be very easy for her, later. (I'd like for her to take Spanish later, but we're not in a hurry)

For us, having a Latin centered curriculum helps my daughter tackle tasks in a logical fashion, like translating a sentence. First, do this; now, do that. It encourages her to go through steps from beginning to end, instead of willy-nilly.

[KF2000]

Re: When to add...

I appreciate your advice. But assume for the moment that he can't be convinced that Latin is enough. (Keep in mind that this is not a new conversation.) About the only "pro-Latin argument" that he has responded positively to is that Latin and modern languages do not have to be mutually exclusive....we can do both. That is sort of where we have settled in our thinking.

I also know that learning Latin can make the study of many languages easier. Even knowing a little French makes learning Latin easier for me.

Argh! Phone troubles! I am going to try to remember what I typed at the doctor and very quickly retype it before my son's piano lesson is over!!!

I totally feel you here about navigating the viewpoints of both parents, so I don't mean to downplay that at all. I have not personally had to worry about it pertaining to Latin, but I know how much better things are when dh and I are "on the same page" - it is very important to us. So no worries there.

As Michael mentioned, FSF is a great program that could get you started for now. Because you will be more limited as far as resources go after FSF, you do not need to rush through it.

Two suggestions to keep going after FSF are: 1) the book, "Easy French Step by Step" which is really good and grammar-focused, but which might be a bit harder if you are not familiar or are not keeping up alongside. So it would be a great way to brush off your own skills if you can keep up! I have the book and like it, just have not had the chance to actually implement it yet with someone. Once I figure out how to make my days 30 hours long instead of 24, I will let you know how we are doing with it!

And 2) the Online Academy is now offering French classes! I jumped the gun and bought the textbook and grammar they use in those classes and was really happy with them - BUT they are written completely in French! So unless you can still read French, I highly recommend the MPOA route for those!

Hopefully that will give you some options for French. But if Spanish would be preferable, Michael might be able to offer whether the First Form Spanish program is still in the works (Mrs Lowe was working on it), or there is the same "Easy Spanish Step by Step" as I mentioned for French, which I know were recommendations of Mrs Lowe in the past.

Hths!
AMDG,
Sarah

[Michael]

Re: When to add...

Cathy,

We put Spanish on hold in order to write Traditional Spelling. With that program ready for release, we will be working on Spanish throughout 2018. In the meantime, as Sarah mentioned there is Easy Spanish Step-by-Step by Barbara Bregstein that Cheryl recommended.

Hopefully that will give you some options for French. But if Spanish would be preferable, Michael might be able to offer whether the First Form Spanish program is still in the works (Mrs Lowe was working on it), or there is the same "Easy Spanish Step by Step" as I mentioned for French, which I know were recommendations of Mrs Lowe in the past.

[MaggieAnnie]

Re: When to add...

My second question has to do with the wonderful Professor Carol books that Memoria Press sells. I could be missing it, but those are not scheduled in any core guide. Right? So when would be the ideal time to add those to our day? We are enjoying her advent emails very much!

Everyone else tacked your first question so I will take a crack at the 2nd

They are not scheduled but we love them.
Discovering music is just wonderful and we found it best with our highschooler who did it in 9th/10th.
We simply wrote it into the schedule after her hardest subject to give her a break...oh I wish there was just a tiny bit bigger blank space on those schedules for that kind of thing ha!.

There is a lot of possible work in it and in our case since dd did a combined American history in one year instead of the two years scheduled and we used the Discovering Music to replace that credit slot.

[bean]

Re: When to add...

The way Memoria Press schedules Latin, it really does cover part of English grammar, so that is time you aren't spending on English. We do two languages here, and French was easier after some elementary Latin. We tried it the other way first. First Start French really doesn't work unless you've already had some Latin, or at least some French exposure.

We started fun French- songs, movies, games in elementary, but I don't recommend adding full fledged French book work until probably 5th grade. Unless you have access to immersion or a fluent native speaker somehow. That's a totally different matter.

[pickandgrin]

Re: When to add...

Cathy,
You've already had good ideas and advice here...I'm curious-
Would he be open you watching a few Cheryl Lowe videos from old teacher trainings? Or reading some of her back-articles? We could round them up if that helps. Yes, unity *is* important.

In my experience, the only (American) children who are actually learning a second living language alongside their English grammar and literature are doing intensive daily study with a fluent parent, like an hour or more a day! Many, many families study languages but still, so few learn to speak that language.

If I may ask, do you think he's willing to wait until high school to add modern languages? Latin-centered definitely doesn't mean there are no other languages, it simply means Latin comes first. A student who starts LC in third or fourth can be done with the entire Latin grammar by 7th/8th grade! My oldest will be done with Fourth Form this spring at age 13. He's not even in high school yet and he did LC in Fourth ("late")! He's also in his second year of Greek (FF Greek, now the first half of Croy). It always astounds me how well he understands language. He puts me to shame! When he opened FF Greek one of his first questions was, "How does Greek make propositions?" He saw that Greek had no ablative case. He was 12. I'm not sure I could identify a preposition at 12 much less realize that Greek must have some alternate way of forming it rather than Latin's ablative case.

I say all this to illustrate that it's really Latin that is going to give the grammatical foundation for whatever language(s) you want to add later. By doing two simultaneously, I fear you might end up doing both of them poorly and getting neither of them down deep to the level of mastery. (This is no comment on you! It's just an observation I'm making based on what I've seen over the past few years here on the forum). Adding an additional language is the academic equivalent of adding another math program. When you add Latin, you feel that once. Adding French as well would feel that time pinch twice. Some other things would definitely have to be streamlined to make it possible.

You might have already thought/said all these things! Just trying to contribute to the brainstorming.

[Anita]

Re: When to add...

Geek alert:
The Romance Languages are all based on the Vulgate Latin. Which is why French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are so familiar after you have a passing knowledge of Latin (and vice-versa). But there are actually far more languages that qualify as Romance Languages — Romanian for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages

English: She always closes the window before she dines/before dining.

Latin (Ea) semper antequam cenat fenestram claudit.
Vulgar Latin (Ea) claudi[t] semper illa fenestra antequam de cenare
Apulian (Jèdde) akjude sèmbe la fenèstre prime de mangè.
Aragonese (Ella) zarra siempre a finestra antes de cenar.
Aromanian (Ea/Nâsa) ãncljidi/nkidi totna firida/fireastra ninti di tsinã.
Asturian (Ella) pieslla siempres la ventana enantes de cenar.
Bolognese (Lî) la sèra sänper la fnèstra prémma ed dsnèr.
Catalan (Ella) sempre tanca/clou la finestra abans de sopar.
Northern Corsican Ella chjode/chjude sempre u purtellu nanzu di cenà.
Southern Corsican Edda/Idda sarra sempri u purteddu nanzu/prima di cinà.
Emilian (Lē) la sèra sèmpar sù la fnèstra prima ad snàr.
Extremaduran (Ella) afecha siempri la ventana antis de cenal.
Franco-Provençal (Le) sarre toltin/tojor la fenétra avan de goutâ/dinar/sopar.
French Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner/souper.
Friulian (Jê) e siere simpri il barcon prin di cenâ.
Galician (Ela) pecha/fecha sempre a fiestra/xanela antes de cear.
Gallurese Idda chjude sempri lu balconi primma di cinà.
Italian (Ella/Lei) chiude sempre la finestra prima di cenare.
Judaeo-Spanish .אֵלייה סֵירּה סײֵמפּרֵי לה בֵֿינטאנה אנטֵיס דֵי סֵינאר; Ella cerra siempre la ventana antes de cenar.
Ladin (Ëra) stlüj dagnora la finestra impröma de cenè. (badiot) (Ëila) stluj for l viere dan maië da cëina. (gherdëina)
Centro Cadore: La sera sempre la fenestra gnante de disna. Auronzo di Cadore: La sera sempro la fenestra davoi de disnà.

Leonese (Eilla) pecha siempre la ventana primeiru de cenare.
Ligurian (Le) a saera sempre u barcun primma de cenà.
Lombard (east.)
(Bergamasque) (Lé) la sèra sèmper sö la finèstra prima de senà.
Lombard (west.) (Lee) la sara sù semper la finestra primma de disnà/scenà.
Magoua (Elle) à fàrm toujour là fnèt àvan k'à manj.
Milanese (Le) la sara semper sü la finestra prima de disnà.
Mirandese (Eilha) cerra siempre la bentana/jinela atrás de jantar.
Mozarabic إليا كلودت سامبرا لا فينسترا أبنتا دا جنارا. (reconstructed)
Mozarabic Ella cloudet sempre la fainestra abante da cenare. (reconstructed)
Neapolitan Essa 'nzerra sempe 'a fenesta primma 'e cenà.
Norman Lli barre tréjous la crouésie devaunt de daîner.
Occitan (Ela) barra/tanca sempre/totjorn la fenèstra abans de sopar.
Picard Ale frunme tojours l’ creusèe édvint éd souper.
Piedmontese Chila a sara sèmper la fnestra dnans ëd fé sin-a/dnans ëd siné.
Portuguese (Ela) fecha sempre a janela antes de jantar.
Romagnol (Lia) la ciud sëmpra la fnèstra prëma ad magnè.
Romanian Ea închide întotdeauna fereastra înainte de a cina.
Romansh Ella clauda/serra adina la fanestra avant ch'ella tschainia.
Southern Sardinian Issa serrat semp(i)ri sa bentana in antis de cenai
Northern Sardinian Issa serrat semper sa bentana in antis de chenàre.
Sassarese Edda sarra sempri lu balchoni primma di zinà.
Sicilian Iḍḍa chiui sempri la finesṭṛa anti ca pistìa/mancia.
Spanish (Ella) siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar.
Tuscan Lei serra sempre la finestra avanti cena.
Umbrian Essa chjude sempre la finestra prima de cena'.
Venetian Eła ła sara/sera sempre ła fenestra vanti de xenàr/disnar.
Walloon Ele sere todi li finiesse divant di soper.

Learning German (or any Germanic language, like English) is going to be far more difficult because the basis is completely different than the basis for the Romance languages. Learning any Asian or Cyrillic language will be similarly difficult. But the deductive, logical and analytic processes that are cemented in the process of learning Latin will aid in that endeavor if it is ever pursued.

So Latin remains your best tool for learning almost any language, despite its root.

Geek: out.

[Mary]

Re: When to add...

But there are actually far more languages that qualify as Romance Languages — Romanian for example.

*Is being very careful not to make spelling/grammatical mistakes, as working from phone means any editing will result in a deletion!*

We have friends from Romania who speak fluent English; however, their parents do not. When their parents are in town, we communicate in Latin or in Russian (Russian was a requirement in classrooms in Ceausescu's time). Romanian is pretty close to Latin and they were able to pick up quickly on what we were saying. Of course, there are obvious difficulties - such as trying to discuss engine difficulty and an out-of-order airplane restroom on their flight to the US. *LOL* But it otherwise worked out pretty well.

This doesn't help with your issue about learning Latin but it makes for an interesting story. My two cents? Some things have to be taken on faith (and centuries of evidence). If your husband does not want to be convinced, he's not going to be. I don't at all mean to sound disparaging; rather, sometimes a rational, reasoned argument isn't going to work against a belief that's very emotionally based. You may just need to ask him to trust you on this one. Your children can either have the foundation that will allow them to quickly pick up on MANY languages later on or they can pick up ONE. Also, it's a lot tougher to try to pick up two languages at once - especially, as Jessica said, if they aren't spoken fluently in the home.

It's similar to the argument about science in the classical tradition. Kids can learn some cool STEM tricks and impressive science terms that they'll quickly forget or they can build a solid foundation in math and nature's beautiful order that will allow them to travel in any direction with regard to any of the sciences - later on.

Of course, when I type this out, it sounds really harsh. Please know I'm saying this in a kind-but-firm tone of voice!

[Sugarbelle]

Re: When to add...

Reading Climbing Parnassus this past summer sealed the deal for me on learning Latin because I had serious questions about it. Someone on this forum suggested I read and I'm so glad I did.

As for French, we did a year of Classical Academic Press's French, Primer A. I thought it was excellent and very enjoyable.

I hope this makes sense because I'm writing in a migraine stupor.

[Mom2mthj]

Re: When to add...

Reading Climbing Parnassus this past summer sealed the deal for me on learning Latin because I had serious questions about it. Someone on this forum suggested I read and I'm so glad I did.

As for French, we did a year of Classical Academic Press's French, Primer A. I thought it was excellent and very enjoyable.

I hope this makes sense because I'm writing in a migraine stupor.

I enjoyed the introductory chapters to the Latin Centeed Curriculum. It seemed like the cliff notes version of climbing Parnassus. It changed the way we homeschooled.