Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

[Anita]

I’m looking hard at R&S Grade 1 for my youngest as a segue in to MP1. Can someone give me pros and cons? I already know they are thorough (from having taught R&S Math to my older kiddos). And the simple, clear format has me piqued. My hitches are:

Money — I would only have to spend about $160 on the few MPK consumables I would need. The full Rod & Staff curriculum would be about twice that.
Time — Rod & Staff is wonderful, but tedious to teach. Is Grade 1 realistic with two other full core students and a toddler rooting through my cabinets?

Thoughts?

[howiecram]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

What is making you consider that over MPK? The R&S phonics sequence is odd (I had it in my possession at one time). I would not recommend it!

[Mom2mthj]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

I’m looking hard at R&S Grade 1 for my youngest as a segue in to MP1. Can someone give me pros and cons? I already know they are thorough (from having taught R&S Math to my older kiddos). And the simple, clear format has me piqued. My hitches are:

Money — I would only have to spend about $160 on the few MPK consumables I would need. The full Rod & Staff curriculum would be about twice that.
Time — Rod & Staff is wonderful, but tedious to teach. Is Grade 1 realistic with two other full core students and a toddler rooting through my cabinets?

Thoughts?

Can you explain what you are trying to get out of R&S1 that isn't in MPK or the simply classical materials you already have? Are you hoping for less teaching time because you have others? Do you think MPK will be too easy since you are looking at R&S1? Do you want a change of pace? That might help us give better advice.

[Anita]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

I realized there wasn’t enough information in my question after I jotted it off. Think of it as a conversation starter. 😉

Silly Cowboy, 5, is not focused enough for MPK. Though he knows the majority of the academic information — cold — he hates to work outside the box. He’s not diligent with much of anything nebulous. He’s a typical, fidgety, short-attention-spanned boy who’d rather be playing with trucks. MP has a lot more enrichment built in to its core, which is can be distracting/discouraging for us both because of its rather challenging and unscripted nature. However, he attends well to workbooks (as opposed to discussion about art masterpieces and classical music). R&S seems like a very straight ahead a+b=c kind of approach. Tons of workbooks, fewer undirected lessons (which is a help to me) with explicit instruction for every lesson. I’m not knocking MP, of course. It’s just a different teaching approach and I wonder if it would be a better fit for his K/K Bridge experience than straight-up MPK.

What I like about R&S is that it is:
Cheap
Simple
Systematic
Thorough
Has very detailed lesson plans (ie tips on teaching “distractible children right before recess”)
Godly
Basic
They have end-of-grade home testing (80% is the passing rate). I sort of love the idea of a big test at the end of the academic year. It lets me know how the kids are doing and how I am doing teaching them. And it eases my mind that they are ready for the next grade. (“See? An independent test proves it! My kids are awesome!”)
My kids love it
It’s not intimidating to me

A note on that last bit:
I’m good with teaching the “3 R’s”. But teaching my 5-year-old terms like adagio; reading the biography of each composer and asking him to attend to the rhythm in a symphony make me anxious. I lose his attention and I go over his head and out of his interest level. But if I skip it, I feel guilty, like there’s something wrong with my own self-discipline. Because who doesn’t love classical music? (I don’t. I appreciate it in doses. But I’d much rather teach the kids folk music or just sing songs together. You can take the girl out of the country, but you can’t take the country out of the girl.)

By comparison, Rod & Staff has a lovely little music program for students starting at Grade 1. They teach how to read music, how to recognize scales, how to understand whole, half, quarter and eighth notes, and it builds at a progressive rate (over a span of grade levels) until your student is proficient at reading music. It’s the cutest. And musical terms like piano, pianissimo and andante are not introduced until later levels. Much more breathing room for me there.

Their art programs are similar. Very basic, very doable, very detailed instruction with the hows and whys clearly laid out (ie “This craft builds recognition and execution of light and dark colors and builds practice in coloring within small spaces”). MP crafts, on the other hand, gave me fits because it always seemed so complicated to gather all the ingredients and actually execute them. I was forever running back and forth to the craft store (feeling inadequate). And I didn’t understand many of the directions. (But this was also at a time in my teaching career when I was teaching my nearly nonverbal older son who was resistant to EVERYTHING. So it’s likelier just a psychological block I have here.) Rod and Staff “Art Pacs” just take basic art supplies like crayons, glue and construction paper. Score.

I looked at the Grade 1 Reading Worksheets and I absolutely love them. They are about the size of Moby Dick (450+ pages, front and back), but they’re $11 and my son would eat them up. (So would his siblings.) So I wondered if the entire Reading program was worth it.

To be clear:
This is not a knock against MP! My kids have special needs. They appreciate and delight in simple formats. And I delight in explicit instruction, every lesson, every day. Would Rod and Staff be a good idea to sub for MPK? Having looked at the scope and sequence of the material, he will be more than well prepared for MP1 once it is finished. And MP1 is fun! We are finally at a place where my kids are understanding and really enjoying the material. And I’m starting to feel the love of teaching coming back. It’s a great fit for us. But getting my younger son off the ground might take a little doing. HOWEVER, this is a typical “grass-is-greener” supposition on my part. The grass over there might be brown. So does anyone know the color? Let me know. 😄

[Colomama]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

I have tried lots of phonics programs with my oldest. Lots. I think FSR is the best out there. Period. I think rod and staff would over complicate the need and actually be more time consuming, not less.

If the other MP components stress you, eliminate them. Maybe you should operate off of individal pdfs instead of the full curriculum guide. Then, you won't even see the things you're skipping. Your kids get lots of enrichment, trust me. Buy the phonics pdf and the math pdf. Done

He'll here Bible from your big kids and plenty of their read alouds. He's good. I have heard of people using rod and staff reading as their Bible instruction, though.

Are you looking for some beginning phonics for his full kindergarten year or a shorter period?

Also, rod and staff just updated their beginning reading program. There might be hitches and issues. Just sayin

[howiecram]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

I have tried lots of phonics programs with my oldest. Lots. I think FSR is the best out there. Period. I think rod and staff would over complicate the need and actually be more time consuming, not less.

If the other MP components stress you, eliminate them. Maybe you should operate off of individal pdfs instead of the full curriculum guide. Then, you won't even see the things you're skipping. Your kids get lots of enrichment, trust me. Buy the phonics pdf and the math pdf. Done

He'll here Bible from your big kids and plenty of their read alouds. He's good. I have heard of people using rod and staff reading as their Bible instruction, though.

Are you looking for some beginning phonics for his full kindergarten year or a shorter period?

Also, rod and staff just updated their beginning reading program. There might be hitches and issues. Just sayin

I am with Michelle....FSR (with SC 1 plans only for movement activities - we do them, then do the writing....it has been working so much better with my 6 year old son...who wants to do..nothing (except what he wants to do). Add math.. call school done for him! The enrichment he will hear/get from older kids. However, I will fully admit that that is all my son was doing....and I felt like he was not doing enough "beautiful" things and pulled out Mother of Divine Grace for religion, and art. I have dropped that already! He full participates in SC3 Bible and Catechism. He is doing the MODG poetry and SC1/3 recitations. He draws a lot, builds magnatiles, legos, log cabins and enjoys any and all stories. I have been just setting out the read aloud from MPK..not on a schedule and ALL the books have been read. We have 405 weeks of books out. They have all been well read, so I will put them away and then start building the next 5 weeks. I pull out the enrichment questions a little at a time. No pressure and it is getting done more often/better than when we were trying to do it on a schedule. I go over the art cards a few times (all in a photo album, easy to flip through and look at whenever. We are not so good at the music either. The art packs are....meh...(we have grades 1&2). My older daughter is doing "Let's Learn Music", a Mother of Divine Grace 2nd grade recommendation.

I personally think you are a busy mamma and adding R&S will not make things easier? Good luck in your discernment!

[Anita]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

In the interest of total transparency: Y’all know what I want? Someone else to teach this kid how to read so we can get on to the fun stuff. I am not a kindergarten teacher; that’s someone else’s calling. I’m more like Third Grade. But listen: Compared to the challenges of teaching his older siblings, teaching this one to read should be a walk in the park. And I’ve taught MPK material so (FREAKIN) thoroughly, I don’t even need a lesson plan. (But I do have all the digital plans, so no worries.) In general? Put the stuff in front of us and I can work it out with the Teacher’s Manuals. Could I do that with Rod and Staff? No, ninni-no-no-no.

How’s about an MPK redux? Here we go:

FSR A-E (I already have the Teachers Manuals, phonics flash cards, etc.)
+ The 15lb box of Rod and Staff Reading Worksheets (because I really do love them and I can pick and choose which ones will go with FSR exercises)
+ MP Copybook 1
+ Rod & Staff Math 1 (ditto on the manuals and aids)
+ Various (simple!) enrichment materials
+ Osmotic learning from siblings
+ Playing outside
= Successful Kindergarten That Doesn’t Make Me Whine (“Teaching is HARRRRRD!”) and collapse in a jelly-fied heap

....

Yeah?

[KF2000]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

Anita,
I think you have had a lot of help to get to the root of what you want, which is the key here. Your new plan looks like exactly what I was thinking as I was catching up on this thread - take the parts that you know will work well and get done, and leave off the parts that don't. Frankly, we don't do much of the K Enrichment at all. We do the art cards and we do the Dr Seuss books because I have them. My daughter does not even know I have the craft book - because that would take *so*much*time*. Christmas break will be a great time for her sisters to help her with that. We really focus on the meat and potatoes - FSR and Math, along with religion, read aloud, poetry, and art cards. But I don't use the guide for these - we just talk about them for a few minutes, and then memorize. That's all. Short and sweet is all she can handle. We do one block of work time for about an hour, and then do the read aloud at naptime.

Remember - these are tools. You use them the way you need to use them.

AMDG,
Sarah

[howiecram]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

In the interest of total transparency: Y’all know what I want? Someone else to teach this kid how to read so we can get on to the fun stuff. I am not a kindergarten teacher; that’s someone else’s calling. I’m more like Third Grade. But listen: Compared to the challenges of teaching his older siblings, teaching this one to read should be a walk in the park. And I’ve taught MPK material so (FREAKIN) thoroughly, I don’t even need a lesson plan. (But I do have all the digital plans, so no worries.) In general? Put the stuff in front of us and I can work it out with the Teacher’s Manuals. Could I do that with Rod and Staff? No, ninni-no-no-no.

How’s about an MPK redux? Here we go:

FSR A-E (I already have the Teachers Manuals, phonics flash cards, etc.)
+ The 15lb box of Rod and Staff Reading Worksheets (because I really do love them and I can pick and choose which ones will go with FSR exercises)
+ MP Copybook 1
+ Rod & Staff Math 1 (ditto on the manuals and aids)
+ Various (simple!) enrichment materials
+ Osmotic learning from siblings
+ Playing outside
= Successful Kindergarten That Doesn’t Make Me Whine (“Teaching is HARRRRRD!”) and collapse in a jelly-fied heap

....

Yeah?

That sounds good! I totally get you! I am facing K again, next year as well. I am rather "done" with K too! My oldest had to do All About Reading, so I own it. I thought I was going to use that + explode the code workbook. However, since these kids seem to be neurotypical, All About Reading is way overkill. I tried to start my son with it, over FSR and wound up back with FSR. He actually kinda hated All About Reading...he does not "love" FSR, but it is going well and we were able to pick up the pace! (He is 6 though). We did Sc-c last year (best decision ever) so numbers books are done. He is almost done with R&S math 1, book 1 and has those facts down! (Such a different child than the first)!

So, I really do hear you!

[Mom2mthj]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

Anita,
I think you have had a lot of help to get to the root of what you want, which is the key here. Your new plan looks like exactly what I was thinking as I was catching up on this thread - take the parts that you know will work well and get done, and leave off the parts that don't. Frankly, we don't do much of the K Enrichment at all. We do the art cards and we do the Dr Seuss books because I have them. My daughter does not even know I have the craft book - because that would take *so*much*time*. Christmas break will be a great time for her sisters to help her with that. We really focus on the meat and potatoes - FSR and Math, along with religion, read aloud, poetry, and art cards. But I don't use the guide for these - we just talk about them for a few minutes, and then memorize. That's all. Short and sweet is all she can handle. We do one block of work time for about an hour, and then do the read aloud at naptime.

Remember - these are tools. You use them the way you need to use them.

AMDG,
Sarah

I agree with Sarah! Go with what you know and keep it simple. For enrichment (fill in items to keep him busy) my 4yo loves the Kumon workbooks for tracing and cutting and pasting. They are printed on really nice paper, I take them to kinko's to have the spine cut off and I can dole them out one at a time when I need him busy while I work with another. The my first book of cutting, my first book of pasting are good starts and move into the easy crafts book. Nothing required besides a pair of scissors and a glue stick. The paper is nice and sturdy so the kids can actually cut it. The tracing ones I use to work on pencil grip. He thinks he doesn't want to write, but it is my back door to getting him ready.

Enjoy the process. One thing I have found with MP is it so much easier to do a good job of teaching the second time around using the materials. I used to get bored and want to try out a new curriculum, but it really is more efficient to stick with what you know if it is working.

[jen1134]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

Okay lady, here's my two cents:

You had to work SO HARD and do EVERY LAST THING with your oldest because he NEEDED it.

Your 5yo doesn't.

You get to be NORMAL this time.

That means you get to do what the rest of us do: use what the child in front of us needs and pick/choose/leave the rest.

My 5yo does MPK recitation
MPK/SC1 Phonics and Math every day with some, but not all, of the SC movement activities (we don't read everything assigned for the ALS Readers or Classical Phonics, unless I know she needs extra practice)
We read a GCB Bible story once a week
We do copybook writing/fixing/illustrating, each on it's own day
We skip copybook's "Language Lesson" unless there's a specific word I know she won't get
We memorize copybook verses by simply reciting them each day
We review flashcards most days -- working up to every day
She sits in on the older kids' enrichment (done by Daddy once a week)

THAT'S IT. ~One hour/day.

Done.

Middle/high school is my comfort zone, but MP has shown me that the little ages can be so cute, and awe-filled. NOT because of Enrichment, but because of the joy in little eyes that finally know M says "mmmm for Mommy".

You've made it to normal, Mama. Relish it.

[Anita]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

Okay lady, here's my two cents:

You had to work SO HARD and do EVERY LAST THING with your oldest because he NEEDED it.

Your 5yo doesn't.

You get to be NORMAL this time.

That means you get to do what the rest of us do: use what the child in front of us needs and pick/choose/leave the rest.

My 5yo does MPK recitation
MPK/SC1 Phonics and Math every day with some, but not all, of the SC movement activities (we don't read everything assigned for the ALS Readers or Classical Phonics, unless I know she needs extra practice)
We read a GCB Bible story once a week
We do copybook writing/fixing/illustrating, each on it's own day
We skip copybook's "Language Lesson" unless there's a specific word I know she won't get
We memorize copybook verses by simply reciting them each day
We review flashcards most days -- working up to every day
She sits in on the older kids' enrichment (done by Daddy once a week)

THAT'S IT. ~One hour/day.

Done.

Middle/high school is my comfort zone, but MP has shown me that the little ages can be so cute, and awe-filled. NOT because of Enrichment, but because of the joy in little eyes that finally know M says "mmmm for Mommy".

You've made it to normal, Mama. Relish it.

I love all the feedback. But this one made me smile the widest.
Thank you all — from the bottom of my black, shriveled, little kindergarten-hating heart

[DiannaKennedy]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

In the interest of total transparency: Y’all know what I want? Someone else to teach this kid how to read so we can get on to the fun stuff. I am not a kindergarten teacher; that’s someone else’s calling. I’m more like Third Grade.

I laughed SO DARN HARD at this!

YES! I am reveling in the 2nd/3rd grade realm. The literature is lovely, I know not to stress too much about spelling, and I actually understand the Latin lessons.

I had a GF text me the other day, as she was drowning in Flash Cards. (LC and GM)
I texted her "I'll see you the flash card ocean, and raise you SOUNDING OUT CVC WORDS with a K student."
Her text back? "You win."

Phew ---- that is some tedious work.

[Mom2mthj]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

That sounds good! I totally get you! I am facing K again, next year as well. I am rather "done" with K too! My oldest had to do All About Reading, so I own it. I thought I was going to use that + explode the code workbook. However, since these kids seem to be neurotypical, All About Reading is way overkill. I tried to start my son with it, over FSR and wound up back with FSR. He actually kinda hated All About Reading...he does not "love" FSR, but it is going well and we were able to pick up the pace! (He is 6 though). We did Sc-c last year (best decision ever) so numbers books are done. He is almost done with R&S math 1, book 1 and has those facts down! (Such a different child than the first)!

So, I really do hear you!

Isn't it funny how different kids from the same family can be? I did buy AAR1 for my little guy because he really isn't writing yet at 4. He loves it mostly because of the ziggy puppet and the ziggy games. It is always "can ziggy read with us?" And then we have to go FIND the ziggy puppet. It would have been good for kid#3 but it is pretty much overkill for this kid. We might have a two minute lesson (he likes change the word), play the games for the lesson, and read a story each day. We do play the ziggy file folder games with the word cards because he loves them. His older brother will play as well, but he gets a spelling word instead of a reading word. I am debating about whether to continue with level 2 (we probably will) but I doubt we will go all the way through. Out of curiosity...what level of AAR lines up with the start of MP1?

[howiecram]

Re: Quick question: Rod and Staff 1 vs MPK

Isn't it funny how different kids from the same family can be? I did buy AAR1 for my little guy because he really isn't writing yet at 4. He loves it mostly because of the ziggy puppet and the ziggy games. It is always "can ziggy read with us?" And then we have to go FIND the ziggy puppet. It would have been good for kid#3 but it is pretty much overkill for this kid. We might have a two minute lesson (he likes change the word), play the games for the lesson, and read a story each day. We do play the ziggy file folder games with the word cards because he loves them. His older brother will play as well, but he gets a spelling word instead of a reading word. I am debating about whether to continue with level 2 (we probably will) but I doubt we will go all the way through. Out of curiosity...what level of AAR lines up with the start of MP1?

In my opinion, they are hard to match up! AAR1 only covers short vowels, and blends. AAR 2 gets very involved in syllables and teaches silent e and some, but not all the long vowels FSR A-E teach. I have yet to teach MP1st or 2nd, so I don't know that sequence as well. AARis a solid program, but way overkill for an average learner (and expensive). You would definetly need to do AAR 1 & 2 and then probably still need to do FSRE to begin 1st grade. If you complete all 4 levels, you could start at grade 3 literature though. I did not realize that some kids could do 2-3 levels in 1 year ( if you go year round, but that is quite the investment - around $360). I still like the idea of doing real books and learning to read at the same time. I am excited about doing MP1 next year, since my oldest has been doing the special needs track!