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    #16
    Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
    Bean,
    Are you doing the ASPC yourselves? Or do you have help? And how's it going (if you are)?

    AMDG,
    Sarah
    Ask me again in a month, lol.

    We started great, and dd likes the book. She tends to read-to-learn pretty well. That's mostly how she does math, although we do sit on the couch and work a few examples on a white board sometimes. We may need to do the same with parts of the ASPC readings, too.

    She floundered a little around the end of chapter 3, and it seemed to me that what she was studying would be easier with an introduction to vectors (maybe this is in Novare Physical Science?) I should mention that 2 physics professors pointed out to me that vectors were missing from the program. It didn't take long to see where they needed to be. (I don't want anyone to think I'm smarter than I am.)

    I was completely in the weeds with a grad school project, and we were a few weeks ahead of the family we're doing labs with, so I have her doing the lectures and notes for the first part of the free Georgia Public Broadcasting Physics Fundamentals: http://www.gpb.org/physics-fundament...sics/semester1 (Teacher's materials can be purchased in $20 download). It's a worthwhile supplement at that cost.

    Looking at the Novare schedule, Novare has a fair amount of "in class" demos and discussion scheduled. Over the weekend I plan to look back over that schedule and see if it would be worth lining up some of the topics with the GPB lectures (which does a lot of demo labs) to fill that niche after we finish the Newton's Laws chapters in both programs, and a lab.

    We don't especially like the in-book labs, but do really like the lab report hand book. I like the emphasis on producing quality work throughout the different aspects of the course.

    We didn't choose the Intro Physics book because the physical science course dd did the year before last was an 8th/ 9th grade course (Derek Owens), and I thought it would be too much repetition. Dd isn't one to shy away from math story problems. She has thrived with the Foerster Algebra books, but the math problems in the Novare are really... complicated? Lots of speed of light problems in the first 3 chapters.

    Since we haven't studied light, dd says it feels like an exercise in "plug & chug". They seem out of context to her, even though I suspect it is more to give them practice with very large (and small) numbers. It's kind of become a running joke, "Oh no! Another one!"

    Another reason we choose ASPC was because we thought we would use the Advanced Chemistry book next year. Now I'm not so sure. I'll just wait and see how this year goes.

    Hope this helps~
    Last edited by bean; 09-28-2017, 08:33 PM.
    Bean. Long time MP user. Almost retired homeschool mom and university faculty/ librarian. Teaching a "Children's Lit for Educators" class this semester!

    I apologize in advance for my typos and grammatical mishaps.

    DD (16) Graduating May 2022!
    Mechanical Engineering

    "School Administrator" to niece (9): MP 3A

    Comment


      #17
      Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

      Originally posted by bean View Post
      Ask me again in a month, lol.

      We started great, and dd likes the book. She tends to read-to-learn pretty well. That's mostly how she does math, although we do sit on the couch and work a few examples on a white board sometimes. We may need to do the same with parts of the ASPC readings, too.

      She floundered a little around the end of chapter 3, and it seemed to me that what she was studying would be easier with an introduction to vectors (maybe this is in Novare Physical Science?) I should mention that 2 physics professors pointed out to me that vectors were missing from the program. It didn't take long to see where they needed to be. (I don't want anyone to think I'm smarter than I am.)

      I was completely in the weeds with a grad school project, and we were a few weeks ahead of the family we're doing labs with, so I have her doing the lectures and notes for the first part of the free Georgia Public Broadcasting Physics Fundamentals: http://www.gpb.org/physics-fundament...sics/semester1 (Teacher's materials can be purchased in $20 download). It's a worthwhile supplement at that cost.

      Looking at the Novare schedule, Novare has a fair amount of "in class" demos and discussion scheduled. Over the weekend I plan to look back over that schedule and see if it would be worth lining up some of the topics with the GPB lectures (which does a lot of demo labs) to fill that niche after we finish the Newton's Laws chapters in both programs, and a lab.

      We don't especially like the in-book labs, but do really like the lab report hand book. I like the emphasis on producing quality work throughout the different aspects of the course.

      We didn't choose the Intro Physics book because the physical science course dd did the year before last was an 8th/ 9th grade course (Derek Owens), and I thought it would be too much repetition. Dd isn't one to shy away from math story problems. She has thrived with the Foerster Algebra books, but the math problems in the Novare are really... complicated? Lots of speed of light problems in the first 3 chapters.

      Since we haven't studied light, dd says it feels like an exercise in "plug & chug". They seem out of context to her, even though I suspect it is more to give them practice with very large (and small) numbers. It's kind of become a running joke, "Oh no! Another one!"

      Another reason we choose ASPC was because we thought we would use the Advanced Chemistry book next year. Now I'm not so sure. I'll just wait and see how this year goes.

      Hope this helps~
      How many days per week are you giving to ASPC? My daughter and I are targeting starting next week. I wanted to give her a month to get settled into her Lukeion Greek 2 class and get a jump start on the geometry plans. Honestly, I don't think we will do many demos beyond the labs in the book, but I plan to find some Utube type videos. I will have to check out your link as it sounds great.

      I will have to look ahead to chapter 3 in a bit more detail. My understanding of "conceptual" aka "algebra-based" physics is that it doesn't include vectors since the students haven't had trig. The vector based stuff is what is usually taught in a junior level physics class. My son is doing earth science pretty independently, so I was hoping that ASPC would be pretty straightforward as well.

      I don't know about next year either. My daughter is doing a chemistry and biology lab intensive with a friend in about 3 weeks so at least one of them (probably bio) will count as the "with lab" part of the course. I am very excited to have her do those labs hands-on even if we do more labs later on during the classes.

      Looking forward to hearing updates from anyone on ASPC!
      Dorinda

      Plans for 2021-2022
      15th year homeschooling, 12th year with Memoria Press
      DD College Freshman
      DS 10th grade - Lukeion Latin and Greek, Vita Beata Greek Dramas
      DS 8th grade - Vita Beata Literature
      DS 3rd grade - Vita Beata Literature, Right Start F, First Form Latin

      Comment


        #18
        Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

        Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
        How many days per week are you giving to ASPC? My daughter and I are targeting starting next week. I wanted to give her a month to get settled into her Lukeion Greek 2 class and get a jump start on the geometry plans. Honestly, I don't think we will do many demos beyond the labs in the book, but I plan to find some Utube type videos. I will have to check out your link as it sounds great.

        I will have to look ahead to chapter 3 in a bit more detail. My understanding of "conceptual" aka "algebra-based" physics is that it doesn't include vectors since the students haven't had trig. The vector based stuff is what is usually taught in a junior level physics class. My son is doing earth science pretty independently, so I was hoping that ASPC would be pretty straightforward as well.

        I don't know about next year either. My daughter is doing a chemistry and biology lab intensive with a friend in about 3 weeks so at least one of them (probably bio) will count as the "with lab" part of the course. I am very excited to have her do those labs hands-on even if we do more labs later on during the classes.

        Looking forward to hearing updates from anyone on ASPC!
        To be honest, the little bit of trig dd has needed for the GPB section has been fine. Not any more difficult than the trig at the end of the Foerster Algebra 1 book. I plan to spend some time with the ASPC this weekend to see to what extent we will continue to use it. Hopefully completely with a little supplementing. I'll keep you posted. ETA- We do physics 4 days a week.
        Bean. Long time MP user. Almost retired homeschool mom and university faculty/ librarian. Teaching a "Children's Lit for Educators" class this semester!

        I apologize in advance for my typos and grammatical mishaps.

        DD (16) Graduating May 2022!
        Mechanical Engineering

        "School Administrator" to niece (9): MP 3A

        Comment


          #19
          Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

          Originally posted by Jen in Japan View Post
          Yes! Just remember that your child really should have completed Alg I and Alg II before attempting chemistry. Like, completed with an A or B, not "my child recognizes algebra". I believe that is why many high school science teachers are moving toward the sequence: Physics (non-vector), Biology, Chemistry, AP something. This allows a student's brain to mature in the intuition of math. Chemistry is, at heart, applied math with a few cool concepts and definitions.


          Jen, a high school chemistry teacher.
          Hear, Hear! Chemistry is, at heart, applied math with a few cool concepts and definitions. And so is physics

          Momgineer, I used to agree with your viewpoint (and for most of your kiddos, taking alg2 concurrent with chem works, because of your support and their math understanding). But I have changed my view to Jen's. It has more to do with developing the student's problem-solving ability, not so much the specific math skills needed. MP's math sequence: alg1, alg2, geom, pre-calc, calc facilitates completing alg2 *before* chem, which does help most students do better in chem.
          Cindy Davis
          Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
          ds-26 college graduate: independent young adult
          ds-24 college graduate: 3rd year med school
          dd-22 college graduate: working as a registered nurse

          Comment


            #20
            Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

            Cindy- it's not my viewpoint. I really don't have much of an opinion personally and I feel each child is different on when they can handle chemistry. I was only trying to point out what the publisher of the book recommends. I didn't want anyone to think they can't do chemistry in high school because they have to wait till after algebra 2. The publisher says you can take it concurrent with algebra 2.
            MP has algebra 1 in 8th and algebra 2 in 9th. I certainly don't recommend taking chemistry in 9th (except for advanced students who took algebra 1 in 6 or 7 and already had both high school level physical science and biology, but that is a rare advanced student). Like you said, their brains just are not ready for the problem solving strategies. But consider a student who needed extra time to mature in middle school and didn't take algebra 1 till 9th and then took geometry (because that is the order some other schools do and they may not know about MP's preferred order) in 10th and is only doing algebra 2 in 11. This could be a strong student who took the time to mature in math earlier and is ready for the word problems in chemistry. They could take it in 11th and not wait till senior year. That leaves them the ability to take a college prep science senior year.
            Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
            DD, 27, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
            DS, 25, BS '18 mechanical engineering
            DS, 23, BS '20 Chemsitry, pursuing phd at Wash U
            (DDIL married #3 in 2020, MPOA grad, BA '20 philosophy, pusrsing phd at SLU)
            DS, 21, Physics and math major
            DD, 18, dyslexic, 12th grade dual enrolled
            DS, 14, future engineer/scientist/ world conquerer 9th MPOA diploma student
            DD, 8 , 2nd Future astronaut, robot building space artist

            Comment


              #21
              Re: 7th and 8th Grade Science

              Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post

              Momgineer, I used to agree with your viewpoint

              I like the way bean said it, "I don't want anyone thinking I am smarter than I am." I used to have the same view as momgineer, too. That is, after all, how it was Back in the Day and it worked for us, right?

              Not exactly. Back when I took chemistry in the early 80's concurrent with algebra II, my chem class was more conceptual than mathematical. I loved it! I went on to take AP Chem, scored a 4 (still pretty conceptual AND I was memorizing the algorithmd for solving recognizable problem sets), then went to university to study chemistry. Unfortunately for me, it was a top-ranked world-renown chemistry school. By October of my freshman year, I was in way over my head. By not "mathing up" my high school chem classes, including the AP version, I had missed that chemistry is truly more math based than I was led to believe.

              IN ADDITION, I taught chemistry two years ago at a public high school. Four sections. I was able to update my viewpoint by noticing that only the very best math students seemed to be understanding, much less "getting" what was going on in our class. Publishers must have recognized the errors of the 80's because the intro level seemed more mathy than I remembered. The school also offered a less-math version of chemistry for credit, but it was going to be obvious on high school transcripts. That said, I began to revise my thinking: not only should a student have completed the *content* of Algebra II, he should possibly have completed it in a way that his math intuition has time to mature. That is why I said the student should have completed the algebra courses with an A or B, not just "recognize" algebra.


              College chem is going to have math. Like 85% of the class will be math. If high school chem is to prepare the student, he must have those math goals in mind when he sees it in high school. He must have "math intuition" and the ability to think through possible solutions, not just a memory of "when I see this, do that". Again, I am not that smart. Most of this is what I observed two years ago with my 85 students in four sections of high school chemistry. It was then that I began to revise my own experiences in light of those observations.


              Edited to add: Momgineer, we were typing at the same time. I agree with you. There will be students who can handle the math of chemistry while not following the strict order of math/science completion.


              Jen
              Last edited by Jen (formerly) in Japan; 09-29-2017, 06:47 AM.
              DS, 28 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace)

              DS, 26 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, ENGAGED!

              DD, 23 yrs, graduated from The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC; 2nd grade teacher.

              DS, 13 yrs, 9th grade; attends a private classical school, 7th - 12th.

              All homeschooled for some/all of their K-12 education.

              Me: retired after 16 years of continuous homeschooling, now a high school chemistry teacher at a large Catholic high school

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