Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Classical Composition-Narrative

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Classical Composition-Narrative

    Hello, I am struggling to teach Classical Composition, which is very frustrating for me because I am a former high school English teacher. I feel like this should come more easily for me since I have a degree in it, but of course, I was educated using progressive methods. I find the DVDs very helpful in teaching the new figures of description, but there seems to be a discrepancy between the Classical Composition books and DVDs.

    For example, we're working on Narrative stage Lesson 15, Variations pt 1. The DVD says to use metalepsis in the examples, but the book says to use hyperbole and diminutio (but those two aren't explained on the DVD). Do you use one or the other or all three? It's easier for him to understand them when he watches the DVD, so I'm inclined to just go with the DVD, but in this particular case, we're really struggling with metalepsis. Since the book does not give an example of metalepsis (for this lesson), I'm not sure what he's getting at. And yes, I have reviewed the explanation and examples in the back of the book.

    Thank you for your help!
    Pam

    #2
    Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

    Originally posted by woolery81 View Post
    Hello, I am struggling to teach Classical Composition, which is very frustrating for me because I am a former high school English teacher. I feel like this should come more easily for me since I have a degree in it, but of course, I was educated using progressive methods. I find the DVDs very helpful in teaching the new figures of description, but there seems to be a discrepancy between the Classical Composition books and DVDs.

    For example, we're working on Narrative stage Lesson 15, Variations pt 1. The DVD says to use metalepsis in the examples, but the book says to use hyperbole and diminutio (but those two aren't explained on the DVD). Do you use one or the other or all three? It's easier for him to understand them when he watches the DVD, so I'm inclined to just go with the DVD, but in this particular case, we're really struggling with metalepsis. Since the book does not give an example of metalepsis (for this lesson), I'm not sure what he's getting at. And yes, I have reviewed the explanation and examples in the back of the book.

    Thank you for your help!
    Pam
    I followed the DVDs very closely when we did the Narrative stage. As long as he is practicing figures of description, I don't think it matters much which ones you cover in a particular lesson.
    DS15, MPOA HS Comp III & Material Logic, mostly MP with substitutions 2020-2021

    "[May] the peace of God, which passes all understanding, ... keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

      Originally posted by woolery81 View Post
      Hello, I am struggling to teach Classical Composition, which is very frustrating for me because I am a former high school English teacher. I feel like this should come more easily for me since I have a degree in it, but of course, I was educated using progressive methods. I find the DVDs very helpful in teaching the new figures of description, but there seems to be a discrepancy between the Classical Composition books and DVDs.

      For example, we're working on Narrative stage Lesson 15, Variations pt 1. The DVD says to use metalepsis in the examples, but the book says to use hyperbole and diminutio (but those two aren't explained on the DVD). Do you use one or the other or all three? It's easier for him to understand them when he watches the DVD, so I'm inclined to just go with the DVD, but in this particular case, we're really struggling with metalepsis. Since the book does not give an example of metalepsis (for this lesson), I'm not sure what he's getting at. And yes, I have reviewed the explanation and examples in the back of the book.

      Thank you for your help!
      Pam
      Good Morning Pam,

      Great question, I can see how confusion was created in this situation. Until recently (last couple years), we did not include any direction regarding which particular figure of speech to use, rather, we allowed the teacher (via the DVD or the parent) to make that determination. After receiving a good deal of questions asking how the teacher should determine which to use, we decided to include it in the manual. Unfortunately, there are lessons where the manual does not correspond to what the teacher on the DVD is recommending. As far as implementation goes, you can opt to use the figures of speech we include in the manual, or those that the DVD mentions, or any others covered in other lessons. What we would recommend avoiding is using the same figures over and over again; the student should use a variety throughout the Narrative program.

      Metalepsis is not an easy figure of speech to weave into a piece of writing. If your student struggles with that particular figure of speech, there is nothing wrong with skipping it. These same devices will be used throughout the Classical Composition program and may be easier for your student to comprehend and implement in later stages.


      Best,
      Ryan Weston
      Director, Cottage Schools and Distributor Relations
      Memoria Press

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

        Thank you! That is very helpful. I think we will just skip metalepsis for now and try it later in a different lesson.


        Originally posted by rweston View Post
        Good Morning Pam,

        Great question, I can see how confusion was created in this situation. Until recently (last couple years), we did not include any direction regarding which particular figure of speech to use, rather, we allowed the teacher (via the DVD or the parent) to make that determination. After receiving a good deal of questions asking how the teacher should determine which to use, we decided to include it in the manual. Unfortunately, there are lessons where the manual does not correspond to what the teacher on the DVD is recommending. As far as implementation goes, you can opt to use the figures of speech we include in the manual, or those that the DVD mentions, or any others covered in other lessons. What we would recommend avoiding is using the same figures over and over again; the student should use a variety throughout the Narrative program.

        Metalepsis is not an easy figure of speech to weave into a piece of writing. If your student struggles with that particular figure of speech, there is nothing wrong with skipping it. These same devices will be used throughout the Classical Composition program and may be easier for your student to comprehend and implement in later stages.


        Best,

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

          Pam,
          I just wanted to offer a word of encouragement. I remember the early days of our family using CC, and I was so confused! It took *me* a while to figure out the "point" of everything, and to see how it was going to fit together to help my children become good writers. I can tell you honestly that it was usually late in the year before a level really "clicked" for us - and then we would have to turn around not that long after and go right back into that place of confusion to start another level! But being farther down the path, I can look back now and realize the bigger picture a lot better - and it is so worth all the confusion and effort. (My oldest kids are doing level V this year)

          I was not trained in teaching, but my educational background was pretty sound across the board - but this program is not just about the mechanics of putting together a good paragraph, and then building paragraphs into a written work. This program is about thinking. Children gradually work their way up toward thinking through a good argument and then expressing it coherently. But I did not know that difference until I clued into it a few levels in.

          Hang in there! You will be glad you did!
          AMDG,
          Sarah
          2020-2021
          16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
          DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
          DS, 16
          DD, 14
          DD, 12
          DD, 10
          DD, 8
          DD, 6
          +DS+
          DS, 2

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

            Thank you so much for the encouragement! It is so helpful to hear from someone "farther down the road." So does that mean I shouldn't worry that my 6th grader doesn't know the basics of putting together the typical "5 paragraph essay"? I love what they're doing in CC, but I also worry that he's not getting the same skills as his peers are getting in school. And although I know this is likely far better in the long run, the English teacher in me feels like I should be assigning essays.

            Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
            Pam,
            I just wanted to offer a word of encouragement. I remember the early days of our family using CC, and I was so confused! It took *me* a while to figure out the "point" of everything, and to see how it was going to fit together to help my children become good writers. I can tell you honestly that it was usually late in the year before a level really "clicked" for us - and then we would have to turn around not that long after and go right back into that place of confusion to start another level! But being farther down the path, I can look back now and realize the bigger picture a lot better - and it is so worth all the confusion and effort. (My oldest kids are doing level V this year)
            I was not trained in teaching, but my educational background was pretty sound across the board - but this program is not just about the mechanics of putting together a good paragraph, and then building paragraphs into a written work. This program is about thinking. Children gradually work their way up toward thinking through a good argument and then expressing it coherently. But I did not know that difference until I clued into it a few levels in.

            Hang in there! You will be glad you did!
            AMDG,
            Sarah

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

              Originally posted by woolery81 View Post
              Thank you so much for the encouragement! It is so helpful to hear from someone "farther down the road." So does that mean I shouldn't worry that my 6th grader doesn't know the basics of putting together the typical "5 paragraph essay"? I love what they're doing in CC, but I also worry that he's not getting the same skills as his peers are getting in school. And although I know this is likely far better in the long run, the English teacher in me feels like I should be assigning essays.
              No need to worry: in Chreia/Maxim (the stage after Narrative), they'll be writing EIGHT-paragraph essays. All year long.
              Jennifer
              Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

              DS16: MP, MPOA, HSC, Breaking the Barrier French
              DS15: MP, MPOA, HSC
              DS12: Mash-up of 6/7M
              DS11: SC 4
              DD9: 3A with First Form Latin (long story!)
              DD8: Mash-up of SC 1/2
              DD5: January birthday, using SC B and C as a two-year JrK

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

                Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
                No need to worry: in Chreia/Maxim (the stage after Narrative), they'll be writing EIGHT-paragraph essays. All year long.
                Yes, but they are very formalized 8 paragraphs that are not particularly cohesive and certainly not at all like a modern "5 paragraph" essay. But that's ok. Once students learn how to write their ideas and form arguements, transitioning to "5 paragraph essay" and "reasearch paper" is pretty easy. You don't need to teach them to make a thesis or develop their ideas. They already know that. You just need to teach them the form to follow.
                For what it is worth- my homeschooled son went to public school in 8th-12th. It is a high ranking, well respected public school where top notch students can take AP history in 9th grade. So you would think those 8th graders would be able to crank out essays like crazy. Nope. They didn't even teach "5 paragraph essays" till 9th grade. Before that it was all informal writing with much "creative" writing. My son was a very poor writer in my estimation (but a great reader and thinker) when he entered 8th grade public school but he was at the head of his English class all year. So don't stress that a 6th grader isn't mastering "5 paragraph" essays.
                Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
                DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
                DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
                DS, 21, chemistry major
                DS, 18, Physics major
                DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
                DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
                DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

                  Originally posted by momgineer View Post
                  Yes, but they are very formalized 8 paragraphs that are not particularly cohesive and certainly not at all like a modern "5 paragraph" essay.
                  Debbie,
                  I am going to disagree with you a bit here. The 8 paragraphs they learn in Chreia/Maxim provide them with eight different versions of support for their thesis. And it includes guidance for including transitions between the paragraphs. All it takes to turn that into a 5 paragraph essay is to use three of them as the body paragraphs. Most kids who are trained to write 5 paragraph essays are simply told to come up with three topics of support, a progression of three steps, or three increasingly strong arguments. These guys learn a lot more than that, which make for much more powerful arguments than simply three related ideas.

                  And I just got to teach my high school junior the first lesson of Common Topic this morning - and lo and behold, lots more talk about all the various "heads." These lessons just get more and more layers added to them. It's incredible!

                  AMDG,
                  Sarah
                  2020-2021
                  16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
                  DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
                  DS, 16
                  DD, 14
                  DD, 12
                  DD, 10
                  DD, 8
                  DD, 6
                  +DS+
                  DS, 2

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Classical Composition-Narrative

                    Sarah, you summed up what I meant. Once they learn to write arguments, it's easy to transfer that to the modern 5 paragraph essay. But I hold my point that Chreia/Maxim paragraphs are not what make up a typical modern 5 paragraph essay. It's simply a different writing form. Picking three supporting arguements and developing them is not the same as forming the 8 heads. And actually the Form of a 5 paragraph essay does not usually allow for the strength of developing your point like the Forms in Classical Composition do. If you simply tried to grab 3 of the 8 heads and put them into an ACT essay you would probably get a low score. This is more a critique of the modern forms of writing than the classical Forms. I honestly feel that transitioning to modern Forms is really easy after going through CC.
                    My son (not the public school one) only got through Confirmation/Refutation before hitting high school. He has to write a ton of 5 paragraph essays for Kolbe. I tried to keep with with CC doing Common Topic but it was too much and I chose my battles and dropped CC. But even just having gone through C/R (that's level 4 I think), his skills were pretty strong and he easily adapted to the modern format. My point was to not stress over a 6th grader not being able to write 5 paragraph essays. It's more important to build the classical skills now. The modern formats are easily picked up later.
                    Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
                    DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
                    DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
                    DS, 21, chemistry major
                    DS, 18, Physics major
                    DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
                    DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
                    DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X