R&S English vs EGR

[home4good]

I can't make up my mind! We are new to MP and my daughters will be in 4th and 6th grade this coming school year. I LOVE R&S ENGLISH. I do, I really, really do. So do my kids. But I hear you all saying it is unnecessary extra work when Latin is part of your curriculum. So to ease the work load next year, I went ahead and got EGR 1 for both my girls to do with LC 1. But when make decisions, I tend to beat a dead horse and analyze things from every angle. (I might be a little OCD ) So I would love to hear from those of you who do latin and R&S English and what you like about it and what works for your family. And I would love to hear from those who do EGR and Latin. I have to make up my mind lol! My 6th grader is obsessed with English and a self professed grammar nerd, so I want to make sure she is happy! Thank you so much in advance!

Beth
DD - 11 Blend of 5/6 core to catch up for 7M
DD - 9 3A
Brand new to MP for 2017/18 Woohoo!!!!

[tanya]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,

If your kids love R&S English, I'd recommend that you continue using it. Just know that you don't need to do it all. We also loved R&S English, and we used it at HLS until we decided it took up too much time. When I was teaching, we did R&S English for an hour a day in addition to Latin every day, so that was a lot of unnecessary grammar. The need for English grammar for a Latin student is to help them make the connections between the languages. They need to understand that a direct object in English works the same as a direct object in Latin - it's just easier to locate in a Latin sentence. So you can continue with the grammar program you love, with that in mind. So maybe you would only do half the exercises or just do the oral exercises if your student appears to have a good grasp of the concept being taught. But there is no need to give up a program that you and your students enjoy together!

Tanya

[Angela]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

We tried EGR as well, but ended up sticking with R&S English. Not that I don't like EGR, I think it is a wonderful concept and works well with MP Latin. We simply prefer the detailed explanations in R&S and the amount of review and practice. It has never taken us very long at all. We go through the lessons together and work several examples orally. I only assign written work occasionally for either concepts that could use extra work or concepts that really need to be written out (diagramming for example).

I think that assigning R&S as totally independent work and expecting a student to complete all the exercises would certainly take up too much time from your day and be unnecessary when combined with Latin. But doing it the way we do it only takes 10-15 minutes unless there is something extra we choose to do.

I do like the worksheets as a quicker way to practice than the exercises in the book, and we do all the tests as well.

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,

If your kids love R&S English, I'd recommend that you continue using it. Just know that you don't need to do it all. We also loved R&S English, and we used it at HLS until we decided it took up too much time. When I was teaching, we did R&S English for an hour a day in addition to Latin every day, so that was a lot of unnecessary grammar. The need for English grammar for a Latin student is to help them make the connections between the languages. They need to understand that a direct object in English works the same as a direct object in Latin - it's just easier to locate in a Latin sentence. So you can continue with the grammar program you love, with that in mind. So maybe you would only do half the exercises or just do the oral exercises if your student appears to have a good grasp of the concept being taught. But there is no need to give up a program that you and your students enjoy together!

Tanya

Thank you so much Tanya! I appreciate your advice. Does it hurt their success if we are just starting Latina Christiana this year but they are halfway through English 3 and 5? What they are learning in English may not be reflecting what is currently being learned in latin. I could skip the rest of their books and move to 4 and 6 if need be. Thank you again for your input!

Beth

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

We tried EGR as well, but ended up sticking with R&S English. Not that I don't like EGR, I think it is a wonderful concept and works well with MP Latin. We simply prefer the detailed explanations in R&S and the amount of review and practice. It has never taken us very long at all. We go through the lessons together and work several examples orally. I only assign written work occasionally for either concepts that could use extra work or concepts that really need to be written out (diagramming for example).

I think that assigning R&S as totally independent work and expecting a student to complete all the exercises would certainly take up too much time from your day and be unnecessary when combined with Latin. But doing it the way we do it only takes 10-15 minutes unless there is something extra we choose to do.

I do like the worksheets as a quicker way to practice than the exercises in the book, and we do all the tests as well.

You and I think the same! Those reasons are why I love R&S so much. Did you find that it was confusing for your kids that they were learning things in Latin that may or may not have been covered concurrently in English?

Beth

[pickandgrin]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,
The speed at which grammar unfolds in Latin is going to be very slow compared to what is given you in an English Grammar. Plus, you have the benefit of speaking English fluently! We all use English even though we might not (usually do not) totally understand what is happening grammatically. Being ahead in English Grammar is no problem at all! Latin will come along, slow and steady, until everything gets covered in the four Forms years. My son starts 4th Form in August and he's elated to "finally know how to do the things they haven't told us yet!" (His words. He's eager to begin a sentence with "if," etc.) Latin streamlines it so much that you focus only on a few things you really, really understand the corollary in English. In First Form, we only covered subjects, direct objects, verbs, complimentary infinities, and predicate adjectives/nouns. That's not much, but it's a great start. I think your kids will be very pleased to see the two languages and have them to compare!

There's an excellent article in the Late Summer 2017 Classical Teacher by Charles E. Bennett that gives us the long view. I'm going to quote part of it I circled:

By the study of language is meant the study of one's own language, but the study of one's own language is achieved incomparably better by the indirect method of studying another language. Only so can the necessary processes of comparison be effectively instituted. Latin is of value because it confers a mastery over the resources of one's mother tongue. This mastery comes as the direct and necessary result of careful daily translation--a process involving one the one hand a careful consideration and analysis of the thought of the author read, and on the other a severe and laborious comparison of the value of alternative English words, phrases, and sentences, with the consequent attainment of skill in making the same effective as vehicles of expression.

This fruit comes from translation work after mastery of the grammar. What a treat that this is what our kids are in for!

[Angela]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

You and I think the same! Those reasons are why I love R&S so much. Did you find that it was confusing for your kids that they were learning things in Latin that may or may not have been covered concurrently in English?

Beth

Not that I have noticed, and I am very involved in the Latin lessons. I think EGR does line up better with the Latin topics (which makes sense since that is what it was designed for), but R&S eventually covers it all, too. We certainly haven't encountered any difficulties in Latin that I think are due to a lack of English grammar knowledge (at least not yet).

[hilaryblair]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

We love Rod and Staff Grammar as well. My rising 5th grader did great with EGR in 3rd grade but I felt like she needed some additional practice which we find plenty of with Rod and Staff. Now that I've seen both programs in action, here is my plan for this year. We are going to use EGR but compliment with Rod and Staff. When I feel my girls need extra practice to work on what is being presented in EGR, we will use our Rod and Staff materials to work through. I feel like it is going to be the best of both worlds!

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,
The speed at which grammar unfolds in Latin is going to be very slow compared to what is given you in an English Grammar. Plus, you have the benefit of speaking English fluently! We all use English even though we might not (usually do not) totally understand what is happening grammatically. Being ahead in English Grammar is no problem at all! Latin will come along, slow and steady, until everything gets covered in the four Forms years. My son starts 4th Form in August and he's elated to "finally know how to do the things they haven't told us yet!" (His words. He's eager to begin a sentence with "if," etc.) Latin streamlines it so much that you focus only on a few things you really, really understand the corollary in English. In First Form, we only covered subjects, direct objects, verbs, complimentary infinities, and predicate adjectives/nouns. That's not much, but it's a great start. I think your kids will be very pleased to see the two languages and have them to compare!

There's an excellent article in the Late Summer 2017 Classical Teacher by Charles E. Bennett that gives us the long view. I'm going to quote part of it I circled:

By the study of language is meant the study of one's own language, but the study of one's own language is achieved incomparably better by the indirect method of studying another language. Only so can the necessary processes of comparison be effectively instituted. Latin is of value because it confers a mastery over the resources of one's mother tongue. This mastery comes as the direct and necessary result of careful daily translation--a process involving one the one hand a careful consideration and analysis of the thought of the author read, and on the other a severe and laborious comparison of the value of alternative English words, phrases, and sentences, with the consequent attainment of skill in making the same effective as vehicles of expression.

This fruit comes from translation work after mastery of the grammar. What a treat that this is what our kids are in for!

Thank you so much for your advice!

Beth

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

We love Rod and Staff Grammar as well. My rising 5th grader did great with EGR in 3rd grade but I felt like she needed some additional practice which we find plenty of with Rod and Staff. Now that I've seen both programs in action, here is my plan for this year. We are going to use EGR but compliment with Rod and Staff. When I feel my girls need extra practice to work on what is being presented in EGR, we will use our Rod and Staff materials to work through. I feel like it is going to be the best of both worlds!

This sounds like a great idea! I have been going back and forth so much, that I was beginning to settle on this idea as well It is the best of both worlds! Thank you so much for your advice!

Beth

[hermione310]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Just wanted to note that MP has recently added Core Skills Language Arts books to the cores as a supplement to EGR. I believe the intent is to offer extra optional practice. My understanding is also (and I apologize for speaking for MP if I'm incorrect) that MP plans to update the lesson plans to include Core Skills practices where appropriate.

I'm mentioning this because I previously used EGR in conjunction with CLE Language Arts. I loved the way EGR dovetailed with our Latin lessons, but still felt DD needed additional practice. We eventually gave CLE up as it ate up too much time. I just purchased the Core Skills Language Arts book with grade 6 and am looking forward to seeing how we can use it as the weeks progress.

I realize Rod and Staff may still be the best choice for your family -- just thought I'd mention the new practice book if you haven't seen it.

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Just wanted to note that MP has recently added Core Skills Language Arts books to the cores as a supplement to EGR. I believe the intent is to offer extra optional practice. My understanding is also (and I apologize for speaking for MP if I'm incorrect) that MP plans to update the lesson plans to include Core Skills practices where appropriate.

I'm mentioning this because I previously used EGR in conjunction with CLE Language Arts. I loved the way EGR dovetailed with our Latin lessons, but still felt DD needed additional practice. We eventually gave CLE up as it ate up too much time. I just purchased the Core Skills Language Arts book with grade 6 and am looking forward to seeing how we can use it as the weeks progress.

I realize Rod and Staff may still be the best choice for your family -- just thought I'd mention the new practice book if you haven't seen it.

I appreciate your input! I had forgotten about the Core Skills books. This is our first year with MP and I was starting both my 4th and 6th grade daughters in Latina Christiana and EGR 1 so they correlate as they progress through the program. Could I still Get Core Skills 4 and Core Skills? Or would it be too far off from what they are learning?

Beth

[SaintJude7]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,
If you like R&S English, and it is a good fit for your kids, stick with it. It doesn't take a great deal of time, when you can judge what they already know. I used R&S English through grade six with some of my older kids, and then switched over to Lepanto Grammar with the younger ones. (It's very similar, but Catholic. I only assign the workbook pages.) You can probably skip the rest of levels 3 and 5, and just move up to 4 and 6. Rod and Staff English covers more than grammar, if I remember correctly. I always liked their poetry selections.
Blessings,
Jude

DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 8, DD 5

[home4good]

Re: R&S English vs EGR

Beth,
If you like R&S English, and it is a good fit for your kids, stick with it. It doesn't take a great deal of time, when you can judge what they already know. I used R&S English through grade six with some of my older kids, and then switched over to Lepanto Grammar with the younger ones. (It's very similar, but Catholic. I only assign the workbook pages.) You can probably skip the rest of levels 3 and 5, and just move up to 4 and 6. Rod and Staff English covers more than grammar, if I remember correctly. I always liked their poetry selections.
Blessings,
Jude

DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 8, DD 5

Thank you so much for your insight Jude. You experienced mamas calm my mind! I think what I have decided to do at this point is to keep both on hand. I'm going to try the program with EGR, since it was designed to work with the Latin courses. Then if I feel we need practice and are missing things, we can still reach for our beloved R&S.

Blessings,

Beth