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    FFL - Diagramming Sentences

    I was helping my 5th grader with diagramming sentences in FFL. We were both confused. First my disclosure: I am learning Latin very slowly and haphazardly. I have not had the time to devote that I would like to. He has far surpassed me. I rely heavily on the DVD, text, and answer key to help him.

    I pulled out my TM and couldn't really find instruction on how to teach diagrams. Did I overlook it? He is doing it in EGR2, but it feels much more difficult in FFL. We diagrammed the English translation first, then used that to help with the Latin. Is that the correct order or should we do the Latin first? In the back of the text I found helpful information, but it still felt like not enough. For example, verbs can be either transitive or intransitive. I may be showing my ignorance, but I have no idea what that means! I read the explanation, but struggled to teach it because I'm not certain I understand it myself.

    I think I've always hated diagramming sentences. It just feels cumbersome and unnecessarily complicated. I'm certain that plays into my difficulties. Does anyone have a trick to teaching this that they'd like to share?
    Joyfully, Courtney
    DS14, DS12, DS11, DD9

    #2
    Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences

    No worries! Can you share which lesson you are on? That will help.

    For transivtive/intransitive you can think of that as action versus linking/being.

    Transitive:
    Courtney loves Latin.
    "loves" is transitive because it is "throwing forward/transferring action" which is to be received by something, here "Latin"--the Direct Object because it received the object of the verb.
    Courtney loves.....what? Courtney loves LATIN. "Courtney loves" is a thought but it leaves you asking "What?"

    A football analogy: The quarterback throws the football to the wide receiver.
    Subject is "quarterback"
    transitive verb is "throws" --the action
    "football" is the direct object (receives the action--it is what is being thrown)
    ----> And "wide receiver" is the indirect object--but you might not be to that.

    Direct objects will be in the accusative case. See Sentence Pattern #2 as described on pg. 97 in your TM.

    Intransitive:
    Courtney is patient. (Example with a predicate adjective)
    "is" is intransitive because it is acting like an equals sign and does not "throw action forward."
    With intransitive verbs, they **cannot pass action to a verb and may anticipate that a descriptive word is on the way (either a predicate nominative--renaming the subject, or a predicate adjective--describing/modifying the subject).
    Courtney = patient. You could also say "Patient Courtney" to describe the subject.

    Courtney is a mom. (Example with a predicate nominative)
    Courtney = mom. Mom "renames" Courtney.

    Both predicate nominatives and adjectives are in the nominative case in Latin. See Sentence Patterns #3 & #4 on page 98 in your TM.

    For diagramming here's the difference: on your main line a transitive verb will be followed by that one straight line which stops on the main line, alerting you to a direct object following. On your intransitive the line following the verb is diagonally pointing back to the subject. You can think of it like an arrow shooting up to remind you the word that follows (whether adjective or noun) is modifying the subject, not standing on its own. Compare the lines on pages 97 and 98 as mentioned above.

    In my opinion, diagramming the Latin first is easier because there are fewer words (no articles) and it is easier to see what each of their jobs are based on their case.

    Does this help?

    ETA: **thankful to Michael for this helpful clarification!
    Last edited by pickandgrin; 01-18-2017, 01:57 PM.
    Festina lentē,
    Jessica P

    2020-2021
    11th year HSing · 9th year MP
    @ Home, HLN, & Latin online
    11th, 9th, 6th, 3rd

    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

    Comment


      #3
      Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences

      Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
      No worries! Can you share which lesson you are on? That will help.

      For transivtive/intransitive you can think of that as action versus linking/being.

      Transitive:
      Courtney loves Latin.
      "loves" is transitive because it is "throwing forward/transferring action" which is to be received by something, here "Latin"--the Direct Object because it received the object of the verb.
      Courtney loves.....what? Courtney loves LATIN. "Courtney loves" is a thought but it leaves you asking "What?"

      A football analogy: The quarterback throws the football to the wide receiver.
      Subject is "quarterback"
      transitive verb is "throws" --the action
      "football" is the direct object (receives the action--it is what is being thrown)
      ----> And "wide receiver" is the indirect object--but you might not be to that.

      Direct objects will be in the accusative case.

      Intransitive:
      Courtney is patient. (Example with a predicate adjective)
      "is" is intransitive because it is acting like an equals sign and does not "throw action forward."
      With intransitive verbs, they anticipate that a descriptive word is on the way (either a predicate nominative--renaming the subject, or a predicate adjective--describing/modifying the subject).
      Courtney = patient. You could also say "Patient Courtney" to describe the subject.

      Courtney is a mom. (Example with a predicate nominative)
      Courtney = mom. Mom "renames" Courtney.

      Both predicate nominatives and adjectives are in the nominative case in Latin.

      For diagramming here's the difference: on your main line a transitive verb will be followed by that one straight line which stops on the main line, alerting you to a direct object following. On your intransitive the line following the verb is diagonally pointing back to the subject. You can think of it like an arrow shooting up to remind you the word that follows (whether adjective or noun) is modifying the subject, not standing on its own.

      In my opinion, diagramming the Latin first is easier because there are fewer words and it is easier to see what each of their jobs is based on their case.

      Does this help?
      I just want to clarify that the technical definition of intransitive verb is that it cannot pass on any action to a direct object. An English example is "to rejoice." You can rejoice *over* a kind deed or rejoice *in* the Lord, but you cannot rejoice the gift or rejoice the Lord. If you diagram the simple sentence "I rejoice," you'll just have a subject and a verb, with no second line after the verb.

      If all of this is too complicated, don't worry about distinguishing transitive and in transitive! Focus on recognizing the verb and marking it with a "V."

      HTH and doesn't make things more confusing!
      Michael
      Memoria Press

      Comment


        #4
        Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences

        Ah, thank you for clarification! Like Courtney, I'm getting my Latin/Grammar one year at time with the kids. I like rules that include "cannot" or "always" so I'll be using this more! Thanks!

        --Heading up to edit my previous post to be more clear.
        Last edited by pickandgrin; 01-18-2017, 01:58 PM.
        Festina lentē,
        Jessica P

        2020-2021
        11th year HSing · 9th year MP
        @ Home, HLN, & Latin online
        11th, 9th, 6th, 3rd

        Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

        Comment


          #5
          Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences

          We were working on Lesson 11. I don't even see diagramming again until Lesson 17, but still wanted to get a better understanding.

          Jessica, your explanation is very helpful. Thank you. Action vs State of Being. I wanted to make it more complicated than that and as a result had a terrible time explaining it.

          Michael, Thanks for permission to focus only on labeling it as a verb! And for the rule, I too like rules without exceptions.

          When labeling, are the subject pronoun and subject personal ending the same? The first is used in English and the second in Latin. I guess what I'm wondering is, can a student use the SPE as a clue to look for the SP? Are there exceptions to that?
          Joyfully, Courtney
          DS14, DS12, DS11, DD9

          Comment


            #6
            Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences

            Originally posted by RunnerJoy View Post
            We were working on Lesson 11. I don't even see diagramming again until Lesson 17, but still wanted to get a better understanding.

            Jessica, your explanation is very helpful. Thank you. Action vs State of Being. I wanted to make it more complicated than that and as a result had a terrible time explaining it.

            Michael, Thanks for permission to focus only on labeling it as a verb! And for the rule, I too like rules without exceptions.

            When labeling, are the subject pronoun and subject personal ending the same? The first is used in English and the second in Latin. I guess what I'm wondering is, can a student use the SPE as a clue to look for the SP? Are there exceptions to that?
            The Subject Pronoun (SP) and Subject Personal Ending (SPE) express the same concept. Latin uses endings, while English uses a separate word. If you have an SPE without a separate subject word (e.g., just "Stat." instead of "Maria stat."), then yes, look for an SP.

            (Advanced note that you can feel free to ignore: Latin does have separate subject pronouns, but they are less common than in English and won't be introduced until Second Form.)
            Michael
            Memoria Press

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Michael View Post
              Re: FFL - Diagramming Sentences



              I just want to clarify that the technical definition of intransitive verb is that it cannot pass on any action to a direct object. An English example is "to rejoice." You can rejoice *over* a kind deed or rejoice *in* the Lord, but you cannot rejoice the gift or rejoice the Lord. If you diagram the simple sentence "I rejoice," you'll just have a subject and a verb, with no second line after the verb.

              If all of this is too complicated, don't worry about distinguishing transitive and in transitive! Focus on recognizing the verb and marking it with a "V."

              HTH and doesn't make things more confusing!
              Hello, I found this thread which is in line with a FFL question I have regarding grammar and diagramming sentences. We're at Lesson 7 and just met sentence pattern #2, which refers to complements, including complementary infinitives. I don't have a background in diagramming or the finer points of grammar and I'm wondering what are the bare bones of this part of the lesson that I can focus on with my children. I understand the concepts, but since I don't really have the information integrated in my own understanding yet, I am not a good communicator of it. I don't want to gloss over important information, but I don't want to get bogged down and thus bog down my family. Will this information keep coming up in the forms so that we will learn it more deeply each year?

              I hope my question makes sense.

              Monica

              Comment


                #8
                Monica,
                Have you read through the examples for diagramming in the appendix of the teacher manual or student book? They are very helpful. Some good news is that it stays very simple in the first few years of the Forms. If you are game, I would say this is a great time to work on understanding it better yourself by learning it along with your students. Does that sound like something that would be doable?
                Festina lentē,
                Jessica P

                2020-2021
                11th year HSing · 9th year MP
                @ Home, HLN, & Latin online
                11th, 9th, 6th, 3rd

                Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by KikaMarie View Post

                  Hello, I found this thread which is in line with a FFL question I have regarding grammar and diagramming sentences. We're at Lesson 7 and just met sentence pattern #2, which refers to complements, including complementary infinitives. I don't have a background in diagramming or the finer points of grammar and I'm wondering what are the bare bones of this part of the lesson that I can focus on with my children. I understand the concepts, but since I don't really have the information integrated in my own understanding yet, I am not a good communicator of it. I don't want to gloss over important information, but I don't want to get bogged down and thus bog down my family. Will this information keep coming up in the forms so that we will learn it more deeply each year?

                  I hope my question makes sense.

                  Monica
                  Good evening Monica,

                  I would say the "bare bones" as of Lesson 7 are understanding (1) that verbs are usually completed by a complement and (2) the infinitive can be used to complete a verb, the complementary infinitive being the formal name for this usage. Students will learn four complements in First Form Latin, but there will be much space in between each of them to allow students plenty of practice with one before adding another. English Grammar Recitation can provide further reinforcement of these concepts with its additional practice in the context of our language.

                  Definitely check out the resources Jessica mentioned, but don't stress over mastering every nuance right now. With time and practice, understanding will come.

                  HTH!
                  Michael
                  Memoria Press

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
                    Monica,
                    Have you read through the examples for diagramming in the appendix of the teacher manual or student book? They are very helpful. Some good news is that it stays very simple in the first few years of the Forms. If you are game, I would say this is a great time to work on understanding it better yourself by learning it along with your students. Does that sound like something that would be doable?
                    Thank you, Jessica. Yes, I am going through the samples and it is doable, I'm realizing that what I'm looking for is the "bare bones" that Michael describes above.
                    Michael This is what I was hoping for - the points of focus distilled for me. "(1) that verbs are usually completed by a complement and (2) the infinitive can be used to complete a verb, the complementary infinitive being the formal name for this usage." I know the information is all there in the text and DVD, but I don't always know how to word it so the main points are the focus when I work with the material with my children.

                    Many thanks to both of you!
                    Monica

                    Comment


                      #11
                      One thing I really love about Latin is that it often makes things much more "visible" than English. The complementary infinitive is one of those times! Whereas in English it's "to + verb" in Latin you only have the one infinitive word, natare or ambulare, for example. I think that's so much easier to understand!

                      Amo natare is way simpler for me to see verb/complementary infinitive than I love to swim does.

                      Glad Michael's answer was helpful for you!
                      Festina lentē,
                      Jessica P

                      2020-2021
                      11th year HSing · 9th year MP
                      @ Home, HLN, & Latin online
                      11th, 9th, 6th, 3rd

                      Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

                      Comment

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