4th Grade for New Users

[Girlnumber20]

Hello,

I am using 4th Grade for new users with my son, and we are almost done week 7. It has been a very difficult transition for him, but I must say, he is doing himself proud.

I am just now wondering, as I am a little slow on the uptake... is the 4th Grade for New Users package the same as 3 Accelerated, or is it 4 Moderated, or is it 4 Accelerated?

I wanted to do 4M with him, and I think I may have ordered the wrong thing. The different paths do confuse me.
Thank you-

Maria

[JodiSue]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

I am sure someone with more expertise will be along to help you figure things out, but the 4th grade package (what used to be 4M) is really the second half of many of the subjects done in 3rd Grade (Greek Myths, Latina Christiana, Christian Studies, and a couple others). So if you had ordered the standard 4th grade package as a new user you would have been jumping into the middle of those particular subjects. The 4th for New Users is the same pacing as 3A. Clear as mud? lol. If you did want to go at half the pace you're doing now, you could use the 3rd Grade lesson plans.

But, just to clarify -- all of the "M" plans are considered the standard track now for homeschoolers, so when you look on the webpage, what used to be 3M is now just 3rd Grade, 4M is 4th Grade, etc.

I do know that if you call MP they are really great about helping with pacing and working out the appropriate level for your child. Hope this helps some and does not muddy the waters.

Best,
Jodi

[The Autumn Oak]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Hi Maria...

I will do my best to explain it and if I am wrong, someone will jump in...

You did not order the wrong thing...There isn't really a 4M that you can start with...Year 3 had many subjects broken into two parts; Latin, Classical Studies, Science, and Modern Studies (Geography)...If you already completed 3M, then you would buy 4M because it covers the second half of what was started in 3M, but adds in 4th grade Spelling, Math and Composition...The literature is the same in 4M and 4th for New Users...4th for New Users is different from 3A in that the Literature, Composition, Spelling, Math, and Cursive are different...

If you are just starting out with MP at the 4th grade level, you should buy 4th Grade for New Users...It covers what you will need to know to move on to the 5th grade level next year...

I hope that helps...Let me know if it was too confusing :-)

[Mom2mthj]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Hello,

I am using 4th Grade for new users with my son, and we are almost done week 7. It has been a very difficult transition for him, but I must say, he is doing himself proud.

I am just now wondering, as I am a little slow on the uptake... is the 4th Grade for New Users package the same as 3 Accelerated, or is it 4 Moderated, or is it 4 Accelerated?

I wanted to do 4M with him, and I think I may have ordered the wrong thing. The different paths do confuse me.
Thank you-

Maria

4th for new users would be the same pacing as 3A for Latin, grammar, astronomy, Greek myths and Christian studies. The difference is 4 for new users has Fable for composition instead of AFF, 4th grade spelling and math, the same literature as 4M instead of farmer boy, and I assume the fourth grade read aloud list. Your next core would be fifth grade as it appears online (aka 5M) so you get things like first form Latin. I guess the answer is none of the above ...

I second the recommendation to call with questions. They are so nice!

Dorinda

[Girlnumber20]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Thanks so much, all of you- your answers helped to clarify the paths, which aren't really paths anymore, it seems. I guess there wasn't much more I could do, unless I wanted to hold him back a year in everything but Math. 3M (or whatever it is) just seemed too easy. But this is too hard. I kind of wish I had just kept it easy for him, now, as he is finding the load quite heavy, but he is managing, so far. My panic button got pushed when I thought about it- because I'm also doing the 5th grade core with my older child, and honestly I can't imagine him being able to complete all the work my daughter is doing- next year. Especially First Form. He's a young 9. I guess there is no such thing as grade 5 moderated pace plans, though, from what I read here.

Maybe I should scale back, or maybe I should keep on plugging along and cross that bridge when I come to it... he is especially struggling with the long Classical Studies lessons at the end of the days. There is just not much left in him by that point, which makes me sad since those are the fun subjects. But We are having the best year we've ever had, in terms of progress and accomplishment, thanks to the awesome lesson plans- so I really can't complain just because I have a kid who seems to be kind of in-between!

Thanks,

Maria

[Mom2mthj]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Thanks so much, all of you- your answers helped to clarify the paths, which aren't really paths anymore, it seems. I guess there wasn't much more I could do, unless I wanted to hold him back a year in everything but Math. 3M (or whatever it is) just seemed too easy. But this is too hard. I kind of wish I had just kept it easy for him, now, as he is finding the load quite heavy, but he is managing, so far. My panic button got pushed when I thought about it- because I'm also doing the 5th grade core with my older child, and honestly I can't imagine him being able to complete all the work my daughter is doing- next year. Especially First Form. He's a young 9. I guess there is no such thing as grade 5 moderated pace plans, though, from what I read here.

Maybe I should scale back, or maybe I should keep on plugging along and cross that bridge when I come to it... he is especially struggling with the long Classical Studies lessons at the end of the days. There is just not much left in him by that point, which makes me sad since those are the fun subjects. But We are having the best year we've ever had, in terms of progress and accomplishment, thanks to the awesome lesson plans- so I really can't complain just because I have a kid who seems to be kind of in-between!

Thanks,

Maria

I think in many ways it is just a tough year. My 8 (9 in January) is going through 3A this year. I had tried 3M the first year it came out and didn't really care for it. I think some times if you move too slow the child loses some of the flow of the material and I really wanted to do Latina Christiana 1 in a year. We are doing Greek myths and Christian studies orally and are skipping the tests completely in those subjects. My feeling is that if he can do the drill questions in the back of the book and can tell me about the stories he has gleaned enough to move on. i use the time dedicated to review lessons and tests in the guide to keep up in some other subjects. It is only October so I figure what to do next year will be clearer by spring. Good luck!

Dorinda

[serendipitous journey]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Maria, I am glad that your child is proud of himself & sorry to hear that is feeling like too much! We are still transitioning my oldest son, and it is a worthy challenge.

Dorinda's ideas above may be helpful: doing some work out loud. In my experience, if you pick one of what I think of as "MP subjects" -- literature, classical studies, Christian studies, modern/geography, nature/science -- and have the child work up to doing the full workbook in that subject, you can do the others orally, certainly for the first while, even the first year. Or have him do just one of the comp. questions in each subject written, the rest oral; and give as much help as he needs in finding and framing his answers. Whatever works to keep it manageable.

We also find it helpful to do memory work for many subjects each day: I go over either the comprehension questions covered so far, or pull questions from the list in the backs of the books, or if you have the flashcards just review the ones on the material you've covered. This may or may not suit your situation.

RE keeping Classical Studies fun, would it be possible to do the reading over a couple of lunches during the week? Then just drill the questions/flashcards later, and call it good. If he knows the stories & has the memory work down he will have what he needs as he moves forward.

And/or: some people lighten the load by picking one subject to set aside during the school year and do that one in the summer (others can't stand the idea!).

Finally: I think that if you can do the work in his skills subjects, and focus on teaching the content of the "MP Subjects" -- the afternoon subjects, usually -- the child will be well prepared to go forward.

PS: you can reinforce states & capitals with the help of US puzzles, "Stack the States" app, &c if that works for y'all. US placemats. Whatever works!

PPS: you could also let him know that it really is a hard year, and a lot of work! Let him know that the usual 4th grade track only has 1/2 of those subjects! He is doing a lot of great work!

PPS: FWIW, you are on an Official Path: the moderated path, for children beginning in grade 4. This path leads very naturally and gracefully on to 5M, then to 6M, and so on.

[Jen (formerly) in Japan]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Maria,

Not much to add to the good advice you've received so far. I just wanted to commiserate with you. My 4th grader turned 9 just last week. I tried 3M (half pace) with him last year, but needed to drop back into some of the 2nd grade skills for review, such that this year, instead of going on with 4M (the "other half" of 3M), I went ahead and bought 4 Newcomer so we could just get 'er done. He has the benefit of reviewing some of the subjects we DID cover last year, but that is really only 2, 3 max. He is finally really ready to cover a lesson a week in most subjects.

Some of the adaptations:

1. Look at the tests and quizzes of the "afternoon subjects" (Classical, Christian, etc) and focus your weekly energies on THOSE ideas. In public school, they call this "teaching to the test". But, I prefer to think of it as "these are the most important ideas from each lesson". I agree with you that Christian studies is HUGE for my son. He definitely stops processing after a point. So, what I have done is to break that one subject into parts and actually pull the books out most days for review and reinforcement. I don't make him write out everything, either, since the tests/quizzes are really more matching, maps, identification, etc (selected response versus constructed response).

2. Latin: you *could* decide to slow that down for better retention and so that he is not starting First Form at the beginning of next year. I believe that MP sells LC I lesson plans split into two years' worth of study. That would ease some of the morning work load and slow your child down before hitting FF. Of course, that will mess up your nice core plan book, ha, ha.


Not sure that helped, but I sure did want to encourage you. The 4 Newcomer was definitely the path you needed to enter the flow with a 4th grader. It is "about" 3A (the old, original fast-paced 3rd grade, no slowing or splitting any of the subjects), but with the 4th grade literature and composition choices. The next set you will order for that child *will* be 5M: the set you currently own. However, you can also chose to adapt to your young 4th grader's needs, no matter what the front of the lesson plan book says.


<smile>


Jen

[KF2000]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Maria,
It does sound like your son is well-placed for his age, but that the new expectations are heavy for him at the moment. A couple things to keep in mind are:

1). There is a transition period coming in to MP that we have all experienced. The skills a child of fourth grade is expected to handle are begun in Kindergarten! Children who come up through the primary years of MP are a bit more used to how things go, and what is expected. Our kids who have to jump in midstream definitely have an adjustment period, which takes time. There are a lot of things that become faster simply by having their skills be up to par with the expectations. So you have to allow those skills to catch up, while not overwhelming your son in the process. The suggestions others have offered are all great - do some things orally, cut down how many questions get written out, save a subject for summer, etc.

2). The beginning of the grammar years of school is a hard transition for everybody - even those ones who have been used to MP. Children do not experience this same difficulty every year thereafter. Putting the time in to learn routines and habits of handling the expectations well will pay off with a student who barely blinks an eye at next year's work when the time comes. You can adjust the workload to suit him better for now, and gradually increase those expectations as you go through the rest of this year to be in good shape for the following year.

3). Your fourth grader will have a different experience doing fifth grade than your fifth grader is having. Having a whole year of MP experience under his belt is going to make him more familiar with everything, especially Latin.

4). Don't count him out on the Latin. My kids have always surprised me with how well they learn their Latin lessons. I have tried to be learning along with them, and whenever I see a new lesson, I cringe and want to run in fear because it looks so intimidating. I think I will never learn it. But then I try. And I do my workbook. And I study it every day. And I review like crazy because I am old. . But I do get it, and it really is not as hard as it seems. Now, remove all those expectations of failure that your children do not have, make sure they do their drills, recitations and loads of practice, and you are golden. Plus, taking a child through First Form the first time is hard because it is new for YOU. By next year, you will open that book and realize there are no surprises. Your confidence will go a long way toward your son's success with it.

5). I doubt (and do not want to know) if anyone actually follows all the plans and guides to a "T." Make it work for you, not against you. I have had to tailor our methods and expectations to the fact I have six school-age children and a toddler who thinks she is. We do things vastly differently than a family with all boys, or a family with a farm to run, or a family whose oldest is 11, and on and on. I used the guides as my helping hand until I understood the point of what we were doing. As I did, I gained confidence of how to help my kids actually learn. Once you develop that, you will not need so much handholding, and neither will your children. Just hang in there and give it time.

AMDG,
Sarah

[jenniferjb]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Maria,

Not much to add to the good advice you've received so far. I just wanted to commiserate with you. My 4th grader turned 9 just last week. I tried 3M (half pace) with him last year, but needed to drop back into some of the 2nd grade skills for review, such that this year, instead of going on with 4M (the "other half" of 3M), I went ahead and bought 4 Newcomer so we could just get 'er done. He has the benefit of reviewing some of the subjects we DID cover last year, but that is really only 2, 3 max. He is finally really ready to cover a lesson a week in most subjects.

Some of the adaptations:

1. Look at the tests and quizzes of the "afternoon subjects" (Classical, Christian, etc) and focus your weekly energies on THOSE ideas. In public school, they call this "teaching to the test". But, I prefer to think of it as "these are the most important ideas from each lesson". I agree with you that Christian studies is HUGE for my son. He definitely stops processing after a point. So, what I have done is to break that one subject into parts and actually pull the books out most days for review and reinforcement. I don't make him write out everything, either, since the tests/quizzes are really more matching, maps, identification, etc (selected response versus constructed response).

2. Latin: you *could* decide to slow that down for better retention and so that he is not starting First Form at the beginning of next year. I believe that MP sells LC I lesson plans split into two years' worth of study. That would ease some of the morning work load and slow your child down before hitting FF. Of course, that will mess up your nice core plan book, ha, ha.


Not sure that helped, but I sure did want to encourage you. The 4 Newcomer was definitely the path you needed to enter the flow with a 4th grader. It is "about" 3A (the old, original fast-paced 3rd grade, no slowing or splitting any of the subjects), but with the 4th grade literature and composition choices. The next set you will order for that child *will* be 5M: the set you currently own. However, you can also chose to adapt to your young 4th grader's needs, no matter what the front of the lesson plan book says.


<smile>


Jen

I was going to suggest getting the moderated plans for LC as well. There is no harm in waiting until 6th grade to start FF. My son is also in 4th this year (having only used MP Lit last year), and we started with Prima because I didn't think he was ready for LC and I was sure he wasn't going to be ready for FF in 5th. He was also pretty sure that he didn't want to learn Latin, so I thought it best to keep it simple his first year.

Another idea to lighten the load is to use the moderated plans for Christian Studies. If you cover CS I in 4th/5th, CS II in 6th, CS III in 7th, you could skip CS IV, and go straight to The Book of the Ancient World in 8th. I'm not suggesting that CS IV isn't worthwhile, but it is a review of CS I-III, so just a possibility to consider.

One additional thing I did to lighten my son's load in 4th was to put off Classical Composition until 5th grade. I have noticed that my daughter (who started in 4th) is usually among the youngest in her CC classes with MPOA. I have also learned that starting Fable in 4th, the MPOA progression through CC ends with HS Comp III in 9th grade. My son is very writing averse, so even if he starts in 5th he will still finish by 10th.

[Girlnumber20]

Re: 4th Grade for New Users

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions and help- wow, you ladies are amazing! I continue to be humbled by how much help all of you are willing to give in the midst of so much of your own work to do. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

My takeaway, is that I am going to do what Jen suggested and "teach to the tests" for the afternoon subjects. Our situation seems similar- I had my son in grade 2 last year, but when this year came, the 3rd grade just didn't look quite right, so I decided to, as you so aptly say, "get 'er done." It really seemed like best option. We already are doing much of our work orally, but looking ahead to the tests seems like a great way to consolidate the most important information. love it. Unfortunately, I can't scale back on Latin, since I organize a group of kids taking LCI and First Form. 4th grader is part of that group and should really keep up, for his own confidence, I think.

Sarah, I am finding that my struggle is with obedience, and my children, of course, have the same struggle. We are finding a quiet joy in being obedient to the curriculum guide, to the best of our abilities. It's teaching us how to order our times better, like a training session in time management, besides organizing our lessons. This also means we have to alter/simplify a lot of things for him, but it is good to hear that with experience, you can let go a little more. For now, we are learning this piece: do what someone else (in this case, whomever wrote the guide) says you should do, to the best of our ability. Peace and blessed relief, once we stop straining at the bit- my boy especially has a ways to go with that one.
I worry about all the writing for First Form, more than the content itself. (It's funny you are going through the workbook for Latin. I ordered a FF book for myself and am trying to keep up with my daughter, too!) Hopefully my boy's writing will improve as we work through the copybook (slowly)

Jenniferjb, great to know that even if we slow up on comp we won't be too far behind for him to finish- thanks for that!

Gosh this is getting long- I am so sorry I don't have the time to answer each one of you individually, but please know that your responses are read carefully and very much appreciated by this newbie! As we are really starting to get into the Memoria groove, your help is indispensible. Thank you fellow mamas!


Maria