Mp & cc??

[adr1anraye]

I have a rising 3rd grader, 1st grader and 4K and I LOVE the complete MP material. This will be our third year using it, and I don't want to give any of it up. However, I have some friends who are doing a Co-Op using CC material (not an actual CC group) and I'm interested in joining them mostly for the social aspect. Any thoughts on the actual material from CC? Compare/contrast to MP. I'm wary of it, but I don't know why. Mostly because it's not MP. Also wondering if it is too much to try to do both. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I wish there was an MP group in my area...or just any MPers!!! I'm in coastal SC.

Blessings,
Adrian

[jsadowski]

Re: Mp & cc??

Hi Adrian....I am in Upstate South Carolina...Greenville to be exact! I wish we were close cuz then we could get a MP Cottage School going! ;-) I am in a similar dilemma. I have 9,7 and 6 year old boys. We have been doing CC for the last three years. I am starting to panic this summer because we will be starting their Essentials program with my oldest, as well as Foundations for the younger ones. I really like their curriculum. The math is great, History sentences are fun, timeline is awesome, english grammar is great, etc. I do not care for their lack of Latin which was what originally led me to MP.

I also really like their community and don't want to give that up for my kids. It is fun to have a yearbook, field trips, Christmas programs, etc. However, I hate not being ALL in to either CC or MP. I am starting to realize that I cannot do both but not sure how or when to phase out of CC. I want a group for my kids as they get older to be able to do MP materials with but not sure how to go about doing that. I see SO many families in our area who either do CC or some larger co-op group with contracted teachers.

Curious what others thoughts are?

[KF2000]

Re: Mp & cc??

I have no personal experience with CC, but I have spoken to a lot of folks over the years who do use it. The comments that you both have made hold true for nearly every person I have asked about it. They love the community, and all the "extras" that come with it, but are not happy with it for their entire curriculum. Inevitably it comes down to a choice - to continue with CC while only adding on parts of MP, or to have to forgo CC in order to fully do MP at home.

I cannot say what is the right choice for your families...but you are both in the position where I see the dilemma happen the most...the oldest in the family is 3rd/4th grades, and you have a decision to make.

FWIW, I realized several years ago that it was more important as my entire family got older that we stayed at home and did school well. It was just too hard to take an entire day away from that if it wasn't going to be productive for their core curriculum. I have never regretted that decision. Even though we do not have a ton of interaction with others, it has been more rewarding for our homeschool overall. Even starting the cottage school was not about having a community, but rather, getting help for those classes I know folks (including me!) need help with, and giving them a chance to discuss with their peers in a classroom setting without it being extra work for all the moms. Hths!

AMDG,
Sarah

[pickandgrin]

Re: Mp & cc??

I have a rising 3rd grader, 1st grader and 4K and I LOVE the complete MP material. This will be our third year using it, and I don't want to give any of it up. However, I have some friends who are doing a Co-Op using CC material (not an actual CC group) and I'm interested in joining them mostly for the social aspect. Any thoughts on the actual material from CC? Compare/contrast to MP. I'm wary of it, but I don't know why. Mostly because it's not MP. Also wondering if it is too much to try to do both. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I wish there was an MP group in my area...or just any MPers!!! I'm in coastal SC.

Blessings,
Adrian

Caveat: I am thankful for CC and their good work to elevate education and discipleship for both parents and children. I have some philosophical differences with them about the Classical ed aspect. But I cheer them on. We are on the same team!

Some questions for you:
-Does you family have good non-school community (church, family, friends)? Could that be enough, or become enough?
-Could you join your friends doing the co-op for a social part of their day but not the academic part?
-My biggest parting of ways with CC is their emphasis on English Grammar before seventh grade then the switch to Latin Grammar/Henle 1 in seventh grade. That's just an interpretation of what it means to be classical, but I disagree. Since you aren't doing a formal group you'd have much more authority to mix things up. Official CC groups do not.
-a good rule of thumb for outside activities is this: does it bring life into your homeschool or steal it and make the rest of the week miserable?

I agree with Sarah's assessment, especially after standing in the MP booth talking with parents at homeschool conventions the last two years. There is no way to keep up with CC and full MP year after year (in my experience third grade is the beginning of the divide), so at some point you have to choose a path. If what you really need is community, are there other options for social things and play elsewhere?

In Nashville there's a group of homeschoolers of all stripes that get together every Friday after lunch at a community center to play and unwind. We do that almost every week. It's completely non-academic and works for us. The kids play dodgeball and I get to chat with friends. Keep thinking about non-traditional options that meet your family's needs...

Can't type anymore on the phone! Ouch!

HTH,

[jsadowski]

Re: Mp & cc??

Thank you Jessica for the private message and to Sarah for chiming in! I really appreciate your opinions and expertise! ;-)

[adr1anraye]

Re: Mp & cc??

Thank you for all the replies! I had a hunch about 3rd grade being a turning point, and its encouraging to hear you all say how important just focusing in on academics is for your families. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that puts that as a priority above "fun learning" around here. I wish there was a cottage school around here too!

jsadowski I know of a private school in Fort Mill that uses MP. It's called Providence Classical School Rock Hill. I know the lady that started it...she's amazing. I don't know if this would be an option for you, but I can highly recommend it. It's fashioned after Highlands.


pickandgrin I *think* I made it so you can private message me...please tell me if its still not working.


Thank you all!!
Adrian

[howiecram]

Re: Mp & cc??

I have no experience with CC. However, I was really feeling down about not doing anything with my kiddos at first. I still have no plans to join a co-op. Honestly, the people that we are connecting with the most are from our American Heritage Girls troop. I don't even know if you have girls, but the social time does not have to be during school hours and it does not have to be academic! Our area also has people set up field trips and outings and we try and go to some of those as it works with our schedule. It's nice because there is no commitment! :-)

We did do a homeschool gym/swim class and it was challenging going to that, but it did make us stay on task!

[katy]

Re: Mp & cc??

Caveat: I am thankful for CC and their good work to elevate education and discipleship for both parents and children. I have some philosophical differences with them about the Classical ed aspect. But I cheer them on. We are on the same team!

Some questions for you:
-Does you family have good non-school community (church, family, friends)? Could that be enough, or become enough?
-Could you join your friends doing the co-op for a social part of their day but not the academic part?
-My biggest parting of ways with CC is their emphasis on English Grammar before seventh grade then the switch to Latin Grammar/Henle 1 in seventh grade. That's just an interpretation of what it means to be classical, but I disagree. Since you aren't doing a formal group you'd have much more authority to mix things up. Official CC groups do not.
-a good rule of thumb for outside activities is this: does it bring life into your homeschool or steal it and make the rest of the week miserable?

I agree with Sarah's assessment, especially after standing in the MP booth talking with parents at homeschool conventions the last two years. There is no way to keep up with CC and full MP year after year (in my experience third grade is the beginning of the divide), so at some point you have to choose a path. If what you really need is community, are there other options for social things and play elsewhere?

In Nashville there's a group of homeschoolers of all stripes that get together every Friday after lunch at a community center to play and unwind. We do that almost every week. It's completely non-academic and works for us. The kids play dodgeball and I get to chat with friends. Keep thinking about non-traditional options that meet your family's needs...

Can't type anymore on the phone! Ouch!

HTH,

Jessica (or anyone else),

Could you elaborate more on the differences between CC's approach to Latin versus Memoria Press? I've been in a few conversations with moms trying to decide between Song School (I believe that's what's CC uses) and Prima/LC. Having not begun our Latin journey, I wish I could give a more informed answer than "I like Memoria Press."

[pickandgrin]

Why didn't you choose CC?

Jessica (or anyone else),

Could you elaborate more on the differences between CC's approach to Latin versus Memoria Press? I've been in a few conversations with moms trying to decide between Song School (I believe that's what's CC uses) and Prima/LC. Having not begun our Latin journey, I wish I could give a more informed answer than "I like Memoria Press."

Yes, our differences in Latin as the center are probably the most notable in the early years and that bears fruit through the older years. Let me start with this part--a new friend asked me simply, "Why didn't you choose CC?" Here is my reply from a Facebook message, popping it in here almost completely unedited. After reading this, I'll elaborate.

"Ok, riding in the car now ...here are a few of my reasons (though I am very thankful for their program and know it meets a huge need in the homeschooling community...Just not my cup of tea.)

1) I do not agree with their overemphasis of the three stages of learning (grammar, logic, rhetoric), based on the speech by Dorothy Sayers, discovered and published by Douglas Wilson in the early 90s that helped spark the classical education movement in the US. She offered the developmental model as a metaphor, among many other suggestions, for going back to the old ways of learning. I don't like CCs emphasis on this. Many that were "early" to the classical education model latched on to this aspect.

2) They put emphasis on English grammar in the grammar stage, not Latin. The name "grammar school" comes from the study of Latin and Greek grammar, not a native language. When you learn Latin grammar, you get English thrown in. When you learn English grammar you are still at square one with Latin. CC doesn't start Latin grammar until 7th grade (using only three pages total of Latin memorization before that) whereas MP starts it in Second Grade and the student can be 3/4 to completely finished with the Latin grammar by the end of seventh grade. CC goes outrageously deep with English grammar before seventh grade, much of which is very abstract, even for older students and adults. I find all that effort much better invested in Latin.

3) The parent is required to attend and if there are little siblings they go into childcare. I've always had little ones and never wanted them to have a day of childcare (just personal preference).

4) The local groups function as franchises (basically) and have no/little authority to change materials, schedule, etc. A CC group can't offer a MP Latin class as part of their academic day before seventh grade, for example.

5) I do not like the four year history cycle as the spine (like Susan Wise Bauer suggests in the Well-Trained Mind), or the huge amounts of memory work across a wide variety of subjects without the time to connect them well to deeper understandings. This is another outworking of their understanding of the grammar stage as being for gathering facts.

6) I do not like the amount of work required as the student gets older (fourth to sixth) in writing weekly papers. In families I know, this has been a huge chore. Undoubtedly, one that bears good fruit but in my opinion takes a disproportionate amount of time.

7) We could not get our Memoria Press weekly work done in the remaining four days.

8) I have lived in Nashville for two decades and do not need new connections. I need to stay home and get school done, ha!

9) While strong in the early years, CC didn't have many strong upper school groups and, in my experience, have a hard time finding tutors for eighth grade and up. In time those communities will grow, but the model is parent-led, so if no parents volunteer there is no class.

10) I found Memoria Press first, so I'm partial to their materials, style, understanding of classical education, and vision for it through high school. To do CC, I would have had to lay down huge pieces of MP curriculum and I am not willing to do that.

11) They delegate much to the parent during the week without specific guidance. Working for Memoria Press in the convention booth I sold loads of planned curriculum to CC families at a loss for how to organize their daily/weekly work, or handle mastery subjects like math and phonics/learning to read.

12) It costs money and I'm cheap.


Now! There are many good things about it...community, equipping parents, accountability for moms who need it, free summer training, etc. When some of those needs are huge in a family's life I tell them they need a CC community...go find one, and use MP at home. But if we are talking about education, I don't think you can surpass Memoria Press."

----------------------------------------

So that's the big picture and I think a lot of where I come from stems from #10. I judge everything else against MP. I am 100% all-in and openly admit major bias!

Keeping that in mind, here are my thoughts:

Latin: In CC, the K-6th grade focus for grammar is on English grammar, and there's an impressive amount of it. "Latin" is a total of three pages, memorized and reviewed up to twice per page (three-year cycle done twice) depending on how many years you are in the program. They have a year of noun endings, a year of verb endings, and a year on John 1:1-7 which is memorized in Latin. That is all under the category of memory work. There is not a Latin class, per se, just the discussion of the endings as they come up including the 5 cases and their general function in a sentence. That is great *and* I know you can get so much more done before 7th grade, so why wouldn't I want to do that? They launch into Henle 1 in 7th grade. Most of my kids will be "done" with Henle 1 by the end of their 7th grade year and on to their first year Henle 2 & Ceasar the following year (8th or 9th). They will not be backtracking into the beginnings of grammar precisely when the rest of their classes are hitting full steam ahead and getting very difficult. By getting the Latin Grammar done in the younger years, the high school years can be set free to work within Latin. Momgineer once also pointed out that there's something to be said for setting a pattern of hard work in Latin in the early years, rather than treating is as a side subject and then shifting, very rapidly, into a difficult, serious, and core study in the middle of Jr High.

I think this is a good place to differentiate between what classical education actually is and how being Latin-Centered can keep you well-centered. In Latin-Centered Curriculum and Climbing Parnassus the authors point out that you can have a lovely and generous liberal arts curriculum without being a classical curriculum. To paraphrase one of them, "You can't have a classical curriculum in any historically meaningful sense of the word without having the classical languages at the center--that is what makes something classical or not." I think CC gets around to this in the higher grades but would be well served to bring that emphasis down into the lower grades. Just my two cents there!

Now, if you have to have community and are in CC somewhere--what can you do? Use the MP Latin program as scheduled, starting with Prima in second. If your kids are older, try to get them through First Form before Challenge A begins and they dive into Henle 1. Through Second Form would be even better.

My experience with CC comes from dear, local friends who are using and enjoying their CC communities as well as the many questions I've asked at conventions and materials I've had a chance to pour over. I do not say any of this to belittle their work--I hope that's coming through in my words. I do want to differentiate between the two approaches though.

To directly answer your question, Katy, I would respond that MP focuses on Latin in the grammar stage (their lingo) rather than English and has a clear second grade to 12th grade path for Latin that takes you where you want to go--so, why would you use something else?

This is long--sorry--but it's a conversation I have very often so I've thought a lot about it. Hope this helps someone along their way!

[katy]

Re: Mp & cc??

Thank you for your response, Jessica. I do NOT hear you belittling CC. I think we can all agree that MP and CC have two different approaches and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss those differences. In our area classical education means Classical Conversations. When I say that we use a classical curriculum, it's assumed we're involved in CC. While I don't feel the need to defend our education choices to anyone, I do want to be able to better explain our choices. That being said, I'm grateful for this conversation.

[JodiSue]

Re: Mp & cc??

Jessica, I appreciate your bullet points above.

When people ask about CC I also always add that the age restrictions for the upper level groups are very strict (people have appealed all the way to corporate and been denied) and do not favor any kind of acceleration. I no longer remember all the names of their "levels" so hopefully this makes sense: A child cannot join the middle school group until he is a certain age, regardless of the level of material you are working with in your homeschool. I have a guy with a very early fall birthday who started K at 4 (turning 5 right after the school year started). He would not be able to move up with his same grade peers in CC. I am very well aware that his maturity level and current level or schoolwork might not sustain themselves into middle school, but I just couldn't join CC knowing I'd have no choice when the time came and all of his peers were moving on and he would be forced to do another year of the grammar program no matter what. I also homeschool because I don't need to work at a specific grade level, but rather I do what my children are capable of handling. And it seemed very strange to me that a homeschool co-op of all places would be so strict about age requirements. I do understand it on some level, but not academically speaking.

I should caveat that I'm not for accelerating because faster or being ahead is better, but I am for working to the level of the child's abilities and CC offered less flexibility on that than my local PS!

There were a myriad of other reasons why we didn't join, and my info is only current to about 2 years ago when I investigated, so they may have relaxed the age thing (but I was told they were being more strict because they had been too lax in the past, so), but I always highlight it because it is a big deal to me philosophically, if not practically.

And, I'm so thankful we didn't join (after agonizing about how great it would be for my kids, but all my reservations about the program) and then I found MP and thought, "Yes! This is what I've been looking for all along!".

[tanya]

Re: Mp & cc??

Thank you, Jessica, for that amazing explanation! I wanted to add my personal experience with CC parents and Latin. I have had CC parents at many homeschool conventions come to me upset that their 7th graders had such a bad Latin year and asking how to prevent that for their next children coming along. I recommend that they try to get through Second Form Latin before 7th grade, and then they will have half the Latin grammar under their belts and Henle will not be a shock. Even if you just get through First Form before the Henle class, it would be a huge help.

We sell a lot of Latin programs to CC families, along with other pieces of our curriculum that help them to flesh out their CC work. We have a good rapport with CC families and are happy to help them fill in their curriculum. But it would be very difficult to do a complete MP program alongside the complete CC program. Jessica is right that you really have to choose. If you choose CC, we will gladly help you choose the parts of the MP curriculum that would best supplement your CC work. But our core curriculum packages are complete and represent enough work by themselves. They don't need supplemental work, and it would be overwhelming to most students to try to do more academic work. That extra time would be better spent in music lessons or swim lessons or Cub Scouts - activities that take the student away from paper and pencils and into an active or creative pursuit.

Tanya

[adr1anraye]

Re: Mp & cc??

Y'all are awesome. Everything you all have said is extremely insightful and helpful. The explanation about differences in Latin approaches will help me explain it to my friends and family better. And you're right, Tanya...if I'm doing the full MP program, then they don't need additional academics, and their brains and bodies will appreciate some other options! Again, thank you all so much.

Adrian

[adr1anraye]

Re: Mp & cc??

Adrian, I don't think it's working, but the substance of what I was sending you I just copied into the previous post--so you have it now on the thread!

How do I do this btw?

[adr1anraye]

Re: Mp & cc??

Try "forum actions" (dark menu bar across top)
Drop down to "General settings"
Scroll down to "Private messaging" and enable, plus set up your preferences.

That help?

I don't see the Private messaging as an option under General Settings...