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    Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

    Another thread has me thinking about what subjects I should be offering my girls the most "scaffolding" V. what they self-learn. I am sure I read at some point what MP suggests for students at various grades/subjects. I am sure it isn't getting done "right" so in an attempt to finish the year strong and start better, wiser next year I thought I'd ask how you fabulous MP parents direct conduct subjects. I am constantly feeling guilt that my 5th grader gets ignored because my 3rd is so needy. Here's our breakdown:

    3M - Not sure why I need to type it out since almost everything comes with a painful amount of hand holding. Smart kid, young for her age/grade, she is just unmotivated for the most part. (I believe.) She also takes an outside art, robotics, and science class.

    RS Math - 50/50 Taught by me, she easily completes the Exercises on own for the most part, loves math
    Latin - Lesson via video with me sitting by her, 50/50 for WB, Puzzles, etc
    Spelling, Grammar, Handwriting - 95% on own after lesson is introduced
    Literature- A painful hand-holding chunk of every day
    IEW - 75% together. She loves to write but still wants me there.
    Christian Studies - 95% together
    Greek Myths - 95% together
    Mammals -95% together
    Geography - Pretty much on her own with lots of prodding
    American Studies - She read on own and I ask her questions, which she has no problem answering


    5th (A mash of levels as we started with MP mid-stream) She is highly motivated, bright but I just always feel she gets less attention than she deserves. In addition to this load she takes an art class, Robotics club, Teacher-led book club (they read 30 books last year), Outside Science class w/ labs... and dances 10+ hours /wk

    Math - Saxon (for years) 100% self-taught. I will admit to using the solutions manual for guidance myself few times.
    Latin - LC - Lesson via DVD together (my first year of Latin also) and then 95% self taught from there
    Spelling, Grammar I- 100% self paced. "What lesson are you on again?"
    Literature 4A - 95% self paced I know what book she is reading but maybe not the chapter. The Discussion questions *may* get done sometimes.
    Composition - Lots of hand holding, tears, plus DVDs for Fable/Narration; we've tabled this for the year
    Christian Studies I - Read/discuss together, complete lesson on own
    FMOR - Read/discuss together, complete lesson on own
    Insects - 100% self taught, check in for review
    Geography I- 100% self taught, check in for review
    American Studies 4A - "Did you read it? Great!"

    Comments, suggestions? Any thoughts and MP wisdom are appreciated.
    Natalie

    DD, age 13: CC 7M, with a few swaps
    DD, age 10: CC 5M
    Third year using full MP CC, Forth year homeschooling

    #2
    Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

    My 3M experience is very similar. I'm mostly following along, but here's what it looks like at our house.

    Literature, CS, GM, Mammals my son reads the selection alone. Then we work through the guides together.
    RS, I teach and assign problems. When he finishes he checks the answers against my TM. Before reworking any, he shows me what was missed and has to be able to tell me why he missed them. That seems confusing. For example, if he wrote the problem incorrectly or added a word problem where he should have subtracted. Then he corrects his mistakes and checks again.
    Spelling. Independent
    EGR, I help with recitation and memorizing. He asks for help with excercises as needed. I quiz.
    Composition. Teacher Led.
    Cursive, Independent with me watching closely for correct form.
    Latin, DVD led. I am behind both my boys in Latin. If they need help, we are all reaching for the TM.
    American Studies, Independent Reading
    States and Capitals, Independent. I quiz while they are studying in prep for a test.
    Joyfully, Courtney
    DS14, DS12, DS11, DD9

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

      Good Morning!

      We just finished up 3rd and 5th this year and my 3rd grader did need a lot more of my time than my 5th grader did. This was expected, as my 3rd grade guy is (obviously) younger and generally needs more guidance than his 5th grade sister. Homeschooling looks a little different in our house, though, because this past year was our first year of doing full MP cores. For that reason, both my 3rd and 5th kiddos were taking EGR, CS, Greek Myths, Composition and Astronomy together. Both of them really needed my input and guidance for Composition - this has proven to be difficult for both of them and they really needed me to guide their lessons. (It got easier as the year wore on, though!) While I'm sure they could have completed the other coursework independently, I enjoyed reading the bible stories and Greek Myths and leading the discussion and I also liked learning Astronomy and EGR along with them. Again, though, this was much easier for me because they were at the same level.

      As for math, both of my children did most of their lessons independently. I'd teach the lesson (most days, this went very quickly), then they'd complete the assigned problems. I typically assign just the odds for my son.

      My 5th grader completed all of her literature on her own. However, my 3rd grader really needed a lot of guidance and input. I expected this, as I think MP has set up the literature program in such a way that parents have more involvement in 2nd and 3rd grades, modeling good sentence structure and guiding discussion questions. At the beginning of the year, my 3rd grader needed me to write his answers on the board (assisting him with stylistic elements) so that he could copy them. We'd discuss the questions, he'd give the answers and I'd then put them on the board. By the end of the year, he'd read the chapter, begin answering the comprehension questions and would occasionally pop in and say, "Hey mom, does ______________ sound okay as an answer for number 3?"

      Now, for FMR, my 5th grader really benefited from me reading each week's passage aloud (as part of our daily read-aloud rotation - I'd just add this in on Mondays), then reading it again herself and answering the workbook questions.

      Of course, as I'm typing all of this, it's occurred to me that no matter what I do with my children, they are still my children. They are not yours. They have very different needs, strengths and weaknesses. What might help you out a bit more is to take a look at why some subjects are painful for your each child. Is s/he working at a level that's too difficult? Is it really a question of you not giving enough time or is it an issue of dealing with material s/he's not quite ready to tackle yet?

      With regard to composition, this was TOUGH for my kids. I ended up putting my 5th and 3rd together because my 5th grader just really wasn't ready for the level introduced in her grade. Perhaps in your situation, your older child could repeat Fable/Narrative along with your younger one next year? Who knows? It may be a relief to be able to go through it again anew next year instead of trying to forge ahead in a subject that's really tough. If you're teaching the material together, you'll know better where each child is with regard to grasping what's being taught and you can allow one to work independently while you're still sitting right there working with the other one. For some reason, I feel less guilty if I know my attention is being focused on one student but we're all working on the same subject. (That sounds plain nuts when I say it aloud!)

      The other thought I have for you is with regard to the Guilt Monster...does your 5th grader feel as though s/he's being shortchanged? Or is that something you're putting on yourself? Naturally, as our kids grow older, they become less dependent upon us for help. I have often felt as though I've ignored my oldest only to find out she's been happily moving along through her work with no need for my input. *clutches chest*

      Lastly, your children are involved in a lot of outside activities (or maybe I'm just a boring mom *LOL!*). If you feel your time is constantly monopolized by these things or if your children are feeling overwhelmed by this, you *may* want to look at what you can comfortably cut out. One of the moms at Sodalitas last year was so helpful in telling us that "Much, not more" is what we're striving for in our homeschools. I used to feel like we should never waste a moment of free time and we did horseback riding, ballet, book club, swim classes, video art lessons...and then I realized that, though they couldn't articulate it, my kids were overwhelmed. We scaled way back and we're much happier spending free time playing games, reading books and choosing specific days to just go have fun swimming or riding horses - not taking formal lessons.

      I sincerely hope some part of my rambling helps you out.
      Last edited by Mary; 06-06-2016, 09:15 AM.
      Mary

      DD15 - 9th core + CLRC Ancient Greek I & Latin IV + VideoText math
      DS12 - 7th core + Novare Earth Science + CLRC HS Latin I + VideoText math
      DD8 - SC level 2

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

        Originally posted by Natalie0411 View Post

        3M - Not sure why I need to type it out since almost everything comes with a painful amount of hand holding. Smart kid, young for her age/grade, she is just unmotivated for the most part. (I believe.) She also takes an outside art, robotics, and science class.
        I would second Mary's concern about the amount of outside activities, but I'm also wondering if maybe your 3rd grader just isn't truly ready for the level she's working at. What I mean is: even smart kids content and understanding-wise often need more practice getting what's in their heads out on paper or even out verbally. Maybe she just needs to do the work orally for awhile to build confidence and regain enthusiasm for it. Then gradually work up, one sentence at a time, to written work. Don't focus on "grade-level shoulds" -- just meet her where she is at and I think you'll both feel much better about your days!
        Jennifer
        Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

        2021-2022
        DS18: Almost done!
        DS17: MP, MPOA
        DS15: MP, MPOA
        DS12: Mix of SC 5/6 & SC 7/8
        DD11: Mix of 5M and SC7/8
        DD9: SC3
        DD6: MPK

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

          Natalie,
          I agree with the suggestions that you have received already about simply making sure that you are not overtaxing yourself, as well as checking that your children are well-placed with the curriculum. That being said, the transition to MP does take time, and can last over a couple of school years. That is okay. Consider what your third grader did this year as "where she was." As you go into fourth grade, seek to make progress. It does not have to be to reach some level that someone else's fourth grader has reached. Rather, just that she herself makes progress. That is what I try to do for each of my children, because they are all so different. No one does the exact same work in any course. But I know their strengths and weaknesses, and I tailor my expectations to them. Sort of like how my son and my daughter can play the exact same piano piece but make it sound really different from each other because of how they play it. Let her current state set the expectation you have of what progress you want, at each level.

          That being said, another thing I will comment on from your original post is that it sounds like you are concerned about the imbalance of attention you give to your third grader versus your fifth grader. So let me ask you, is this something that your children notice? Have either of them commented on it? Does your older child seem bothered by the amount of independence she has?

          Because as another poster brought up, sometimes we can be bothered by things that we think are a problem, even when our children do not see it that way. For example, my son has always been a struggle for school, from day one of first grade. When he got old enough to do his work independently, he took it and ran with it. I was concerned over this, and decided that we would have one course for which I was actively involved - to give him the "benefit" of my time and attention. It was a nightmare. We ended up buying the DVDs for that course halfway through the year and he returned to being a much happier camper. He did not like having to wait to do it with me, and he was much happier directing his own show.

          So I would really evaluate whether your fifth grader really wants or needs your increased involvement. Perhaps it is a blessing that she works so independently because then you do have the time that you need with your third grader. We have a goal in our house of getting toward more independent work...so if she is there already, it might not actually be a problem. The one caveat to that is to make sure that you still set aside time to do discussing with her. My olders get a "look through" of their work, to keep them accountable, but we still talk about discussion questions and anything else that seems interesting from the comprehension questions they have answered. They still need that component, even if you are not involved in the nitty gritty details of how they complete their written work.

          As for your younger one, it sounds like this is just a stage where you need to be. Check yourself, to make sure that you are not hand holding too much, but only you can really determine that by how well you know your child. If your child is really trying, but floundering, then your presence is good and helpful. But if your presence relieves her from trying, then it is no longer leading her anywhere. A parenting guru I used to read had a saying I have always thought was helpful in a variety of situations: "When a need is met, it goes away." If she truly needs you now, be there for her. When she is ready, she will be able to need you less and less.

          HTHS!
          AMDG,
          Sarah
          2020-2021
          16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
          DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
          DS, 17
          DD, 15
          DD, 13
          DD, 11
          DD, 9
          DD, 7
          +DS+
          DS, 2

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

            Natalie,

            Random thoughts to add to the mix!

            Hugs to you this morning! And, take a few deep breaths with us here, which it sounds like you are trying to do. Good for you! We thought about a permanent thread called Monday Hugs--Maybe we should really do it!

            Can you please comment on the age of your 3Mer? I see she is 8 in your signature, but when is that birthday? Did she start 3M as a 7-year old, or is she about to turn 9? That would be really helpful to know! We would expect a young 3Mer to need help (parent teaching or mom-at-elbow) for most things.

            On your older one, I'd suggest throttling back to simply Fable and not worrying about speeding through or combining Fable/Narrative into one year. My immediate reaction to your list is that she's getting a lot of you, but it's more in the form of you serving her to get to activities or experience things--driving here and there, etc. rather than the two of your working on something together. So maybe you are just short on one-on-one time. Perhaps consider swapping one thing (that takes your time but is for her) to something that you can do one-on-one and be with her. I would suggest picking one subject and going with her--Latin would be my top choice (especially if you're planning to learn along with her), Literature second. Just brainstorming. My oldest two do most of their work alone and like Mary said, there's a bit of maternal-wounded-heart over that (ha!). They don't need me as much. That is my goal, but it's still hard to witness when it happens. Also, that's not a good fit for every child. My oldest can totally handle that but my second needs more accountability. I can't just let it go for weeks without chatting about it or grading assessments. If that makes sense... That's very much a personality thing exacerbated by maturity level, which is constantly changing as they grow. Keeps me on my toes!

            (ETA: What "going with" my oldest in Latin means for me is that we watch the DVD together on Mondays, but then do the work separately all week. I do all the same work he does and I know what he's doing daily--what's easy, what's hard. We don't actually spend the time working together during the week, but there's a camaraderie there because we are both in the Latin trench together. We just finished Second Form--acutally I still have my final to complete, but almost there! Just wanted to add this!)


            Also, are you a year-rounder, or do you even take a summer break? If you do take summers off, bumping some courses into the summer might help--science options? Christian Studies? Geography?


            Sorry to blitz you with so many questions, but your family is unique!
            Last edited by pickandgrin; 06-06-2016, 12:19 PM.
            Festina lentē,
            Jessica P

            2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
            DS 12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
            DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
            DD 7th • HLN & Home
            DS 4th • HLN & Home
            Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

            Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

              Originally posted by OrthodoxHandmaiden View Post

              The other thought I have for you is with regard to the Guilt Monster...does your 5th grader feel as though s/he's being shortchanged? Or is that something you're putting on yourself? Naturally, as our kids grow older, they become less dependent upon us for help. I have often felt as though I've ignored my oldest only to find out she's been happily moving along through her work with no need for my input. *clutches chest*

              Lastly, your children are involved in a lot of outside activities (or maybe I'm just a boring mom *LOL!*). If you feel your time is constantly monopolized by these things or if your children are feeling overwhelmed by this, you *may* want to look at what you can comfortably cut out. One of the moms at Sodalitas last year was so helpful in telling us that "Much, not more" is what we're striving for in our homeschools. I used to feel like we should never waste a moment of free time and we did horseback riding, ballet, book club, swim classes, video art lessons...and then I realized that, though they couldn't articulate it, my kids were overwhelmed. We scaled way back and we're much happier spending free time playing games, reading books and choosing specific days to just go have fun swimming or riding horses - not taking formal lessons.

              I sincerely hope some part of my rambling helps you out.
              My 5th grader does come to me asking for more together learning. Often I push her needs off until I can get the younger to a subject she can work through independently.

              You are not a boring mom! We may teeter on crazy over here. The outside classes are a semi-coop (they call it a Resource Center) on Monday. They enjoy the classes, friend time, etc but it has been a constant discussion about whether to continue as it essentially "eats up"a whole day.
              Natalie

              DD, age 13: CC 7M, with a few swaps
              DD, age 10: CC 5M
              Third year using full MP CC, Forth year homeschooling

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

                Natalie,
                I've noticed that families with a full-day outside commitment (Classical Conversations, co-op, enrichment courses) start feeling the squeeze around 3rd or 4th. They often come to the forum with questions about how to streamline or how to have time to get it all in. Not to sway you one way or the other, but just to confirm that others have articulated the same. Four days and five days are very different schedules in a home school!
                Festina lentē,
                Jessica P

                2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                DS 12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                DD 7th • HLN & Home
                DS 4th • HLN & Home
                Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

                  Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
                  I would second Mary's concern about the amount of outside activities, but I'm also wondering if maybe your 3rd grader just isn't truly ready for the level she's working at. What I mean is: even smart kids content and understanding-wise often need more practice getting what's in their heads out on paper or even out verbally. Maybe she just needs to do the work orally for awhile to build confidence and regain enthusiasm for it. Then gradually work up, one sentence at a time, to written work. Don't focus on "grade-level shoulds" -- just meet her where she is at and I think you'll both feel much better about your days!
                  The funny thing is she soaks everything in, even her sister's work, and has no problem rattling off the answers (happily I might add) when her sister doesn't know them.

                  I am going to try this approach to written work. Perhaps I have sucked some of the fun in learning out and I need to make things lighter for her.
                  Natalie

                  DD, age 13: CC 7M, with a few swaps
                  DD, age 10: CC 5M
                  Third year using full MP CC, Forth year homeschooling

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

                    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                    Natalie,
                    I agree with the suggestions that you have received already about simply making sure that you are not overtaxing yourself, as well as checking that your children are well-placed with the curriculum. That being said, the transition to MP does take time, and can last over a couple of school years. That is okay. Consider what your third grader did this year as "where she was." As you go into fourth grade, seek to make progress. It does not have to be to reach some level that someone else's fourth grader has reached. Rather, just that she herself makes progress. That is what I try to do for each of my children, because they are all so different. No one does the exact same work in any course. But I know their strengths and weaknesses, and I tailor my expectations to them. Sort of like how my son and my daughter can play the exact same piano piece but make it sound really different from each other because of how they play it. Let her current state set the expectation you have of what progress you want, at each level.

                    That being said, another thing I will comment on from your original post is that it sounds like you are concerned about the imbalance of attention you give to your third grader versus your fifth grader. So let me ask you, is this something that your children notice? Have either of them commented on it? Does your older child seem bothered by the amount of independence she has?

                    Because as another poster brought up, sometimes we can be bothered by things that we think are a problem, even when our children do not see it that way. For example, my son has always been a struggle for school, from day one of first grade. When he got old enough to do his work independently, he took it and ran with it. I was concerned over this, and decided that we would have one course for which I was actively involved - to give him the "benefit" of my time and attention. It was a nightmare. We ended up buying the DVDs for that course halfway through the year and he returned to being a much happier camper. He did not like having to wait to do it with me, and he was much happier directing his own show.

                    So I would really evaluate whether your fifth grader really wants or needs your increased involvement. Perhaps it is a blessing that she works so independently because then you do have the time that you need with your third grader. We have a goal in our house of getting toward more independent work...so if she is there already, it might not actually be a problem. The one caveat to that is to make sure that you still set aside time to do discussing with her. My olders get a "look through" of their work, to keep them accountable, but we still talk about discussion questions and anything else that seems interesting from the comprehension questions they have answered. They still need that component, even if you are not involved in the nitty gritty details of how they complete their written work.

                    As for your younger one, it sounds like this is just a stage where you need to be. Check yourself, to make sure that you are not hand holding too much, but only you can really determine that by how well you know your child. If your child is really trying, but floundering, then your presence is good and helpful. But if your presence relieves her from trying, then it is no longer leading her anywhere. A parenting guru I used to read had a saying I have always thought was helpful in a variety of situations: "When a need is met, it goes away." If she truly needs you now, be there for her. When she is ready, she will be able to need you less and less.

                    HTHS!
                    AMDG,
                    Sarah
                    I do believe they are well placed and I am thrilled with their accomplishments this year. I only wish we had discovered MP years ago! I have truly enjoyed learning alongside my girls this year (FMOR, Latin, Christian Studies, Greek Myths!), but my older has vocalized a desire for more teacher time. In breaking down the self V. teacher taught subjects I am hoping to find subjects with my 3rd grader where we could develop more independent learning moving forward (even subtle strategies I hadn't thought of).
                    Natalie

                    DD, age 13: CC 7M, with a few swaps
                    DD, age 10: CC 5M
                    Third year using full MP CC, Forth year homeschooling

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

                      Originally posted by Natalie0411 View Post
                      In breaking down the self V. teacher taught subjects I am hoping to find subjects with my 3rd grader where we could develop more independent learning moving forward (even subtle strategies I hadn't thought of).
                      Also, remember you can delegate individual skills within a subject (looking up vocab for instance) while still doing part of it together. That can be a baby step to take.
                      Festina lentē,
                      Jessica P

                      2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                      DS 12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                      DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                      DD 7th • HLN & Home
                      DS 4th • HLN & Home
                      Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                      Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Self-taught V. Teacher-taught

                        Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
                        Natalie,

                        Random thoughts to add to the mix!

                        Hugs to you this morning! And, take a few deep breaths with us here, which it sounds like you are trying to do. Good for you! We thought about a permanent thread called Monday Hugs--Maybe we should really do it!

                        Can you please comment on the age of your 3Mer? I see she is 8 in your signature, but when is that birthday? Did she start 3M as a 7-year old, or is she about to turn 9? That would be really helpful to know! We would expect a young 3Mer to need help (parent teaching or mom-at-elbow) for most things.

                        On your older one, I'd suggest throttling back to simply Fable and not worrying about speeding through or combining Fable/Narrative into one year. My immediate reaction to your list is that she's getting a lot of you, but it's more in the form of you serving her to get to activities or experience things--driving here and there, etc. rather than the two of your working on something together. So maybe you are just short on one-on-one time. Perhaps consider swapping one thing (that takes your time but is for her) to something that you can do one-on-one and be with her. I would suggest picking one subject and going with her--Latin would be my top choice (especially if you're planning to learn along with her), Literature second. Just brainstorming. My oldest two do most of their work alone and like Mary said, there's a bit of maternal-wounded-heart over that (ha!). They don't need me as much. That is my goal, but it's still hard to witness when it happens. Also, that's not a good fit for every child. My oldest can totally handle that but my second needs more accountability. I can't just let it go for weeks without chatting about it or grading assessments. If that makes sense... That's very much a personality thing exacerbated by maturity level, which is constantly changing as they grow. Keeps me on my toes!

                        (ETA: What "going with" my oldest in Latin means for me is that we watch the DVD together on Mondays, but then do the work separately all week. I do all the same work he does and I know what he's doing daily--what's easy, what's hard. We don't actually spend the time working together during the week, but there's a camaraderie there because we are both in the Latin trench together. We just finished Second Form--acutally I still have my final to complete, but almost there! Just wanted to add this!)


                        Also, are you a year-rounder, or do you even take a summer break? If you do take summers off, bumping some courses into the summer might help--science options? Christian Studies? Geography?


                        Sorry to blitz you with so many questions, but your family is unique!
                        I think MONDAY HUGS is a great idea! Last night I had one of those moments as I looked back at my "weekend" and week to come. My poor husband has a very stressful job which often takes him away from us during our "normal" family time. And school is out for the rest of the neighborhood so the idea of children beating down my door to play all day nearly sent me over the edge!

                        My younger is 8, soon to be 9 next month. When we started she was newly 8. As the baby of the family she's always young to me!

                        I have considered going back to Fable next year for both. The issue that stops me is combining in past years wasn't always a good fit. I actually like them separated and they do also for the most part.

                        My older is very mature for her age but I have to admit I love that she does still want to be with me. I want to soak that up as long as possible! I like how you handle Latin "together-apart". I watch the DVD with her on Monday but for there, she works and I use the teach manual more often than not.

                        We are year-rounders, not by choice exactly, as we have a steady stream of visitors who impede our school routine. This year we took 9-10 weeks off. Moving forward it does make sense for us to continue as we have the option to travel with my husband abroad.
                        Natalie

                        DD, age 13: CC 7M, with a few swaps
                        DD, age 10: CC 5M
                        Third year using full MP CC, Forth year homeschooling

                        Comment

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