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Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

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    Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

    Quick question: In lesson 18 on 3rd Conjugation Perfect System, "victus" is listed for the 4th PP of both vivo and vinco. We checked Cassell's and it's the same, so we know it's not a typo. Can someone explain why these two different words share this same 4th PP?
    Thanks!
    Festina lentē,
    Jessica P

    2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
    DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
    DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
    DD 7th • HLN & Home
    DS 4th • HLN & Home
    Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

    Teaching TFL and co-directing @
    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

    #2
    Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

    Hi Jessica.

    The difference between the two is the vowel length or quantity. Victum from vivo has a long i and victum from vinco does not. It is not marked in Cassell’s because it assumes that you will infer it from the first principal part: vivo is marked with a long i, so the fourth principal part is assumed to have a long i as well. Vinco has a short i, so its fourth principal part is assumed to have a short i as well (N.B. if the vowel quantity changes between principal parts, it should be marked, like the long i is in vici). To the Romans, this would have been a perceptible difference.

    That is the technical explanation. Depending on which text you are reading, the editor may mark vowel quanities or he/she may not, so it is not completely helpful. Practically, most of the time, you can assume it is from vinco, because the passive of vivo is only used impersonally and somewhat rarely. The passive form of vinco is fairly common (e.g. vae victis “woe to the conquered”).

    Jacob
    Memoria Press

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

      Originally posted by Jacob View Post
      Hi Jessica.

      The difference between the two is the vowel length or quantity. Victum from vivo has a long i and victum from vinco does not. It is not marked in Cassell’s because it assumes that you will infer it from the first principal part: vivo is marked with a long i, so the fourth principal part is assumed to have a long i as well. Vinco has a short i, so its fourth principal part is assumed to have a short i as well (N.B. if the vowel quantity changes between principal parts, it should be marked, like the long i is in vici). To the Romans, this would have been a perceptible difference.

      That is the technical explanation. Depending on which text you are reading, the editor may mark vowel quanities or he/she may not, so it is not completely helpful. Practically, most of the time, you can assume it is from vinco, because the passive of vivo is only used impersonally and somewhat rarely. The passive form of vinco is fairly common (e.g. vae victis “woe to the conquered”).

      Jacob
      Memoria Press
      Introducing Jacob, our newest Latin/Greek expert!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

        Well thank you, Jacob, and welcome! That's a pretty strong first post if I do say so myself! It's so fantastic to have such knowledgable help one post away. This is why we are so devoted!
        Festina lentē,
        Jessica P

        2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
        DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
        DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
        DD 7th • HLN & Home
        DS 4th • HLN & Home
        Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

        Teaching TFL and co-directing @
        Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

          Glad to be of help!

          Jacob
          Memoria Press

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

            Hi Jessica,

            I just wanted to add that Cassell's dictionary generally does not use a macron with a vowel before two consonants or x (because that alone lets you know that the syllable is long for accent placement or scanning poetry). So they write the 4th part of vivo as victum without a macron. As I recall, they state in the introduction that their practice is to use macrons where it is especially helpful. E.g., for regō, regere, rēxi, rēctus, they give the forms rexi, rectus, with the e’s not marked long, as you don’t need that for accent placement or scanning. Most dictionaries will state their policy on this somewhere in the front matter.

            Bonnie

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

              Thanks, Bonnie, my friend! I look forward to understanding this helpful distinction you've made in a few years.
              Festina lentē,
              Jessica P

              2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
              DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
              DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
              DD 7th • HLN & Home
              DS 4th • HLN & Home
              Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

              Teaching TFL and co-directing @
              Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

              Comment


                #8
                Lesson 19: figo figere fixi _____?

                Now I have a lesson 19 question, so I'll just keep this thread going. All week we've been writing "figo figere fixi fictus," but I just checked our quizzes and saw it was actually "fixus" in the 4th PP. Somehow we totally overlooked that in the lesson. Can you confirm that is it "fixus," rather than "fictus?" I'm surprised we missed that exception earlier in the week but looking back there was no mention of it on the DVD or in the student book. Thanks for clarifying!
                Festina lentē,
                Jessica P

                2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                DD 7th • HLN & Home
                DS 4th • HLN & Home
                Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

                Teaching TFL and co-directing @
                Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

                  Hi Jessica,

                  Fixus is standard. From it comes the adjective fixed, firm, immovable. Derivatives are also a helpful way to remember the parts; fixus and its compounds yield prefix, suffix, affix, transfix, crucifix, etc.

                  Although fictus is actually an uncommon variant as a fourth part for figo, you will chiefly see it as the fourth principal part of the verb fingo, fingere, finxi, to feign, form, fashion, contrive, invent; it yields the derivative fiction.

                  Bonnie

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

                    Thanks, Bonnie! Yes, derivatives are very helpful to me as an adult learner of Latin since I'm often familiar with all the derivatives before learning the root. It's backwards, but it's helpful. I'm thankful my children are learning it in the correct order!
                    Festina lentē,
                    Jessica P

                    2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                    DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                    DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                    DD 7th • HLN & Home
                    DS 4th • HLN & Home
                    Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

                    Teaching TFL and co-directing @
                    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Second Form Lesson 18, vivo/vinco question

                      Like Bonnie said, "fixus" is standard and we meant to put that form. "Fictus" was a typo on our part. Sorry about that!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Just hit this problem this week. It is even nicer to have the question answered 4 years ago and a quick search helps us along.
                        DS11 - 6A + Math Mammoth 7
                        DS8 - 3M + Math Mammoth 3
                        DD4 - Jr. K

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