Dyslexia

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

This is my last post of my lunch break, and then I'm back to digging up information on renewing my teaching certificates in two states (oh fun.)

Another post on dyslexia has pushed me to finally start this here. I think my 3A son has mild dyslexia. He still reverses some letters in print. I'm pushing cursive now (THHANK YOU MP), and his cursive is beautiful. There really hasn't been any issues per se, because I've allowed him the time he needed to be a little bit of a late bloomer with spelling and writing. I also teach him AAS and have him listening to audio books galore; his impressive vocabulary helps with reading. The 3A IEW is working out beautifully for both of us and we enjoy it. This is his 2nd year in 3rd grade, because he has a late birthday and I decided to 'red shirt' him. All that to say, do you find that a classical education overcomes most of the issues with dyslexia? How do you deal with it in your homeschool or in HLS?

In addition to that question, I took two courses in Reading Ed. last summer and was extremely dismayed to find the professor say that dyslexia no longer means flipping letters around but having any trouble reading 'on grade level.' That is one huge can of worms for me. It seems such a common practice these days to change the definition of words to suit our practice rather than question our practice. It is also now suitable to throw everything under an umbrella, so nothing gets properly dissected. I was so annoyed I bought myself a magnet that says "If Life Gives You Melons You Are Probably Dyslexic" and placed it on my fridge.

[Anita]

Re: Dyslexia

LOLOLOLOLOL! Love the quote. Yes, you're right. I'm officially tagging Cheryl Swope on this one (if I yodel her name on a thread does she suddenly descend the slope with a ready answer?). Seriously, Cheryl can give you STELLAR advice on this one.

(*My* last post on lunch break before house-cleaning commences -- UGH)

[momgineer]

Re: Dyslexia

I will address your question about how a classical education works for dyslexics in a moment. First I want to address the view of what dyslexia is. I have to agree that dyslexia is not (nor has ever really been) about reversing letters. That would be more of dysgraphia. Reversing letters is one symptom of dyslexia. But dyslexia is not a situation where letters swim on a page and the kids mix them up. Dyslexia is so much more. Kids reverse letters when writing and mix up order when spelling because of how they process information. They struggle with directional ideas (the way a letter faces, the order of letters in a word, ideas like left and right or before and after or early and late) both orally and verbally. They might not hear that in the word "bat" the "b" comes first and the "t" last. They hear the sounds, but they mix them up. That makes it seem to non dyslexics that they are simply writing letters backward or seeing letters swim on a page. If you ask them to read each letter in a word in order they probably can- the letters don't actually move around on them. But when you ask them to sound out the word, they start to get the order of sounds mixed up and they might say "saw" for "was". To treat dyslexia you need to grasp what it is and what it is not. I agree that dyslexia is much more than "not reading on grade level". Again, not reading on grade level is a symptom not a cause. And not everyone who is not reading on grade level is dyslexic just like not everyone that reverses letters is dyslexic.

Now, on to the real question: "Do you feel that a classical education overcomes most of the issues with dyslexia?" A classical education does not "cure" dyslexia. Nor does a classical education alone give the dyslexic all the tools he needs to overcome his struggles. The teacher of a severe dyslexic will need to use strategies that are not part of a typical classical education. A more mild dyslexic might not need those strategies. A classical education teaches phonics. A dyslexic needs phonic instruction, but the fast pace of a typical classical education might be way too fast and assume mastery before mastery is achieved. A dyslexic might need more focused reading and spelling instruction. That said, I think a classical education such as MP is a great program to use for a dyslexic. Dyslexics thrive on routine, logic and repitition all of which are found in abundance with MP. For instance- my 12 year old mild dyslexic could never grasp grammar concepts. Just naming nouns and verbs was too hard. She knew the two concepts, but could never remember which word meant which. When we did a grammar workbook, she got all the questions right because she figured out the pattern for that lesson, but she could not repeat it later. But that all changed when she started Latin and EGR. With Latin, a student really needs to grasp the grammar to know how to translate the Latin. It is not good enough to just follow a pattern or memorize tricks. They have to really know it. And it isn't as important that they can name the parts of speech if they know how to use them. My 12 year old still mixes up the names of the parts of speech. If I ask her what is a noun, she will say, "Is that the person, place or thing, or is it the action word?" But she totally knows how to use them in Latin. She knows you decline nouns and conjugate verbs and she can do it well. She actually understands it. We also use EGR to reinforce that Latin grammar as English grammar and I can see her mind making the connections between what she grasped in Latin and what she needs to do in English. Also, consider literature. The books are read slowly. Many other programs have kids read chapters a day which is way too overwhelming for dyslexics. Then those other programs ask silly questions that make you wonder why you are wasting your time answering them. MP reads books at a much slower pace, but spends time asking good questions that make the students think beyond that basics of the story. I think this type of work appeals to dyslexics because that is the type of thinking they excel at. Add to that that they actually see the beauty in the books they are reading. So often with a struggling reader, we just want them to read so we get them silly books that look fun- rainbow fairies, baseball stories, books based on tv shows or movies. These books are usually very lame. When the child expends such energy (and dyslexics spend a lot of energy to read) only to be rewarded with a stupid story, they lose the love of reading. When they expend that energy reading beautiful books, they get rewarded with beauty not stupidity. They are encouraged to read more because they see what a good book can be.

There will be some things you need to adjust for a dyslexic. You might choose to read their history, Bible and science to them. YOu might choose to do those workbooks orally. That is ok. These programs are great for dyslexics because they visually show the important information, repeat important facts often, and don't stress about silly details that don't really matter.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Re: Dyslexia

I will address your question about how a classical education works for dyslexics in a moment. First I want to address the view of what dyslexia is. I have to agree that dyslexia is not (nor has ever really been) about reversing letters. That would be more of dysgraphia. Reversing letters is one symptom of dyslexia. But dyslexia is not a situation where letters swim on a page and the kids mix them up. Dyslexia is so much more. Kids reverse letters when writing and mix up order when spelling because of how they process information. They struggle with directional ideas (the way a letter faces, the order of letters in a word, ideas like left and right or before and after or early and late) both orally and verbally. Yes, yes! I've seen all that in this child.They might not hear that in the word "bat" the "b" comes first and the "t" last. They hear the sounds, but they mix them up. That makes it seem to non dyslexics that they are simply writing letters backward or seeing letters swim on a page. If you ask them to read each letter in a word in order they probably can- the letters don't actually move around on them. But when you ask them to sound out the word, they start to get the order of sounds mixed up and they might say "saw" for "was". To treat dyslexia you need to grasp what it is and what it is not. I agree that dyslexia is much more than "not reading on grade level". Again, not reading on grade level is a symptom not a cause. And not everyone who is not reading on grade level is dyslexic just like not everyone that reverses letters is dyslexic.Again, yes. You expounded on what I was trying to say in a much better way than I could have this morning. I was a bit soured from that class, because it began with the notion that there is not one right way to teaching reading and then proceeded to pounce all over direct instruction, which does have scientific studies to back up its success, in addition to anecdotal success. So I was frustrated from the beginning at what to listen to and what to tune out. I would have expected there to be more talk of how the brain processes in a dyslexic, but my takeaway was all reading struggles are lumped together.

Now, on to the real question: "Do you feel that a classical education overcomes most of the issues with dyslexia?" A classical education does not "cure" dyslexia. Nor does a classical education alone give the dyslexic all the tools he needs to overcome his struggles. The teacher of a severe dyslexic will need to use strategies that are not part of a typical classical education. A more mild dyslexic might not need those strategies. A classical education teaches phonics. A dyslexic needs phonic instruction, but the fast pace of a typical classical education might be way too fast and assume mastery before mastery is achieved. A dyslexic might need more focused reading and spelling instruction. That said, I think a classical education such as MP is a great program to use for a dyslexic. Dyslexics thrive on routine, logic and repitition all of which are found in abundance with MP. For instance- my 12 year old mild dyslexic could never grasp grammar concepts. Just naming nouns and verbs was too hard. She knew the two concepts, but could never remember which word meant which. When we did a grammar workbook, she got all the questions right because she figured out the pattern for that lesson, but she could not repeat it later. But that all changed when she started Latin and EGR. With Latin, a student really needs to grasp the grammar to know how to translate the Latin. It is not good enough to just follow a pattern or memorize tricks. They have to really know it. And it isn't as important that they can name the parts of speech if they know how to use them. My 12 year old still mixes up the names of the parts of speech. If I ask her what is a noun, she will say, "Is that the person, place or thing, or is it the action word?" But she totally knows how to use them in Latin. She knows you decline nouns and conjugate verbs and she can do it well. She actually understands it. We also use EGR to reinforce that Latin grammar as English grammar and I can see her mind making the connections between what she grasped in Latin and what she needs to do in English. Does she have trouble spelling in Latin? I moved to having him only fill out the LC1 book and dropped all quizzes and the extra work. I felt he was still forming his English spelling and shouldn't have the Latin spelling on top of it at the moment. Also, consider literature. The books are read slowly. Many other programs have kids read chapters a day which is way too overwhelming for dyslexics. Then those other programs ask silly questions that make you wonder why you are wasting your time answering them. MP reads books at a much slower pace, but spends time asking good questions that make the students think beyond that basics of the story. I think this type of work appeals to dyslexics because that is the type of thinking they excel at. Add to that that they actually see the beauty in the books they are reading. So often with a struggling reader, we just want them to read so we get them silly books that look fun- rainbow fairies, baseball stories, books based on tv shows or movies. These books are usually very lame. When the child expends such energy (and dyslexics spend a lot of energy to read) only to be rewarded with a stupid story, they lose the love of reading. When they expend that energy reading beautiful books, they get rewarded with beauty not stupidity. They are encouraged to read more because they see what a good book can be.He LOVES literature. MP lit. is working beautifully for him.

There will be some things you need to adjust for a dyslexic. You might choose to read their history, Bible and science to them. YOu might choose to do those workbooks orally. That is ok. These programs are great for dyslexics because they visually show the important information, repeat important facts often, and don't stress about silly details that don't really matter..

Thank you for all your thoughts

[Michelle T]

Re: Dyslexia

You are correct in that many students who need more time learning to read are labeled dyslexic. Many would progress with more individualized practice where phonetic deficiencies are taught and practiced. I am not saying everyone labeled dyslexic just needs more practice. They need a more individualized program that is phonetically strong. Memoria Press cannot come up with the individualized plan, but our products can be the tools used for this phonetic practice.

Yes! Memoria Press from kindergarten on is perfect for someone with dyslexia. Reading specialists will tell you a strong phonetic program is key - that is Memoria Press primary curriculum.

Reading aloud - sometimes reading with someone else - is another skill a dyslexic needs to help with reading. Our curriculum, if done as written in the manual, lends itself to this skill.

We love round robin reading! So a student is hearing the selection read out loud too.

We also read a selection more than once- repetition is needed for someone with dyslexia as well! Our reading is to be read twice orally and then once independently!

While someone with severe dyslexia will need focused practice with a specialist and maybe a year with individualized work. Our program will still fit perfectly with that practice. We have had students with dyslexia at HLS, our model school, who have received outside help for a time, yet continued to work successfully with our curriculum.

Blessings,
Michelle Tefertiller

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Re: Dyslexia

You are correct in that many students who need more time learning to read are labeled dyslexic. Many would progress with more individualized practice where phonetic deficiencies are taught and practiced. I am not saying everyone labeled dyslexic just needs more practice. They need a more individualized program that is phonetically strong. Memoria Press cannot come up with the individualized plan, but our products can be the tools used for this phonetic practice.

Yes! Memoria Press from kindergarten on is perfect for someone with dyslexia. Reading specialists will tell you a strong phonetic program is key - that is Memoria Press primary curriculum.

Reading aloud - sometimes reading with someone else - is another skill a dyslexic needs to help with reading. Our curriculum, if done as written in the manual, lends itself to this skill.

We love round robin reading! So a student is hearing the selection read out loud too.

We also read a selection more than once- repetition is needed for someone with dyslexia as well! Our reading is to be read twice orally and then once independently!

While someone with severe dyslexia will need focused practice with a specialist and maybe a year with individualized work. Our program will still fit perfectly with that practice. We have had students with dyslexia at HLS, our model school, who have received outside help for a time, yet continued to work successfully with our curriculum.

Blessings,
Michelle Tefertiller

Thank you for your thoughts. Since we came to MP after already using AAS, I still use that. I do plan on looking at the MP phonics for the toddler running around the house. I'm glad you point out the reading aloud. I need to do that more with him. In an effort to just manage the homeschool I think I've swung to relying to heavily on audio books. I agree that many children that simply need more time are lumped into reading labels. I saw this the last year I taught school. Your post also has me cemented on picking most of the 4M books for lit. next year, because he's already read a couple of them.

[Michelle T]

Re: Dyslexia

Reading aloud is beneficial in so many ways! Glad you have found the tools you need to help make your student successful!

[DiannaKennedy]

Re: Dyslexia

You are correct in that many students who need more time learning to read are labeled dyslexic. Many would progress with more individualized practice where phonetic deficiencies are taught and practiced. I am not saying everyone labeled dyslexic just needs more practice. They need a more individualized program that is phonetically strong. Memoria Press cannot come up with the individualized plan, but our products can be the tools used for this phonetic practice.

Yes! Memoria Press from kindergarten on is perfect for someone with dyslexia. Reading specialists will tell you a strong phonetic program is key - that is Memoria Press primary curriculum.

Reading aloud - sometimes reading with someone else - is another skill a dyslexic needs to help with reading. Our curriculum, if done as written in the manual, lends itself to this skill.

We love round robin reading! So a student is hearing the selection read out loud too.

We also read a selection more than once- repetition is needed for someone with dyslexia as well! Our reading is to be read twice orally and then once independently!

While someone with severe dyslexia will need focused practice with a specialist and maybe a year with individualized work. Our program will still fit perfectly with that practice. We have had students with dyslexia at HLS, our model school, who have received outside help for a time, yet continued to work successfully with our curriculum.

Blessings,
Michelle Tefertiller

Michelle,

What is round robin reading?

AND ..... since you're here -- what about issues with dictation? Meaning, I'm giving my boys words with blends (drop, crab, brick) and having them write them out. They can read them without difficulty, but oh, my word, writing them out was a disaster. They were all over the place. I'm not sure if that's a maturity level sort of thing, or something I need to be watching/evaluating.

[cherylswope]

Re: Dyslexia

This is my last post of my lunch break, and then I'm back to digging up information on renewing my teaching certificates in two states (oh fun.)

Another post on dyslexia has pushed me to finally start this here. I think my 3A son has mild dyslexia. He still reverses some letters in print. I'm pushing cursive now (THHANK YOU MP), and his cursive is beautiful. There really hasn't been any issues per se, because I've allowed him the time he needed to be a little bit of a late bloomer with spelling and writing. I also teach him AAS and have him listening to audio books galore; his impressive vocabulary helps with reading. The 3A IEW is working out beautifully for both of us and we enjoy it. This is his 2nd year in 3rd grade, because he has a late birthday and I decided to 'red shirt' him. All that to say, do you find that a classical education overcomes most of the issues with dyslexia? How do you deal with it in your homeschool or in HLS?

In addition to that question, I took two courses in Reading Ed. last summer and was extremely dismayed to find the professor say that dyslexia no longer means flipping letters around but having any trouble reading 'on grade level.' That is one huge can of worms for me. It seems such a common practice these days to change the definition of words to suit our practice rather than question our practice. It is also now suitable to throw everything under an umbrella, so nothing gets properly dissected. I was so annoyed I bought myself a magnet that says "If Life Gives You Melons You Are Probably Dyslexic" and placed it on my fridge.

Great question. Great answers. Tanya sent this to me, but you may not need more than you already received! If you have time and would ever like more reading on the topic, you might find something helpful in these similar threads:

http://forum.memoriapress.com/showth...light=dyslexia

http://forum.memoriapress.com/showth...light=dyslexia

http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13182-Son-has-Dyslexia

http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13580-New-to-homeschooling&highlight=dyslexia


You touch on several important issues in your question. Defining terms is needed! This is not only true with the term "dyslexia," but also with "classical education." Some parents believe their dyslexic children cannot benefit from a classical education, because they have defined classical education according to one prescribed pattern or rigorous program. I often hear this at conference booths after sessions. Mothers intuitively know that truth, goodness, and beauty offer much for their children. Yet the children would "fail" with a classical approach as they have previously conceptualized it. This has caused unnecessary confusion and discouragement for parents of children with learning challenges.

For an interesting discussion on classical education definitions and approaches, see http://forum.memoriapress.com/showth...ined-Mind-Book.


Your successes with your son's cursive, vocabulary, and writing reveal the flexibility we have when teaching! Congratulations.

If you ever want to join us over on the SC Forum, feel free to post. And if you ever feel your son has hit an impenetrable wall with regular MP, we have ample SC safety nets under development, so you need never abandon the beautiful literature and other elements you have come to love.

Thanks-
Cheryl


Simply Classical: A Beautiful Education for Any Child

[momgineer]

Re: Dyslexia

HappyHappyJoyJoy- you asked me about spelling and Latin. I do not worry about English spelling when doing Latin lessons, but I do worry about Latin spelling. YOu are in LC which is mostly about doing Latin to English. Whenever my daughter has to write the English translation, I am happy to spell English words for her. Most of the words are way beyond her level of spelling. We are doing All About Spelling level 6 right now so by now she has the skills to spell many English words, but she sure did not when we were doing LC a few years ago. I do stress spelling Latin correctly. Because Latin is so based on endings, she needs to be sure she is doing it correctly. Thankfully Latin is much, much easier to spell than English!!! I do sometimes help her with longer Latin words when she struggles with spelling the base word, but I require her to know how to spell all the endings.

Someone else asked about dictation. With kids like this, you should not dictate words they have not learned the skills to spell, but you should regularly dictate words they can spell after you have taught them how to spell those sounds. We use All About Spelling which is big on oral skills in addition to writing. Students learn both how to read sounds (look at the phonograph and say all the sounds it can make) and hear sounds (listen to the sound and write all the phonographs that can make that sound). Starting very early, they are given dictation phrases and then progress to dictation sentences. By level 3 they are writing 12 sentences each step (a step takes about a week) from dictation. I read the senentece out loud, they repeat it, then they write it. Every single word in the sentence is a word they can spell with the skills they have. They are never given a word in their dictation that they have not been taught how to spell. With my dyslexic, I skip all dictation assignments outside of spelling. We don't do dictation in EGR or literature or composition because the words are too advanced for her. We do copywork in place of dictation.

[cherylswope]

Re: Dyslexia

HappyHappyJoyJoy- you asked me about spelling and Latin. I do not worry about English spelling when doing Latin lessons, but I do worry about Latin spelling. YOu are in LC which is mostly about doing Latin to English. Whenever my daughter has to write the English translation, I am happy to spell English words for her. Most of the words are way beyond her level of spelling. We are doing All About Spelling level 6 right now so by now she has the skills to spell many English words, but she sure did not when we were doing LC a few years ago. I do stress spelling Latin correctly. Because Latin is so based on endings, she needs to be sure she is doing it correctly. Thankfully Latin is much, much easier to spell than English!!! I do sometimes help her with longer Latin words when she struggles with spelling the base word, but I require her to know how to spell all the endings.

Someone else asked about dictation. With kids like this, you should not dictate words they have not learned the skills to spell, but you should regularly dictate words they can spell after you have taught them how to spell those sounds. We use All About Spelling which is big on oral skills in addition to writing. Students learn both how to read sounds (look at the phonograph and say all the sounds it can make) and hear sounds (listen to the sound and write all the phonographs that can make that sound). Starting very early, they are given dictation phrases and then progress to dictation sentences. By level 3 they are writing 12 sentences each step (a step takes about a week) from dictation. I read the senentece out loud, they repeat it, then they write it. Every single word in the sentence is a word they can spell with the skills they have. They are never given a word in their dictation that they have not been taught how to spell. With my dyslexic, I skip all dictation assignments outside of spelling. We don't do dictation in EGR or literature or composition because the words are too advanced for her. We do copywork in place of dictation.

Momgineer,

This sounds so similar to the way we approached spelling, Latin, and dictation with my daughter!

In SC 2, we are using an Oral Spelling method, just for the reasons you describe above.


Will you be attending the MP Conference this summer?

Cheryl

[momgineer]

Re: Dyslexia

Cheryl, I would love to attend the conference, but I don't know if I can justify the cost. I'll have to see how the budget is. I will have three in college this fall. All have great scholarships but there are always tons of "unexpected" expenses right at back to school time.

[klwalukas]

Re: Dyslexia

Do any of you have experience with using different color overlays to help dyslexic students? My mom works with students in adult education classes, and one of the things that she does with them when she evaluates their reading skills is ask them to try different color overlays over the paper. On more than one occasion she has had a student start crying when the words stopped "swimming" before their eyes when she found the right color for them. It may not work for all situations, and I don't even know if it is something that only works for adults versus kids, but I wanted to throw it out there as something maybe worth trying.

[Anita]

Re: Dyslexia

Do any of you have experience with using different color overlays to help dyslexic students? My mom works with students in adult education classes, and one of the things that she does with them when she evaluates their reading skills is ask them to try different color overlays over the paper. On more than one occasion she has had a student start crying when the words stopped "swimming" before their eyes when she found the right color for them. It may not work for all situations, and I don't even know if it is something that only works for adults versus kids, but I wanted to throw it out there as something maybe worth trying.

I've never had to use it but I've heard it recommended as a therapy for sensory issues as well as dyslexia. I've also read recommendations for colored lenses for the same reasons.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Re: Dyslexia

HappyHappyJoyJoy- you asked me about spelling and Latin. I do not worry about English spelling when doing Latin lessons, but I do worry about Latin spelling. YOu are in LC which is mostly about doing Latin to English. Whenever my daughter has to write the English translation, I am happy to spell English words for her. Most of the words are way beyond her level of spelling. We are doing All About Spelling level 6 right now so by now she has the skills to spell many English words, but she sure did not when we were doing LC a few years ago. I do stress spelling Latin correctly. Because Latin is so based on endings, she needs to be sure she is doing it correctly. Thankfully Latin is much, much easier to spell than English!!! I do sometimes help her with longer Latin words when she struggles with spelling the base word, but I require her to know how to spell all the endings.

.

Thank you. This is helpful. I've dropped the LC quizzes and may have a soft start with LC this year followed by a firm year next year. Or maybe he'll still be fine to go into FFL without doing LC1 quizzes. My feeling was that with still grasping English spellings in AAS3 and Spelling Workout C, pushing memorizing Latin spelling was too much too soon for him. Everything else is going beautifully.