Placement Help

[HannahQ]

Hello! We are new to MP and I’d appreciate some insight into which material would be best to use with my children so they receive a rich and appropriate education, while also not taking on more than I can realistically manage. I have a rising 4th grader, 2nd grader with dyslexia, and Kindergartener.

For my oldest, I am considering the 4NU package with a few modifications.

• We have always used Math Mammoth and like it, so we’ll stick with it. We’ll be using All About Spelling because that has worked very well for her.
• Last year she used IEW Bible Heroes and it was an excellent experience that improved her confidence, competence, and independence in writing. I am hesitant to switch to CC because IEW worked so well and there’s more to learn there, but CC looks like a good program as well. With IEW she became partly independent mid-way through the year and that was a blessing for me to have a little time freed up. Would CCI allow for a level of independence as well? Should we stick with what we know works for us this year and dive into CC another year when we’re not changing everything else up as well? If I did IEW, I would do Fables, Myths & Fairy Tales, which seems to align well with the MP course of study for 4th.
• She used the entire MP States & Capitals curriculum last year, so I was thinking about giving her a break from geography this year (other than review) since she will be doubling up on several of the other subjects as a new user.
• She finished All About Reading Level 4 near the end of her 3rd grade year and is capable of reading independently but lacks good comprehension skills and confidence when encountering new words. I plan to have her do all the reading for the literature guides, but for the American studies supplemental reading I would either read aloud to her or take turns with her. I’ll also do the 4th grade read-alouds with her and my 2nd grader.

My rising 2nd grader has dyslexia and struggles much with reading and spelling. He previously went to tutoring for dyslexia, is currently in speech therapy and is getting ready to start vision therapy. This kid is really smart in an engineering sense; he’s constantly building and figuring out how things work. He has incredible perseverance and seems to succeed at most anything he puts his mind to besides reading, spelling, and sports. He loves being read to and has excellent comprehension when someone else is doing the reading. For this reason, part of what I know he will be doing this year is listening to all of the 4th grade read-alouds, American studies supplemental reading (he loves history), and any of the 4th grade lit his sister will read aloud to him. My thought for him within the MP curriculum is to only do the recitation, copywork (manuscript) and enrichment (either K or 2nd, see below), along with what we are already doing for him in reading, spelling, math, and extra therapies. I might want to add in the SC writing as well. I looked at Simply Classical (the placement test recommends level 3), but it doesn’t look like we’d actually use much of the program. He already has a math program that’s working well and he needs Orton-Gillingham reading instruction (and I don’t want to switch up what we’re already doing in that area). Does this sound like an appropriate approach or does it sound like there is anything I am missing that would be beneficial to start now? (I am hoping to start Prima Latina with him in 3rd grade if he progresses enough, but want to focus on mastering more of the English language now.)

For my youngest, I already own reading, spelling, and handwriting curriculum. I’ll have her do the K recitation as well. I’d like to do one enrichment and read-aloud set for my kindergartener and 2nd grader together. Any advice on which one to do?

One last note: we attend Bible Study Fellowship and this year’s study will cover the divided kingdom. I thought I’d take my older two through Christian Studies II (orally for the 2nd grader, but he is capable of and will enjoy engaging with the content), as its timing seems to pair nicely with what we will be studying in BSF. I would also like to continue with the second book of Apologia’s worldview curriculum, as we loved doing the first last year. Does anyone have experience with dovetailing an outside Bible study and/or worldview curriculum with CS, and do you think this is overkill or a great reinforcement? If I were to drop anything of the three it would be the Christian Studies.

Thank you for taking the time to share any insights with me. It seems a daunting task to figure this all out and I appreciate wisdom from those who have gone before me!

[howiecram]

Hello!

If you have not watched these videos: https://www.memoriapress.com/videos/...hering-videos/. (scroll down to the one that talks about using the MP study guides) I would do that first. It really explains how the MP guides are used, which might be different than you are thinking. The gist is that, especially in the 4th grade you are alongside your daughter with the guides. For Greek Myths, there is an audible version and I would use that for sure! For the literature, you would want to team read the book with her. She reads, you read. Since comprehension is an issue, you might begin by going over the vocabulary. The idea is that from the little context she might be able to think about what the word means, but at the beginning of the year that might be harder. You can write the words on the board (or a sheet of paper) and then write the definitions (scrambled) on the other side and have her try and draw a line between the matching words. After you do this, read over the comprehension questions together so she has an idea of what she is looking for. At that age, I had underlined the vocabulary and marked where the answers to the comprehension questions were in the margin. As we read together, we did stop and I would talk about what we just read and make sure that the vocabulary "stuck". That would be day 1. On Day 2, I might have my child listen on an audio book and then on Day 3 we would do the comprehension questions. (the lesson plans only plan for 2 days, but our first year we needed more time. It does mean 1 less book gets read, but that's ok!). When you get to the comprehension questions, choose a few for her to write her answer. The others can be done orally. I would try and work up towards the end of the year to writing more answers. The questions you have selected she will orally answer (in a complete sentence) and you write down exactly what she says. After you write it down you read it and see if it makes sense or if you can fix the sentence a little. Once you make your edits, she copies what you wrote. This might go on for at least 1/2 to a quarter of the year. As the year goes on you might see some more confidence and she might be able to read on her own and try and write her answers to the easier comprehension questions. For those I might write a few key words on the board that she might have trouble spelling.

I think you are on the right track with 4NU. Sticking with your math and spelling is just fine. You'll still want to order the full core (emailing the sales department) and make a list. 4NU No Math, No Spelling, No States and Caps (I might consider adding the States and Caps review booklet though, just to keep it fresh). You will still receive a package discount. Since you are new to MP, I would actually personally just wait on the writing and let the literature guides, greek myths and mammals be your writing practice for this year. (in the enrichment section there are opportunities for paragraphs, etc) Then, make a decision the following year. I personally found Fable at the 5th grade level to work very well.

I have used the Simply Classical levels from A-5/6. If you are going to use All About Reading/All About Spelling (or some other Orton phonics program), and your own math, I agree that perhaps he needs other options. However, you are also new to the curriculum, and less might be more. A few considerations/options:

Get the SC3 Enrichment and read aloud those books (these are all American History books that even your 4th grade daughter will benefit from - if you take this option, don't worry about the ones scheduled in the 4th grade - those are completely optional) and do the science, art, music as they come up with all 3 kids (states and capitals appear midway through orally-it would be a good review for the 4th grader and great intro for the younger 2). Look at the samples of the Sc Writing 1 and 2 and choose one or the other Bible version. If you get the SC2 Writing/Bible, I would get the Bible that correlates as the hope is by the end of the year the child is reading the Bible themselves.

Your K'er - get the full package, but do the SC3 Enrichment, instead of the K.

Welcome!

[HannahQ]

Wow! Thank you so much, Christine! This is SO helpful.

Hello!

If you have not watched these videos: https://www.memoriapress.com/videos/...hering-videos/. (scroll down to the one that talks about using the MP study guides) I would do that first. It really explains how the MP guides are used, which might be different than you are thinking. The gist is that, especially in the 4th grade you are alongside your daughter with the guides. For Greek Myths, there is an audible version and I would use that for sure! For the literature, you would want to team read the book with her. She reads, you read. Since comprehension is an issue, you might begin by going over the vocabulary. The idea is that from the little context she might be able to think about what the word means, but at the beginning of the year that might be harder. You can write the words on the board (or a sheet of paper) and then write the definitions (scrambled) on the other side and have her try and draw a line between the matching words. After you do this, read over the comprehension questions together so she has an idea of what she is looking for. At that age, I had underlined the vocabulary and marked where the answers to the comprehension questions were in the margin. As we read together, we did stop and I would talk about what we just read and make sure that the vocabulary "stuck". That would be day 1. On Day 2, I might have my child listen on an audio book and then on Day 3 we would do the comprehension questions. (the lesson plans only plan for 2 days, but our first year we needed more time. It does mean 1 less book gets read, but that's ok!). When you get to the comprehension questions, choose a few for her to write her answer. The others can be done orally. I would try and work up towards the end of the year to writing more answers. The questions you have selected she will orally answer (in a complete sentence) and you write down exactly what she says. After you write it down you read it and see if it makes sense or if you can fix the sentence a little. Once you make your edits, she copies what you wrote. This might go on for at least 1/2 to a quarter of the year. As the year goes on you might see some more confidence and she might be able to read on her own and try and write her answers to the easier comprehension questions. For those I might write a few key words on the board that she might have trouble spelling.

I will definitely watch that video so I have a better understanding of how to use the guides, but your explanation and tips already added some insights that I know will be beneficial for my daughter. I really appreciate the tip about the Greek Myths audiobook. I was worried about pronouncing all of those names!

I think you are on the right track with 4NU. Sticking with your math and spelling is just fine. You'll still want to order the full core (emailing the sales department) and make a list. 4NU No Math, No Spelling, No States and Caps (I might consider adding the States and Caps review booklet though, just to keep it fresh). You will still receive a package discount. Since you are new to MP, I would actually personally just wait on the writing and let the literature guides, greek myths and mammals be your writing practice for this year. (in the enrichment section there are opportunities for paragraphs, etc) Then, make a decision the following year. I personally found Fable at the 5th grade level to work very well.

I didn't know there was a States & Capitals review book, so thanks for the info. I will definitely get that. I am loving the idea of skipping the formal writing program this year and doing writing through enrichment activities instead. Last year I skipped a lot of enrichment ideas that involved writing because I felt that it was too much with her formal writing course also. It feels like a lightening of the load to have a smaller number of distinct subject books to open up, while actually encouraging deeper engagement with what we're already studying. Win!

I have used the Simply Classical levels from A-5/6. If you are going to use All About Reading/All About Spelling (or some other Orton phonics program), and your own math, I agree that perhaps he needs other options. However, you are also new to the curriculum, and less might be more. A few considerations/options:

Get the SC3 Enrichment and read aloud those books (these are all American History books that even your 4th grade daughter will benefit from - if you take this option, don't worry about the ones scheduled in the 4th grade - those are completely optional) and do the science, art, music as they come up with all 3 kids (states and capitals appear midway through orally-it would be a good review for the 4th grader and great intro for the younger 2). Look at the samples of the Sc Writing 1 and 2 and choose one or the other Bible version. If you get the SC2 Writing/Bible, I would get the Bible that correlates as the hope is by the end of the year the child is reading the Bible themselves.

This is brilliant! Combining American history and enrichment for all 3 kids makes it seem much more manageable!

Your K'er - get the full package, but do the SC3 Enrichment, instead of the K.

I own AAR and was vacillating between using that in place of the MP phonics or doing the MP full curriculum. I see you have experience with AAR and was wondering your thoughts on this? She is already picking up reading pretty naturally; it does not appear that she will have difficulties like my son.

Welcome!

[HannahQ]

I replied on here a few days ago but the reply is still green and marked 'unapproved'. I'm assuming it was overlooked and hoping that by replying again it will be seen and approved. Thanks!

[HannahQ]

howiecram I replied to you shortly after you responded, but my response was locked up for a few days as 'unapproved.' I was wondering if you have any thoughts on using AAR vs the MPK phonics?

Also, I see the K read-alouds are listed under “literature and enrichment” in the CM. If I’m doing the SC3 enrichment with all 3 kids, would I still do the K read-alouds as literature with my K’er but skip any other enrichment subjects surrounding the books? Or skip read-alouds and just use the SC3 enrichment in their place?

One final question is about whether to use Latina Christiana vs. Prima Latina for my upcoming 4th grader. I believe she is intellectually capable of learning Latina Christiana and would feel greatly accomplished if she did it. However, she tends to have a fixed mindset and believe she is not capable of learning new and hard things. Part of me is thinking about using Prima Latina because it would be much easier for her and I know we'd have less struggle. Another part of me wants to teach her to rise to the occasion, persevere through something that takes hard work and focus, and come out stronger for it. Do you have any experience on how best to approach a situation like this?

[howiecram]

howiecram I replied to you shortly after you responded, but my response was locked up for a few days as 'unapproved.' I was wondering if you have any thoughts on using AAR vs the MPK phonics?

Also, I see the K read-alouds are listed under “literature and enrichment” in the CM. If I’m doing the SC3 enrichment with all 3 kids, would I still do the K read-alouds as literature with my K’er but skip any other enrichment subjects surrounding the books? Or skip read-alouds and just use the SC3 enrichment in their place?

One final question is about whether to use Latina Christiana vs. Prima Latina for my upcoming 4th grader. I believe she is intellectually capable of learning Latina Christiana and would feel greatly accomplished if she did it. However, she tends to have a fixed mindset and believe she is not capable of learning new and hard things. Part of me is thinking about using Prima Latina because it would be much easier for her and I know we'd have less struggle. Another part of me wants to teach her to rise to the occasion, persevere through something that takes hard work and focus, and come out stronger for it. Do you have any experience on how best to approach a situation like this?

In my honest opinion, no matter the reading ability, starting with MPK phonics is the way to go. Also, with the new videos MP has produced, I would say MP all the way. My youngest had the benefit of a class with Michelle during the COVID school closures. She offered a phonics review class for K and 1. Her reading really took off following Michelle. I believe Michelle made the video MP now includes in the K phonics package during the rest of the school closures that year. They were not available for my older two. I really think the video and MP lesson plans will make the phonics much less tedious for you and your child.

If, however, you get to book D in the First Start Reading series and start to see some regression or the child can not keep up with the pace, THEN, I think going to AAR is a good move. AAR, in my opinion, does not really teach blending well, or slow enough. For my oldest, we did FSR books A-C, but I didn't keep up with the drill like you were supposed to. She seemed to be "fine", but once we got to book D and blends and long vowels were worked on in the same week, she couldn't keep up. I found starting AAR from lesson 1 built her confidence. We cruised along to lesson 18 and then took it one lesson a day...until the dreaded lesson 24? 25? and we took 3 weeks to finish that one! Once we got past that in AAR 1, she moved swiftly along in AAR. She did AAR 1, 2 and 3 and she did AAS 1, 2 and 3. (we actually didn't do AAS "well" and we had to repeat level 2....). The problem with doing AAR (if your child doesn't struggle) is moving into 1st grade core will be delayed. You really need to be half way through AAR 2, before you can move into MP1 (it felt like doing all of the 1st book in AAR2 was the point I noticed all 3 kids really pick up the reading). That being said, with my youngest we did move back to AAR (she really had a hard time learning to read!). She didn't seem to struggle with reading and I had her finish AAR 2, then we went onto the Storytime/More Storytime and she was able to finish it in a semester. If your child resist writing, I wouldn't say that is a reasonable goal. So, in that long answer, I'd recommend getting the whole K Phonics package.

If you choose to do the SC3 enrichment, you don't need to do the K enrichment. I can see it's listed as literature, but any reading aloud TO the child is beneficial. You could consider making a list of the books scheduled in the K guide and just read them at bedtime. Also, I'm now thinking if you choose the SC3 enrichment, you might choose the SC3 enrichment writing instead of the Bible. My suggestion there though, is to do the writing about a week behind because the history information might be less familiar to him. AS a family, I think you mentioned doing Christian Studies 2 this year with your oldest. I would just do it all together and after reading and orally answering a few of the questions dismiss the younger two children. You could then do the map work, enrichment, etc with your oldest. In the back of the Christian Studies 2 teacher's guide there are Bible vs to memorize. On page 111 the verses are titled "Do you remember?" These are all the verses scheduled in the K-2 curriculum. You might just tackle 1/3 this year with your younger two. The oldest could then do the verses from CS2 and possibly try and learn the others along with her siblings.

As for latin, at 4th grade I would really recommend LC. Prima is really designed for younger children. Don't overthink LC. The primary goal is to memorize the vocabulary and learn how to conjugate a verb and decline a noun. You do learn some English grammar along the way. My oldest only completed half of LC and did beautifully in First Form as a 5th grader. (she is now finishing Second Form). There is a lot of work scheduled in LC, but now I see that you don't have to do it all. Also, some can be done orally. There are translation sections that if I had my son write them out, 10 translations would take forever..but once we started doing them orally, he could do them quickly. You want to do SOME writing, but it doesn't have to all be written out. The review worksheets I find are best done a week behind as well. Drilling at least 2x a week is also very helpful. My middle child had a hard time with the grammar questions so I just started drilling those (so he basically memorized and didn't necessarily understand, but it's starting to click now!)

[howiecram]

P.S if you got the K Copybook and 2nd grade Copybook, you would know which verses from the "Do you remember" were from each grade. Also we didn't mention cursive. Does your older child write in cursive? The Copybook for the CS2 is very small and totally in cursive. If your child isn't writing in cursive, just a notebook to copy the verse from would be fine. I would get NAc1 to teach her cursive though. Your K'er will be find with the copybook in the K curriculum. Your 2nd grader though, if he doesn't know cursive will need this book instead of the one scheduled in the core (same verses just in print instead of cursive) https://www.memoriapress.com/curricu...econd-edition/

Good luck planning your year!

[HannahQ]

Oh my goodness, Christine, you are a godsend! Thank you so much for taking the time and putting such thought into your reply. I've been confused with all the choices and feel much more confident with your guidance.

In my honest opinion, no matter the reading ability, starting with MPK phonics is the way to go. Also, with the new videos MP has produced, I would say MP all the way. My youngest had the benefit of a class with Michelle during the COVID school closures. She offered a phonics review class for K and 1. Her reading really took off following Michelle. I believe Michelle made the video MP now includes in the K phonics package during the rest of the school closures that year. They were not available for my older two. I really think the video and MP lesson plans will make the phonics much less tedious for you and your child.

If, however, you get to book D in the First Start Reading series and start to see some regression or the child can not keep up with the pace, THEN, I think going to AAR is a good move. AAR, in my opinion, does not really teach blending well, or slow enough. For my oldest, we did FSR books A-C, but I didn't keep up with the drill like you were supposed to. She seemed to be "fine", but once we got to book D and blends and long vowels were worked on in the same week, she couldn't keep up. I found starting AAR from lesson 1 built her confidence. We cruised along to lesson 18 and then took it one lesson a day...until the dreaded lesson 24? 25? and we took 3 weeks to finish that one! Once we got past that in AAR 1, she moved swiftly along in AAR. She did AAR 1, 2 and 3 and she did AAS 1, 2 and 3. (we actually didn't do AAS "well" and we had to repeat level 2....). The problem with doing AAR (if your child doesn't struggle) is moving into 1st grade core will be delayed. You really need to be half way through AAR 2, before you can move into MP1 (it felt like doing all of the 1st book in AAR2 was the point I noticed all 3 kids really pick up the reading). That being said, with my youngest we did move back to AAR (she really had a hard time learning to read!). She didn't seem to struggle with reading and I had her finish AAR 2, then we went onto the Storytime/More Storytime and she was able to finish it in a semester. If your child resist writing, I wouldn't say that is a reasonable goal. So, in that long answer, I'd recommend getting the whole K Phonics package.

That's what I was thinking, that it might be difficult to transition from AAR to MP later. I will take your advice and start with the full MP K. Thank you!

If you choose to do the SC3 enrichment, you don't need to do the K enrichment. I can see it's listed as literature, but any reading aloud TO the child is beneficial. You could consider making a list of the books scheduled in the K guide and just read them at bedtime. Also, I'm now thinking if you choose the SC3 enrichment, you might choose the SC3 enrichment writing instead of the Bible. My suggestion there though, is to do the writing about a week behind because the history information might be less familiar to him. AS a family, I think you mentioned doing Christian Studies 2 this year with your oldest. I would just do it all together and after reading and orally answering a few of the questions dismiss the younger two children. You could then do the map work, enrichment, etc with your oldest. In the back of the Christian Studies 2 teacher's guide there are Bible vs to memorize. On page 111 the verses are titled "Do you remember?" These are all the verses scheduled in the K-2 curriculum. You might just tackle 1/3 this year with your younger two. The oldest could then do the verses from CS2 and possibly try and learn the others along with her siblings.

I'm glad to know I can look at the K read-alouds as a 'bonus' rather than requirement since I'm doing the SC3 enrichment. I like the idea of doing the SC3 writing that goes along with the enrichment. Thanks for the tips on CS2 and Bible memorization. Do you think that sounds reasonable to start with CS2 since it correlates nicely with our BSF study, or do you think it would be better to start with CS1 for any reason?

As for latin, at 4th grade I would really recommend LC. Prima is really designed for younger children. Don't overthink LC. The primary goal is to memorize the vocabulary and learn how to conjugate a verb and decline a noun. You do learn some English grammar along the way. My oldest only completed half of LC and did beautifully in First Form as a 5th grader. (she is now finishing Second Form). There is a lot of work scheduled in LC, but now I see that you don't have to do it all. Also, some can be done orally. There are translation sections that if I had my son write them out, 10 translations would take forever..but once we started doing them orally, he could do them quickly. You want to do SOME writing, but it doesn't have to all be written out. The review worksheets I find are best done a week behind as well. Drilling at least 2x a week is also very helpful. My middle child had a hard time with the grammar questions so I just started drilling those (so he basically memorized and didn't necessarily understand, but it's starting to click now!)

I am going with LC! I really want to show her what she's capable of and the tips on how to scale it back a bit (and the knowledge we don't have to do it all) will be helpful in making it through.

Also, thank you for the info about cursive. My oldest writes in cursive, so I will use the copybook in the 4NU package for her, but I was wondering what to do for my 2nd grader who doesn't know cursive yet. I'm going to get the one you linked.

I also wanted to try recitation with my 2nd grader and was wondering if you thought I should go with the SC3 or Grade 2 individual recitation plans? There aren't samples of those and I don't know the difference. Since he's only using the enrichment and writing I was just going to buy the individual lesson plans for enrichment (I don't see any for writing) rather than the entire SC3 manual, so figured I could pick whichever recitation is most suitable.

[howiecram]

I have mixed feelings on the CS. Ultimately, I personally would probably just stick with what's in the guide. The stories in CS1 are more familiar than the ones in CS2 and might make for a better year to enter into using full MP. If you do CS2 you would need a different copybook as well. (the one from 5th grade). You could use the BSF this year as an intro to NEXT year instead. I think if you are doing the enrichment from SC3, I might go with those recitations. There are a few grammar questions that you might not have gotten to, but just memorize and move on. . If you buy the SC3 enrichment guide (which you need), you won't need the lesson plans for SC3. It pretty much lays it out for you in the guide. The SC3 writing is also laid out in the workbook. There are 4 pages and you basically do 1 a day, no need for lesson plans for that either! . You would need the recitation plans. You can't go wrong actually with either the SC3 or MP2 recitations. They are very similar.

[howiecram]

Also, if you do CS1 this year, it might make for a better family rotation. Your K'er does CS1-3 (just listen and very simple answers to questions and is excused). Your 2nd grader gets CS1 this year and again mostly answers orally. You might give him a notebook to draw pictures to retell the stories and write 1-2 sentences (that he says orally and you write on the board for him to copy next to his picture). Next year, he could do the full CS2 with his sister, expecting less written work from him. The following year you have a 2nd, 4th and 6th grader and they will finish CS3. The next year you cycle back to CS1 for your now 3rd and 5th grade (again expect more out of the 5th grader). Your now 7th grader would move onto CSIV independently.

[HannahQ]

I like this. I think CS1 will be a lot of review for the older kids because they read Genesis in BSF a couple years ago and we just finished reading it again as a family. I think it will give them confidence to start with CS1 and I like how that cycle works out for future years. Thanks for the tips about not needing enrichment and writing lesson plans as well. I think I'm finally done with the questions and greatly appreciate your help!