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    Switching to R&S Math 2

    Hello, this is our first year starting MP! My rising 2nd grader is repeating 2nd grade, since she has a September birthday and we need to solidify the basics. I'm doing the 2nd grade core pretty much as written, but I'm not sure what to do about math. She finished about 3/4 of her 2nd grade math program last year and then kind of topped out on it and did Xtra Math practice. I gave her the R&S placement test and she nailed all of the 2nd grade problems except for a couple of the harder borrowing and carrying ones. She can borrow and carry but only mentally - so the harder ones like 62-39 she gets wrong by doing them in her head. It doesn't occur to her to line them up, even though we did it last year.

    I know she shouldn't just move into 3rd grade. I want her foundation to be solid. That said, she opened her math books and scoffed a bit about them being too simple. I'm tempted to do the CG plans as written, and build it all solid, but I also don't feel like she needs to go totally back to the beginning of unit 2 out of 4. Should I speed up the workbooks, but continue all the drills? She is eager to move ahead into multiplication.
    Emily
    2022-2023: first year with MP cores

    DS - 12 MP 7
    DD - 9 MP 4
    DD - 7 MP 2
    DD - 5 MP K
    DD - 4
    DS - 2
    DD - new baby

    #2
    I wonder if she might just be ready for 3rd R&S math. Let’s see better where she is with number bonds and the addition and subtraction algorithm.
    when you say she does them in her head and doesn’t think to line them up, how is she doing them in her head? Is she using the standard algorithm just mentally (like picturing carrying and all that) or is she using mental math techniques taught in another program (like one of the Singapore programs)? We use Singapore and man could my kids do those double digit additions and subtractions quickly in their head. They then fought when the curriculum actually taught the algorithm because it is much slower. They didn’t want to bother, until the book taught three digit and then they realized why one would want to write it down the standard way 😂.
    Has she been taught three digit addition and subtraction and how does she do with those? I haven’t used R&S 2, but I own grade 3. Looking in it, it appears that three digits with carrying and borrowing were covered in grade 2 as it only briefly mentions it before assigning it in the earlier levels. Multiplication doesn’t start in grade 3 until lesson 41.
    I’d also ask how her number bonds are (or whatever it is R&S calls it). Where the student learns 9,8,17 and drills that so they know that 9+8 and 8+9 are 17 but also 17-9 is 8 and 17-8 is 9. R&S ensures mastery of these bonds in grade 2.
    My suggestion: if she knows how to do three digit addition and subtraction even if she prefers it in her head, if she *can* do it, and her number bonds are solid, move on to grade 3. The first 40 lessons will endlessly practice carrying and borrowing and the problems are already written up and down and are easy to work out in the space given. If she has been taught *how* and already understands the place values and what exactly the carrying and borrowing tricks actually do, then just let her do it over and over in the 3rd grade book to force the naturalness of it. If she already knows the technique and why the technique works then no need to go in depth like in 2nd. 3rd will practice it enough for mastery. Since you said she wants to move into multiplication, and that isn’t covered until lesson 41 of grade 3, don’t hold her back if she is ready.
    Now, if she doesn’t really understand carrying and borrowing, she gets confused when borrowing from 0, or she doesn’t know how to “double borrow” in three digit numbers, then she probably needs to stick to 2nd, but she can probably skip units until you get to what she hasn’t been taught yet.
    I am a big believer in math mastery in younger grades. Do not move too fast and let them lose confidence. At the same time, I know many kids get it much faster than R&S moves and having to do all that rote drill when one has it mastered is quite deflating. So if it truly is mastered, move on. Again, I would want to see that she knows all about carrying and borrowing even if she hasn’t had much practice actually doing it (rather than using mental math techniques). She will get lots of practice doing it in the grade 3 book.
    Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
    DD, 27, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
    DS, 25, BS '18 mechanical engineering
    DS, 23, BS '20 Chemsitry, pursuing phd at Wash U
    (DDIL married #3 in 2020, MPOA grad, BA '20 philosophy, pusrsing phd at SLU)
    DS, 21, Physics and math major
    DD, 18, dyslexic, 12th grade dual enrolled
    DS, 14, future engineer/scientist/ world conquerer 9th MPOA diploma student
    DD, 8 , 2nd Future astronaut, robot building space artist

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by momgineer View Post
      I wonder if she might just be ready for 3rd R&S math. Let’s see better where she is with number bonds and the addition and subtraction algorithm.
      when you say she does them in her head and doesn’t think to line them up, how is she doing them in her head? Is she using the standard algorithm just mentally (like picturing carrying and all that) or is she using mental math techniques taught in another program (like one of the Singapore programs)? We use Singapore and man could my kids do those double digit additions and subtractions quickly in their head. They then fought when the curriculum actually taught the algorithm because it is much slower. They didn’t want to bother, until the book taught three digit and then they realized why one would want to write it down the standard way 😂.
      Has she been taught three digit addition and subtraction and how does she do with those?

      Does this work, to comment in a different color? I will try. Yes, this is sort of right. We use Math Mammoth and they did a ton of work on place value and mentally adding and subtracting 3 digit numbers using various techniques. But it's safe to say she's using other techniques than the algorithm, since when I demonstrated it for her she looked at me like I was crazy, so she's totally forgotten it (we ended our year early plus we did mostly Xtra Math for a while, so it's been 4 months since we've done any MM).

      I haven’t used R&S 2, but I own grade 3. Looking in it, it appears that three digits with carrying and borrowing were covered in grade 2 as it only briefly mentions it before assigning it in the earlier levels. Multiplication doesn’t start in grade 3 until lesson 41.
      I’d also ask how her number bonds are (or whatever it is R&S calls it). Where the student learns 9,8,17 and drills that so they know that 9+8 and 8+9 are 17 but also 17-9 is 8 and 17-8 is 9. R&S ensures mastery of these bonds in grade 2.
      ​​​​​​
      These are not automatic. She takes some time to think.

      My suggestion: if she knows how to do three digit addition and subtraction even if she prefers it in her head, if she *can* do it, and her number bonds are solid, move on to grade 3. The first 40 lessons will endlessly practice carrying and borrowing and the problems are already written up and down and are easy to work out in the space given. If she has been taught *how* and already understands the place values and what exactly the carrying and borrowing tricks actually do, then just let her do it over and over in the 3rd grade book to force the naturalness of it. If she already knows the technique and why the technique works then no need to go in depth like in 2nd. 3rd will practice it enough for mastery. Since you said she wants to move into multiplication, and that isn’t covered until lesson 41 of grade 3, don’t hold her back if she is ready.
      Now, if she doesn’t really understand carrying and borrowing, she gets confused when borrowing from 0, or she doesn’t know how to “double borrow” in three digit numbers, then she probably needs to stick to 2nd, but she can probably skip units until you get to what she hasn’t been taught yet.
      I am a big believer in math mastery in younger grades. Do not move too fast and let them lose confidence. At the same time, I know many kids get it much faster than R&S moves and having to do all that rote drill when one has it mastered is quite deflating. So if it truly is mastered, move on. Again, I would want to see that she knows all about carrying and borrowing even if she hasn’t had much practice actually doing it (rather than using mental math techniques). She will get lots of practice doing it in the grade 3 book.
      This is excellent advice. Thank you! Yes she is not solid on borrowing from zero at all. She will get the answer right by thinking for a long time about it mentally. But it leads to mistakes (like 800-240 she might say "umm, 660 wait no 560." But then 803-249 she will get too confused and subtract the 3 from the 9). Sounds like we should do 2nd as planned but move forward when she has mastered something, with special attention to the unit with borrowing and carrying. Thanks!

      Emily
      2022-2023: first year with MP cores

      DS - 12 MP 7
      DD - 9 MP 4
      DD - 7 MP 2
      DD - 5 MP K
      DD - 4
      DS - 2
      DD - new baby

      Comment


        #4
        We're on lesson 102 with R&S Arithmetic 2 (this is my 2nd child working through it). I would say that you could use flashcards to figure out where those fact families (number bonds?) fail, and then target workbook lessons from there. Skip areas that are 100% solid (or do them orally...or have your child answer 1-2, like in fractions). In Workbook 3, the borrowing and carrying really takes off, so start from where they limit it to all borrowing, then do lessons where it is mixed with borrowing/not borrowing. R&S has a unique way of getting a student to know when to borrow. I also like to augment it with counting bears or base 10 material. If a child can see that you cannot take 9 unit cubes from 3 unit cubes (in 803-249), and the child reads the problem correctly, it will all begin to click.

        FWIW, there is daily skip counting in MP2's version of R&S Arithmetic 2 (that's all the multiplication products), and she will be doing explicit multiplication & division by the end (pretty sure it's 1's, 2's, 5's, 10's and obviously 0). We are going to be doing MP2 in the fall with R&S Arithmetic 3 because we will have finished second grade math by then. My little one needed more time in literature and writing but was on-level in math. So, if your child catches up with a quick refresher and wants to move on to age-grade math but steadily chug along with MP2 literature, no big deal.
        Mama of 2, teacher of 3
        Summer: First Start French I
        SY 22/23
        6A, teaching TFL & CC Chreia/Maxim in group, and Koine Greek
        MP2 w/ R&S Arithmetic 3


        Completed MPK, MP1, MP2, 3A, 4A, 5A
        SC B, SC C, SC1 (Phonics/Math), SC2's Writing Book 1

        Comment


          #5
          My oldest did about 5 math programs her 1st/2nd grade year. I still wasn't sure if she was ready for R&S3, but we moved ahead and "tried". I invested a lot of time on the first 40 lessons of R&S3 (where most people coming from R&S2 probably breeze right through or skip) and it was well worth it. I had debated going back and re-doing R&S2, but it really did work out. My oldest just finished R&S6 and I'm very pleased with her progress! I did find trying to skip through R&S 2 to be a little more challenging because picking up the drilling was a little more challenging. The drills are really essential and I found that just starting at the beginning of R&S3 allowed me to see what she needed and what she didn't (or could be done less frequently). Sorry to offer conflicting advice!
          Christine

          (2022/2023)
          DD1 8/23/09 -Mix of MP 6/7
          DS2 9/1/11 - Mix of SC 7/8 and SC 9/10 (R&S 5, FFL)
          DD3 2/9/13 -SC 5/6

          Previous Years
          DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4, Mix of MP3/4, Mix MP5/6
          DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, AAR/Storytime Treasures), CLE Math, Mix of MP3/4, MP5 (literature mix of SC 7/8/MP5)
          DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK, AAR), MP1, MP2

          Comment


            #6
            Thank you for the different perspectives! Can I ask, do they schedule the blossoms and bees posters? I bought them but I'm hoping the use of them is really spelled out because I don't know what to do with them exactly.
            Emily
            2022-2023: first year with MP cores

            DS - 12 MP 7
            DD - 9 MP 4
            DD - 7 MP 2
            DD - 5 MP K
            DD - 4
            DS - 2
            DD - new baby

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Emily L View Post
              Thank you for the different perspectives! Can I ask, do they schedule the blossoms and bees posters? I bought them but I'm hoping the use of them is really spelled out because I don't know what to do with them exactly.
              Yes! Starting on lesson 5 as part of the "before class" it says "Mount the 11 and 12 blossom charts on the wall". Then during class time, all you do is point and recite the facts. 11, 9, 2, 11, 8, 3, 11, 7.4, etc. It tells you in the teaching instruction when to do this. They will be used through lesson 40 than not again anymore.
              Christine

              (2022/2023)
              DD1 8/23/09 -Mix of MP 6/7
              DS2 9/1/11 - Mix of SC 7/8 and SC 9/10 (R&S 5, FFL)
              DD3 2/9/13 -SC 5/6

              Previous Years
              DD 1 (MPK, SC2 (with AAR), SC3, SC4, Mix of MP3/4, Mix MP5/6
              DS2 (SCB, SCC, MPK, AAR/Storytime Treasures), CLE Math, Mix of MP3/4, MP5 (literature mix of SC 7/8/MP5)
              DD3 (SCA, SCB, Jr. K workbooks, soaking up from the others, MPK, AAR), MP1, MP2

              Comment


                #8
                There are two different visual aids: the clover patch (blossoms with and without bees on a green field) and the blossoms chart (one large blossom with a number, the "whole," written on it and bees with the "parts" written on their wings). In the newest edition of R&S Arithmetic 2, both are used throughout all 4 workbooks. There are conflicting instructions about where and how to mount them. Point 1 (on p.17 of the TM under "Using the Blossoms Charts") says charts should be mounted at a place not easily seen when students are doing seatwork. Yet point 6 says to "add chart after chart to the wall until Blossom Charts 11-18 are all displayed." They are both used all the way to the end. Indeed, on p. 332 of the TM for Workbooks 3-4, Lesson 158, under "Preparation," it says "Tack (18) 9 9 on Blossom 18 Chart. Mount it to the wall."

                Here's how I used them:
                On teach days, when students learn new math concepts, we use the room with a whiteboard and keep the materials displayed all year. The clover patch is scheduled at the introduction of each triplet. If you look at the TM for Workbooks 3-4, on p. 30, Lesson 83 will list under "Preparation" (with a dark pink highlight): "Tack (13) 9 4 flash cards above the clover patch in the following order." Under the "Materials" subheading, it will list "13 blossoms, 9 with bees." The clover patch is scheduled through Lesson 157 of Workbook 4 (for triplet 18, 9, 9), but by the time you reach Lesson 90, the patch doesn't make it to the materials lists. It will have "tack flashcards to clover patch" instructions each week it is used, but it won't separately list it under "materials." Conceptually the separate visual aid is not necessary because it will also be printed in the workbook, but because I already made mine for the first kid, I keep using it. Subsequent weeks when a triplet is practiced, additional items that represent the triplet are used (such as snowmen frozen vs. melted, bald eagles perched vs. soaring, calves spotted vs. solid, or cornstalks ripe vs. seedlings). We use the blossoms chart(s) the most often. We tend to repeat those daily. My student has so sufficiently practiced his fact families that he doesn't even think to look up at the blossoms chart for an answer. Some parents keep these as pages in a 3-ring binder to review and put away. My little one also frequently does his practice pages at his desk in his room, so you have options for keeping your display up and out.
                Mama of 2, teacher of 3
                Summer: First Start French I
                SY 22/23
                6A, teaching TFL & CC Chreia/Maxim in group, and Koine Greek
                MP2 w/ R&S Arithmetic 3


                Completed MPK, MP1, MP2, 3A, 4A, 5A
                SC B, SC C, SC1 (Phonics/Math), SC2's Writing Book 1

                Comment

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