Please help me let go of Ambleside Online

[pickandgrin]

Jessica, thank you for responding. I remember that long ago, a post of yours inspired me to consider MP and I have never been able to find it again. It had something to do with your being up super late one night trying to schedule and piece everything CM together, feeling exhausted and defeated, and then stumbling upon MP and feeling like it offered everything you were looking for in a package. I read that back when I was in my first year of AO and having doubts about the CM method. And I am starting to see that what it really comes down to is that I'm afraid to let go of the "method". But if I'm constantly doubting a method, how great can that be for my family?

What I want is to land. And then I want to enjoy all our books freely without it having to be narrated all the time. Like I've heard some moms on here say before: "MP in education, CM in mothering" or something like that.

Thank you, ladies! I never expected so much response!! It's encouraging at a time when I need a lot of help launching.

I'm so thankful to hear that old post was helpful! I used Sonlight for two years (1st/2nd) before receiving a Classical Teacher Magalog in the mail and spending a summer trying to put together my own MP curriculum, only to finally just buy the box. Even so, I think many of us could take your sentence and fill in the blank with our experience: "being up super late one night trying to schedule and piece everything __________ together, feeling exhausted and defeated, and then stumbling upon MP and feeling like it offered everything you were looking for in a package."

Parents who are already running a home with small children already have decision fatigue before taking on homeschooling as well. How much more so when they add daily choices and decisions that have to be made for schooling. I am proud to have had Tanya Charlton as my personal curriculum director for 10 years know. I've said out loud to others many times, "If it's good enough for Cheryl Lowe, it's good enough for me." Choosing a curriculum you want to partner with is a step of trust. I have a wide range of homeschooling friends; I'm thankful there are different paths available so that each family can find a true partner they can trust. I've found mine!

Here are a few thoughts on your comments on method. Let me give the caveat that I am not an expert in Charlotte Mason and take my comments about this with a grain a salt. My area of expertise is with MP. Ms Mason was an educational philosopher. To draw out an analogy, think about if Mrs. Lowe had written a six-volume series on education! But that is not what MP is. It is an embodied philosophy by way of a distinct curricular path. Following a philosophy is much more difficult than following a curriculum. If you have not already read it, I highly recommend Mr. Cothran's article on What is a Curriculum? This may help you put your finger on a few things you are looking for with a change.

Where CM philosophy becomes a curriculum is places like AO or others who do the hard work of transferring a philosophy into discrete yearly/monthly/daily to-dos to help keep you going. They respect the parent's autonomy by leaving a lot up to the parent-teacher. This is where I hear that you are experiencing fatigue. In this way I think it's important to acknowledge that even though a philosophy, or parts of a philosophy, may be a good fit, the daily outworking of that educational philosophy in a specific curriculum may not be a good fit. It's possible for a piece of clothing not to fit in many different ways. Yes, you can take something you love or that really speaks to you, maybe Education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life, and chew on it as you build your homeschool over the years. In his book The Intellectual Life, A. G. Sertillanges gives this encouragement:

The man who wants to acquire from his authors, not fighting qualities, but truth and penetration, must bring to them this spirit of conciliation and diligent harvesting, the spirit of the bee. Honey is made of many kinds of flowers (7.V, p.165).

As an encouragement, much of what you love about Charlotte Mason you will find in classical education because it predates her. Habit training? Try Aristotle. Like the bee, take some of the pollen that has stirred your heart and carry it with you into your use of Memoria Press. That said, be alert for where the philosophical underpinnings do not align. Read the front matter in the Teacher Guides from MP and try to understand why things are done a certain way. The instructions have a purpose behind them. If you are not already familiar with the video repository on the MP site, drop in here to learn more: https://www.memoriapress.com/videos/ Specifically, Leigh Lowe's 2021 plenary session on From Comprehension to Contemplation will speak to a lot of what you are asking about the place of literature in the homeschool. https://www.memoriapress.com/sodalitas-plenaries/ A few last resources to you for growing in your understanding of the Memoria Press curriculum and educational philosophy behind it, visit the Memoria Press YouTube channel. Of particular help with these topics will be the Classical Et Cetera podcast where these topics are explicitly explored. There are short videos on how to use particular pieces of curriculum there as well, like Classical Composition or the Famous Men series.

In the off-chance that you haven't looked at it--Coming to Sodalitas this summer would help you jump start. It's time and money, but if you make the trip you will not regret it.

This is a lot, but I hope it is helpful.

[qlauraq]

I totally understand! I started off so sold on CM method. We used a combo of SL/WTM, added in all sorts of living books for science and history, and tried SL LA and English for the Thoughtful Child and borrowed book lists and ideas from a half dozen CM companies. Sadly, I realized after a few years that my kids needed more explicit instructions in many subjects, such as grammar, so we started adding things like Rod & Staff English and IEW writing. Then we decided to add Latin with PL then LC, and because of these started reading even more about Classical. While I love encouraging my voracious readers to read as many good books as they can, I now appreciate a good lit guide that forces a slow read, and a more methodical approach to lit analysis. So here we are starting child #3, and MP has complete packages for lower grades (something they didn't have when we started out), and I am getting to see how much more readily my daughter absorbs and applies information and skills when it is covered systematically, and I feel more confident that we aren't going to miss any important ELA topics.

IMO CM sounds so amazing as a theory of education, and I think there is a lot of good we can glean from it, but I don't think it would work for all children, and can be much harder to implement if parents have limited time to plan and execute.

[Brittany]

As an encouragement, much of what you love about Charlotte Mason you will find in classical education because it predates her. Habit training? Try Aristotle. Like the bee, take some of the pollen that has stirred your heart and carry it with you into your use of Memoria Press. That said, be alert for where the philosophical underpinnings do not align. Read the front matter in the Teacher Guides from MP and try to understand why things are done a certain way. The instructions have a purpose behind them. If you are not already familiar with the video repository on the MP site, drop in here to learn more: https://www.memoriapress.com/videos/ Specifically, Leigh Lowe's 2021 plenary session on From Comprehension to Contemplation will speak to a lot of what you are asking about the place of literature in the homeschool. https://www.memoriapress.com/sodalitas-plenaries/ A few last resources to you for growing in your understanding of the Memoria Press curriculum and educational philosophy behind it, visit the Memoria Press YouTube channel. Of particular help with these topics will be the Classical Et Cetera podcast where these topics are explicitly explored. There are short videos on how to use particular pieces of curriculum there as well, like Classical Composition or the Famous Men series.

In the off-chance that you haven't looked at it--Coming to Sodalitas this summer would help you jump start. It's time and money, but if you make the trip you will not regret it.

This is a lot, but I hope it is helpful.

This is a good reminder. It would be easy to sound like I'm decrying the CM methods altogether, but the truth is that her methods brought me from dry-blah-fill-in-the-blank-pass-the-test-forget-it-all-blah to choosing curricula that would engage my kids with living ideas. Now I believe that MP can harness what I most believe about CM methods and add in what I've been missing with purposeful workbooks.

I'm very interested in that Comprehension to Contemplation recording.

[Brittany]

I totally understand! I started off so sold on CM method. We used a combo of SL/WTM, added in all sorts of living books for science and history, and tried SL LA and English for the Thoughtful Child and borrowed book lists and ideas from a half dozen CM companies. Sadly, I realized after a few years that my kids needed more explicit instructions in many subjects, such as grammar, so we started adding things like Rod & Staff English and IEW writing. Then we decided to add Latin with PL then LC, and because of these started reading even more about Classical. While I love encouraging my voracious readers to read as many good books as they can, I now appreciate a good lit guide that forces a slow read, and a more methodical approach to lit analysis. So here we are starting child #3, and MP has complete packages for lower grades (something they didn't have when we started out), and I am getting to see how much more readily my daughter absorbs and applies information and skills when it is covered systematically, and I feel more confident that we aren't going to miss any important ELA topics.

IMO CM sounds so amazing as a theory of education, and I think there is a lot of good we can glean from it, but I don't think it would work for all children, and can be much harder to implement if parents have limited time to plan and execute.

I've spent so much effort piecing a million things together while trying to keep it cohesive and "simple". At first it was fun and I felt like I was rockin' it! But now I'm just getting burned out and don't want all the details to depend on me. I just want to lean on something and discern what I want or don't want from there.

Now I just need to properly place my upcoming 4th grader.
Idea 1: Place her in 3M with 4th grade math, so that she can get a slower start, and so that both of us will not be overwhelmed and have a successful year.
Idea 2: Place her in 4NU and take it very slowly.
Idea 3: Place her in 4NU, but start her and her upcoming 2nd grade brother in Prima Latin together to keep it simple and enjoyable for all of us. But is the Grammar Recitation so connected to the Latin curriculum that you cannot seperate their graded path? Must PL be with Intro to Grammar, LC be with Grammar Recitation1, and so forth?

Decisions, decisions. I did speak with someone at MP yesterday and she thought that PL would be too simple for a 4th grader, but I'm not sure I really got through where my daughter is at. She is only 8 and will turn 9 this December, 3 months after she starts 4th grade. Sometimes I feel that we proceeded with academics too soon based on her reading so well so early. I'm seriously considering starting her in 3M, which would be challenging, but successful.

I hope I'm not over-asking! I know I'm one of many on this forum wishing we could just sit down all together and ask everything over a cup of tea. I can't thank you enough!

[Jweishaar]

I've spent so much effort piecing a million things together while trying to keep it cohesive and "simple". At first it was fun and I felt like I was rockin' it! But now I'm just getting burned out and don't want all the details to depend on me. I just want to lean on something and discern what I want or don't want from there.

Now I just need to properly place my upcoming 4th grader.
Idea 1: Place her in 3M with 4th grade math, so that she can get a slower start, and so that both of us will not be overwhelmed and have a successful year.
Idea 2: Place her in 4NU and take it very slowly.
Idea 3: Place her in 4NU, but start her and her upcoming 2nd grade brother in Prima Latin together to keep it simple and enjoyable for all of us. But is the Grammar Recitation so connected to the Latin curriculum that you cannot seperate their graded path? Must PL be with Intro to Grammar, LC be with Grammar Recitation1, and so forth?

Decisions, decisions. I did speak with someone at MP yesterday and she thought that PL would be too simple for a 4th grader, but I'm not sure I really got through where my daughter is at. She is only 8 and will turn 9 this December, 3 months after she starts 4th grade. Sometimes I feel that we proceeded with academics too soon based on her reading so well so early. I'm seriously considering starting her in 3M, which would be challenging, but successful.

I hope I'm not over-asking! I know I'm one of many on this forum wishing we could just sit down all together and ask everything over a cup of tea. I can't thank you enough!

My son is 8 and will be 9 on December 4th and will be perfectly placed starting grade 3 in the fall. He’s also a voracious reader and can easily read the 3rd grade novels, but I don’t think he would be ready/mature enough for the work of 4th. If she’s only going to be 8 in the fall, she’d technically be only in 3rd grade based on age. I’d definitely keep her in 3rd if I were you.

We dabbled in prima this year and many recommended that we just repeat prima this year and do it fully, so my 2nd and 3rd grader will be doing it together. We did do the grammar this year so I’m moving on to EGR 1 next year with my 3rd grader even though we’re doing 2nd grade Latin again. I don’t think it should be an issue, but some more experienced moms can probably speak better to the grammar question than I.

MP is a challenging curriculum and your daughter is really the right age for third grade (reading level aside, maturity is a huge factor in a good placement). I would really hesitate to put her in 4th grade from the get go; you could always move faster/up later if third grade really is too far below where she is at. A year full of new subjects/style of curriculum will provide enough challenges of its own. Plus, the 3rd grade materials sitting on my shelf look so delightful. Just my two cents, of course

Good luck figuring out your placement!

[enbateau]

Based on her age, I like the idea of starting your eldest in 3rd. MP is a pretty advanced curriculum, and you are coming from a more flowy (less regimented) style. Here's an interesting compromise to consider: Put both kids in Prima Latina this coming fall, and then do a one-year pace of LC the next. You will end up at the same point as those who do LC over two years. There is nothing babyish about PL. It is pretty awesome that 2nd graders can get through it. You can decide whether R&S Arithmetic 4 is the right fit for her by looking at samples. Whatever you do, make sure she has a ROCK solid foundation (automaticity and accuracy) in multiplication and division up to 10s facts. I might also consider where you want her to hit pre-algebra and algebra and back up the math levels to that point. We are on track to hit pre-algebra in 7th for a child who will be 12 at the start of that school year.

No, the EGR program does not have to line up with any Latin level. Either she will get it in EGR first, or she will get it in Latin first. The two play well off of each other, but they certainly don't always line up. For example, I have a student in Second Form Latin who is only on EGR II. He began in FFL and EGR I, and he is continuing on through both programs. For contrast, my eldest is doing SFL with EGR III. There is a little overlap (pronouns, passive voice), but everything my students need to succeed in Latin is explained in their Latin text. The Forms TMs (teacher's manuals) have a massive grammar section in the back of every book to get YOU up to speed so that you fully understand it (and thus can teach it).

One final comment on the Core Skills LA booklet. It has a lot of extra practice for grammar concepts students might find challenging, and it's really affordable. There are other ways to get that practice, but they will always be more time-consuming or expensive to source. As MP has received feedback over time, it has changed and added components that shore up skills or plug tiny gaps. As you can imagine, the market for shoring up little gaps is small, whereas the market for exhaustive (complete) curricula is huge! It can be challenging to sub out materials that don't add to a full day. With that said, at times we found the CS LA exercises to be too much extra writing, so we mostly completed the pages orally or with limited writing (circling words instead of rewriting them on a line or only rewriting a single word instead of the entire sentence). In 5A, by midyear we dropped it completed and chose to supplement a different way (that MP also sells). As you can imagine, it adds to an already full day, so we do it as-needed. I like to start the MP way and try it out, doing everything as they suggest to give it its due. Then, after the year is done, we assess how everything worked for our family. I will confess that I am the least subbing-out user on the forum. I *really* enjoy everything that has been compiled by MP for us. But try it as-written first.

[Mom2mthj]

Sorry that I am late to the discussion. I too have dabbled with many things at the beginning - WTM, Sonlight, and Ambleside. I too got tired of the constant planning and research that was necessary. My kids got tired of never knowing when they were done for the day (particularly with the year we tried to use WTM) as there was always more we could do. I think with CM I liked the short lesson concept and the handicrafts, but I never bought in completely on child led learning and narrations never were done as well as I had hoped and my voice was just as tired as it was with Sonlight. MP has been wonderful - not perfect, because no curriculum is perfect - but it checks the boxes I needed check. It gives our day an indication of when we are done, it is consistent and proven in their school, and the external aspects of the other programs I can add if I want to. My littles have never written as much as many on here do, but at least I have a guide for discussion. We have also included things like handicrafts and folk music singing (grandma’s area). My boys have made an obligatory knit scarf and my daughter has become an amazing knitter - she even has some sock patterns for sale on ravelry. The older boys have enjoyed blacksmithing. I have enjoyed not having to pour over catalogs all winter to figure out what we are doing next. Instead I have time now to work on my own Latin and (very slowly) read City of God for my own education and teacher training.

As for placement, I would strongly suggest that you get each child of school age (K+) their own core. Over the years I have found combining to be more work and more confusion and someone of the pair is not not appropriately placed. Prima Latina is too easy for a fourth grader. You will like Latina Christiana much better. A one year pace is my preference. I think 4NU is a great product. I would do what you can out of that core and call it a great year.

Welcome to the MP family!

[Brittany]

Ladies, I want to thank you so much for all of your input. It's been a huge help. I've used spring vacation to get razor sharp on what my goals are for the kids. I've also had some great talks with hubby about how hard it is for me to let go of AO. He said that he believes that it's better to invest their time learning a skill like Latin instead of reading tons of books that introduce historical figures and stories in AO (they would have been reading Canadian, US, British and World History books at the same time). Mostly, he and I desire a deeper understanding instead of a broad, shallow exposure. And after I watched the "Why Johnny Can't Add" speech from Mr. Cothran, I felt released from making math so conceptual, which I believe has been crippling our progress. I could just go on and on about the clarity I've been given this past week. Now I believe I'll be able to invest my efforts into actually teaching instead of always searching and questioning methods.

I was going to ask if anyone has their kids write straight into the R&S Math 3 textbook instead of copying into a notebook. But then I found myself coming back to my new focus "Will this help to sharpen a skill she needs to have?" And so I think it will serve my 3rd grader better to copy into a notebook.

Thank you again!

[tanya]

Brittany,

Our 3rd graders at HLS do write in the textbook. In 4th grade, we transition to paper, so part of our 4th grade year is teaching that skill. For 3rd, since there is plenty of white space and we are working so hard on mastering multiplication, we choose to let students write in their texts; we get more problems done that way. It's really just about what we choose to spend our time on. Having students write on paper in 4th grade entails teaching them to head the paper, spread the problems out, line everything up correctly (and we use graph paper, so that's another new aspect).

But it's no problem to make the transition in 3rd if you have a fluent writer and you prefer to teach that skill in 3rd.

Tanya

[Brittany]

Brittany,

Our 3rd graders at HLS do write in the textbook. In 4th grade, we transition to paper, so part of our 4th grade year is teaching that skill. For 3rd, since there is plenty of white space and we are working so hard on mastering multiplication, we choose to let students write in their texts; we get more problems done that way. It's really just about what we choose to spend our time on. Having students write on paper in 4th grade entails teaching them to head the paper, spread the problems out, line everything up correctly (and we use graph paper, so that's another new aspect).

But it's no problem to make the transition in 3rd if you have a fluent writer and you prefer to teach that skill in 3rd.

Tanya

Thank you Tanya! If it's good enough for MP then it's good enough for me. I'd prefer that for the transition, but wasn't sure that would benefit her as much. I'm so glad to hear you have already worked out that kink.

[DanielleGeri]

Hello,

I don't have a ton of time and have not even read all the responses, so please forgive any redundancy. I switched to Memoria mid-year this year from AO (Y5 and Y3). This semester is a little wonky as I made a transitional plan to get us from one to the other. We are almost exclusively Memoria at this point. It is AMAZING.

I share your concerns with AO and could write a novel about it's good and bad for us so far. I appreciate so much about it and probably wouldn't change how we did these younger years, but switching to Memoria feels like coming home. This is what I imagined when I imagined AO back when the kids were tiny. The structure is helpful for all of us. While Memoria feels more "teacher-heavy" than what a lot of my peers do, I believe it's much easier on me than AO. Additionally, I have seen tremendous improvement in the children's writing and comprehension already.

Starting every day at the same time with our mini-morning time has been essential. I began with just reading the prayer they have in the manual, the math drills, and then dedicate my morning to teaching instead of other chores (which is probably something I should have been doing better with AO). I've added reading a poem, artist study, and catechism into that time. I miss our hymn study and may include that in the future, but I do want this time to stay brief.

My kids are doing more free reading now that we have switched and as long as I am intentional about making sure some are really good books, I think they will get a very rich literature education.

Happy schooling!
Danielle

[Brittany]

Hello,

I don't have a ton of time and have not even read all the responses, so please forgive any redundancy. I switched to Memoria mid-year this year from AO (Y5 and Y3). This semester is a little wonky as I made a transitional plan to get us from one to the other. We are almost exclusively Memoria at this point. It is AMAZING.

I share your concerns with AO and could write a novel about it's good and bad for us so far. I appreciate so much about it and probably wouldn't change how we did these younger years, but switching to Memoria feels like coming home. This is what I imagined when I imagined AO back when the kids were tiny. The structure is helpful for all of us. While Memoria feels more "teacher-heavy" than what a lot of my peers do, I believe it's much easier on me than AO. Additionally, I have seen tremendous improvement in the children's writing and comprehension already.

Starting every day at the same time with our mini-morning time has been essential. I began with just reading the prayer they have in the manual, the math drills, and then dedicate my morning to teaching instead of other chores (which is probably something I should have been doing better with AO). I've added reading a poem, artist study, and catechism into that time. I miss our hymn study and may include that in the future, but I do want this time to stay brief.

My kids are doing more free reading now that we have switched and as long as I am intentional about making sure some are really good books, I think they will get a very rich literature education.

Happy schooling!
Danielle

Thank you for sharing your experience, Danielle. It's so nice to continue hearing from Moms that know how I feel and have carved the path ahead of me. One of the biggest themes I'm seeing is that it will require more of me in one way (guidance, checking work, recitation, etc), yet relieve me in other ways (deciding what they need to know from a book, figuring out what I expect, wondering if I should ask for more out of narrations, etc). I prefer the former. I can work hard and follow a plan and it leaves me feeling nicely exhausted from the effort. LOL But the latter leaves me feeling defeated and over-defensive of my choices and keeps me up at night and won't let my brain rest...like ever.

I've got a cart full of 2nd and 3rd grade materials. At first, the cost had me stumbling (I live in Canada so it "looks" more expensive than the catalogue price when I order from my Canadian distributor) so I just sat and thought hard about why I'm willing to pay this price for 2nd and 3rd grade. All the reasons were worth it. And it's still way cheaper than the Christian school here in town. I am paying for accountability, structure, assurance, and something that I can depend on. That is worth a lot more than what I'm paying.

Happy Trails!

[DanielleGeri]

I should clarify: AO richly blessed our house and my own soul. I am pleased with the years we spent with it. That being said, if I had more children, I don't *think* I would start them in it.

You may end up saving money just purchasing Memoria and sticking with it. I ended up attempting to supplement AO often without success. Honestly, I feel pretty good about how I prepared my children for Memoria, but I think I did it the hard and expensive way.

There is far more peace in our home-school now.

[Brittany]

I should clarify: AO richly blessed our house and my own soul. I am pleased with the years we spent with it. That being said, if I had more children, I don't *think* I would start them in it.

You may end up saving money just purchasing Memoria and sticking with it. I ended up attempting to supplement AO often without success. Honestly, I feel pretty good about how I prepared my children for Memoria, but I think I did it the hard and expensive way.

There is far more peace in our home-school now.

I agree with you. I think that AO is great if you have the energy and committment to really be vigilant about gently prodding them forward in skills, but it takes quite a bit more spontaneous mental creativity than I have sometimes. AO has been the catalyst for helping me to successfully add and document poetry, hymns, memorization and art in our morning routine, and I used their Bible sequence for a few years. It was a great experience, however stressful in it's own way. We have had some absolutely wonderful times. I find that the MP cores include so much of that same stuff I love about AO, but with workbooks to help me guide them. Yay!

I also spent just about as much as an MP core just purchasing all the books for AO since I wanted them to hold it in their hands vs. reading it on a device. And all the math curricula, and language arts curricula because I didn't quite trust the natural method, yet wanted a curriculum that lined up with it, and and and.....lots of money. But also, lots of knowledge about curriculum. Now my friends will ask me about different things they are looking at because I'm pretty sure I've looked at all of them. haha

[Enigma]

Hi! I sent you a pm. If you can't open it, I will be happy to repost here.