Jumping into Novare in 8th grade, sequence?

[sycamore]

Hello!

My daughter was in a co-op last year for 7th grade and did Apologia General Science (some basic concepts, some earth science, and a little bit on basic physics/chemistry). She's not in the co-op this year, and I'm thinking of switching her into the Novare program. Novare just meshes so much more with our pedagogical and religious outlook. (I know, we're late in the year...we tried doing some self-directed work, but it's not working out...definitely time for a curriculum)!

The question is, do I start her with earth science now, then do physical science/intro physics/bio/chem in HS? Do I skip earth science and do physical science now to make room for a more advanced science in 12th? Do I do earth science now and skip physical science because it's similar to intro physics? She is a very bright kid and has always done well in all her subjects--in fact she's supposed to be in 7th this year, but we bumped her a year ahead last year for the co-op and she did just fine in a combined 7th/8th class--but she is not a lover of hard science, nor am I. I don't imagine a STEM college/STEM career future for her. For high school sciences I'm planning to look into online classes as Schole, but for this year, I would try to DIY it with her and the curriculum.

FYI she's doing Elements of Mathematics Foundations online...it's proof-based mathematics for kids adept at math. It's not "traditional" math but is more like how mathematicians think of math. She should be getting to algebra concepts next year.

Thank you for any advice! I am a new-ish homeschooler and am new to this forum--I heard it was the place to come for Qs on Novare!

[Mom2mthj]

First, I would leave her in her age based grade. I understand the bit about the co-op placement or school when you are trying to find the right level for academics, but in general I don’t believe bright kids being homeschooled are well served by being pushed a grade ahead. Just teach the content they are ready for without pushing them out the door early. The extra year to mature and cover some advanced cool stuff aren’t things I recommend skipping. You are using a deep sounding math program, but since she won’t be in algebra until next year that is when she can take the Intro to Physics course. I like the earth science book so you could do that this year, not too much math involved. I would skip the physical science book since she did a general apologia class already and do the intro to physics book when she is in algebra then biology and then chemistry. Chemistry really needs algebra 2 concepts so that is the reason for biology first. Good luck and welcome!

[Beorn]

Welcome to the MP forum, sycamore. I am a big fan of the Novare courses and I am guessing you will be as well. Agreed about liking their pedagogical and religious outlook. I am so thankful that Novare is available as an option these days.

Others can probably answer your question better than I can but I'll still give it a shot. I agree with Mom2mthj that waiting to take Intro to Physics until Algebra I is completed or at very least concurrent is wise. Same for General Chemistry and Algebra II. I am a big fan of both Earth Science and Physical Science so I struggle with skipping one (or both).

Have you taken a look at the Physical Science book? Did what your daughter did in Apologia General Science cover the same topics/ideas in Physical Science? Or Earth Science? Would it be a lot of review for her?

What are her likes/dislikes? Does your state require a certain amount of science credits? Does she have any idea what field she would like to be in after graduation? Is medical field a possibility? Answering these types of questions will help us give a better answer to you.

Since neither she nor you like the hard sciences/STEM and depending on your answers above, I'd still consider covering Novare's Earth Science and Physical Science in 8th/9th unless it is mostly review. So much good material covered there that would give your daughter a wonderful knowledge base no matter what she ends up doing in life. From there, Intro to Physics then Biology and/or General Chemistry would be the route I would suggest, but again, it depends on your answers to the above questions.

[sycamore]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Mom2mthj , I really appreciate your reflections on not pushing bright kids out of the nest too soon. I agree and it's a great point. Thank you for that. DD is a fall birthday and fit well academically in the bumped up co-op class...and she's an "old soul" intellectually... but definitely a young soul socially, and I think she could benefit from time to be at home, be a kid, explore her interests, etc. I will think more about this! I appreciate your thoughtful reply about sequencing the science. The earth science is definitely more where her interests lie right now.

Beorn Thank you for taking the time to offer these thoughtful follow-up questions! I have looked over the TOCs for both Earth Science and Physical Science and the TOC from the Apologia General Science. It seems like the Apologia was heavier on the earth science topics, although there were definitely several chapters on basics of Physics and Chemistry...atoms, forces, etc. They did experiments and did the lab notebook, etc. I am not deeply familiar with the Apologia (I've never taught it myself and this was my first experience with it) so I don't know if the Novare would be a step up in terms of complexity and serve as a kind of "spiral" instead of just reviewing the same things. I will say the kids in the co-op where my daughter was last year are doing physical science this year for 8th/9th with an Apologia text.

As far as your other questions, DD is a voracious reader and very interested in writing, literature, history, and religion, but is also very interested in nature and small-scale, sustainable agriculture, with some side interest in genetics (breeding animals, etc.).

I actually think your suggested sequence of doing Earth, Physical, Intro Physics, Bio, Chem could serve her well. My only question was whether I could count the physical science as a high-school course in 9th grade so she could have four high-school science credits; however if we don't do a co-op again and consider her "back" in 7th grade this year, it would still be fine because we'd have another year after the chemistry to do another high-school science if we wanted to.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness! Thank you again!

[bean]

I am familiar with EMF. My dd used it. I agree with the others. She won't have enough algebra for the physics unless you supplement. Which EMF course is she on?

I also agree to leave her at her age grade on paper as long as possible. My dd is applying for college as an "11th grader" and it's fine. She did bring up some high school credits from 8th grade.

[bean]

To comment some more (so I don't get flagged if edit my original post). A student who is young socially would not do well on a college campus, so definitely keep her at her age grade on paper.

What you do in coop doesn't matter as much on your transcript. Kids grow and change a lot in high school. It much trickier to add on a year than it is to graduate early. Just keep good records and you can create a transcript when the time comes.

[sycamore]

bean Thanks for your reply! I appreciate your insight on the transcript etc. down the road. This makes a lot of sense, and I am in no rush to bump anyone out f the best or rush anyone through education to get to “the next thing.”

When you say she won’t have enough algebra w/ EMF do you mean she won’t have enough at all? They have free supplemental courses called pre-algebra and algebra that unlock at a certain point (though I don’t know when that point is!), but there are also the courses in the regular sequence called algebra concepts… Or do you mean she won’t have enough by next year to do the Intro Physics? She’s currently almost done with ordered n-tuples—just has review & quiz left.

Thank you!

[Beorn]

Or do you mean she won’t have enough by next year to do the Intro Physics?

I will let bean confirm for herself, but I am guessing she meant the above.

[Beorn]

Beorn Thank you for taking the time to offer these thoughtful follow-up questions! I have looked over the TOCs for both Earth Science and Physical Science and the TOC from the Apologia General Science. It seems like the Apologia was heavier on the earth science topics, although there were definitely several chapters on basics of Physics and Chemistry...atoms, forces, etc. They did experiments and did the lab notebook, etc. I am not deeply familiar with the Apologia (I've never taught it myself and this was my first experience with it) so I don't know if the Novare would be a step up in terms of complexity and serve as a kind of "spiral" instead of just reviewing the same things. I will say the kids in the co-op where my daughter was last year are doing physical science this year for 8th/9th with an Apologia text.

As far as your other questions, DD is a voracious reader and very interested in writing, literature, history, and religion, but is also very interested in nature and small-scale, sustainable agriculture, with some side interest in genetics (breeding animals, etc.).

I actually think your suggested sequence of doing Earth, Physical, Intro Physics, Bio, Chem could serve her well. My only question was whether I could count the physical science as a high-school course in 9th grade so she could have four high-school science credits; however if we don't do a co-op again and consider her "back" in 7th grade this year, it would still be fine because we'd have another year after the chemistry to do another high-school science if we wanted to.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness! Thank you again!

You are very welcome, I hope you have found some helpful information here. And hope for more to come. As for high school credit, I would say the Introductory Physics course from Novare could for sure be considered for high school credit. As for Physical Science, I would say that it would be close. I think if you beefed it up some with labs, reading, etc. you could, but I would say as is, that it leans towards the middle school level. Perhaps someone else can chime in here more definitively?

Thanks for the additional information you gave, that was helpful. With her interests, I would consider an Anatomy & Physiology course in her later years either in place of or following General Chemistry if you have the time. With how you described the Apologia course at co-op, I would probably pass on the Earth Science (unless there was something as you looked at the ES TOC that you/DD really wanted to cover) and jump in to Physical Science now, especially since it is October already. If DD's genetics interests continue to grow, I would say definitely Biology and also Anatomy & Physiology. Also a strong background from Physical Science and Introductory Physics will go a long way for your DD too. Just my thoughts.

[Beorn]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Mom2mthj , I really appreciate your reflections on not pushing bright kids out of the nest too soon. I agree and it's a great point. Thank you for that. DD is a fall birthday and fit well academically in the bumped up co-op class...and she's an "old soul" intellectually... but definitely a young soul socially, and I think she could benefit from time to be at home, be a kid, explore her interests, etc. I will think more about this! I appreciate your thoughtful reply about sequencing the science. The earth science is definitely more where her interests lie right now.

Beorn Thank you for taking the time to offer these thoughtful follow-up questions! I have looked over the TOCs for both Earth Science and Physical Science and the TOC from the Apologia General Science. It seems like the Apologia was heavier on the earth science topics, although there were definitely several chapters on basics of Physics and Chemistry...atoms, forces, etc. They did experiments and did the lab notebook, etc. I am not deeply familiar with the Apologia (I've never taught it myself and this was my first experience with it) so I don't know if the Novare would be a step up in terms of complexity and serve as a kind of "spiral" instead of just reviewing the same things. I will say the kids in the co-op where my daughter was last year are doing physical science this year for 8th/9th with an Apologia text.

As far as your other questions, DD is a voracious reader and very interested in writing, literature, history, and religion, but is also very interested in nature and small-scale, sustainable agriculture, with some side interest in genetics (breeding animals, etc.).

I actually think your suggested sequence of doing Earth, Physical, Intro Physics, Bio, Chem could serve her well. My only question was whether I could count the physical science as a high-school course in 9th grade so she could have four high-school science credits; however if we don't do a co-op again and consider her "back" in 7th grade this year, it would still be fine because we'd have another year after the chemistry to do another high-school science if we wanted to.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness! Thank you again!

You are very welcome, I hope you have found some helpful information here. And hope for more to come. As for high school credit, I would say the Introductory Physics course from Novare could for sure be considered for high school credit. As for Physical Science, I would say that it would be close. I think if you beefed it up some with labs, reading, etc. you could, but I would say as is, that it leans towards the middle school level. Perhaps someone else can chime in here more definitively?

Thanks for the additional information you gave, that was helpful. With her interests, I would consider an Anatomy & Physiology course in her later years either in place of or following General Chemistry if you have the time. With how you described the Apologia course at co-op, I would probably pass on the Earth Science (unless there was something as you looked at the ES TOC that you/DD really wanted to cover) and jump in to Physical Science now, especially since it is October already. If DD's genetics interests continue to grow, I would say definitely Biology and also Anatomy & Physiology. Also a strong background from Physical Science and Introductory Physics will go a long way for your DD too. Just my thoughts.

[Beorn]

sycamore, if you end up looking for a lab kit to go with Physical Science, I would suggest considering the following:

https://www.homesciencetools.com/pro...ription-anchor

[Beorn]

There is one more thread I think would be helpful for you to read through, sycamore. Take a good read through Differing Science Paths:

https://forum.memoriapress.com/forum...ce-paths/page2

Particularly take note of Cindy in Indy's posts at the end of page 1 and the one on page 2 of the thread.

Also, take a look at CAP's sequencing statements here for the different pathways:

https://novarescienceandmath.com/rec...math-sequence/

There are truly many great courses and pathways available now.

[sycamore]

I read over the thread you mentioned, and some other threads, and started to muse: if DD is really in 7th grade now (as opposed to 8th--where she'd be if she'd stayed in co-op), then I wonder if we don't have a little more flexibility. As Beorn notices, yes, she did get a lot of earth science topics last year in Apologia, and a couple chapters each on physical science/life science. If we planned for Novare Physical Science NEXT year, in 8th, isntead of this year, then went into the Novare HS sequence for 9/10/11, leaving 12 for science of choice...we could do something else entirely this year, which was originally our plan anyway. We had wanted to do nature-focused study, but I didn't have a good curriculum and we found we just weren't organized or focused enough. It looks like there are some Tiner books that we could use for life science / nature topics this year geared toward grades 6-8...our goal had been to do a lot of nature/outside work anyway...and it's already mid-October. I don't want to set her back, but stretching out would also give her more time to work through the EMF math at her own pace and not have to rush to get through all the pre-algebra in time to do the Intro Physics next year. I wonder...

[bean]

bean Thanks for your reply! I appreciate your insight on the transcript etc. down the road. This makes a lot of sense, and I am in no rush to bump anyone out f the best or rush anyone through education to get to “the next thing.”

When you say she won’t have enough algebra w/ EMF do you mean she won’t have enough at all? They have free supplemental courses called pre-algebra and algebra that unlock at a certain point (though I don’t know when that point is!), but there are also the courses in the regular sequence called algebra concepts… Or do you mean she won’t have enough by next year to do the Intro Physics? She’s currently almost done with ordered n-tuples—just has review & quiz left.

Thank you!

Yes, Beorn is correct. The algebra "consolidation course" doesn't happen until after course 13. I suspect your dd could handle the algebra before then, but you might need to supplement.

My dd only did through Mappings because she didn't start EMF until she was in Algebra 2. The program has only been complete for a couple years. She moved on to the eImacs University Computer Science/ Calculus after that.

It is my understanding that Aplogia Physical Science teaches quite a bit of math as it goes along, so it might be worth looking at that text as a physical science option and then continuing with Novare.

We used one year of Novare, and it wasn't a great fit for my dd. It was the ACPC, so not one of the MP books, though.

[Mom2mthj]

Yes, Beorn is correct. The algebra "consolidation course" doesn't happen until after course 13. I suspect your dd could handle the algebra before then, but you might need to supplement.

My dd only did through Mappings because she didn't start EMF until she was in Algebra 2. The program has only been complete for a couple years. She moved on to the eImacs University Computer Science/ Calculus after that.

It is my understanding that Aplogia Physical Science teaches quite a bit of math as it goes along, so it might be worth looking at that text as a physical science option and then continuing with Novare.

We used one year of Novare, and it wasn't a great fit for my dd. It was the ACPC, so not one of the MP books, though.

Sycamore, I really like that you are planning out a path for science (what order for subjects), but in regard to the bolded comment, be flexible with your implementation. I really, really, really wanted to love Novare, but I just haven’t found them to live up to the hype. Some of it is me and some of it is the books. Two of my kids have tried the Physical Science book (previous edition to what is now available) and it was not a good fit for either one of them. In trying to help kid 2 I actually started reading the text with the intent to answer the questions rather than just to read as I had done prior to purchasing or with my daughter because he was my kid that struggled early on with reading. Sadly, I had blown off my daughter’s comments and impressions and avoidance of completing the book. At times I found that the explanations were overly wordy and sometimes reading the text and the the section questions I really had no clue what the author was trying to get them to come with for an answer. I really expected that my son had just missed something, but I had to go read the sample answers to figure out what he wanted. The content was middle school level, but I expected that end of section questions to be answerable by a middle school student using only the material presented. We also used ASPC (the older version that Bean spoke of above) once and Earth Science and I own Chemistry. I think part of the problem is that Novare really assumes a classroom to bring things together. I think the books would be a great spine to teach from and many places like MPOA use them for online classes. A classroom teacher could easily address most of the issues I have, but with multiple kids I don’t have the time or inclination to fill that role. FWIW, I have a master’s in mechanical engineering so I could do it, but I don’t have time. We abandoned the book after a few chapters. Novare can be used at home, but personally I don’t get the impression that Mayes himself thinks the books are sufficient for self teaching. I didn’t get the same impression of Earth Science - my son who completed this book really liked it, but it was a different author. Be aware, that the labs involved in the Physics/Chemistry books require lots of equipment and many are not appropriate for home completion…we certainly were not going to instrument a vehicle and get a bunch of friends to push it around in an empty parking lot. I am not sure how most schools could do that one. That was one of the early labs in the physics/ASPC book. You will need to spend some time to come up with alternate labs, probably a set from Home Science tools. It will be interesting to see what CAP does with the series since they do have a large homeschool base. This year my 8th grader and I are using year 1 of The Rainbow from Beginnings publishing with a friend as a do over on Physical Science and are really liking it.

sorry to be such a downer-they are beautiful books with a large following, just a heads up that there are some issues to be aware of as you try out Novare.