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    Latin advice needed

    Hey all,
    I'm a long-time MP user and I need some advice for upcoming 7th grade son. He has been working on Second Form this year through the streaming class, but he has not retained the knowledge that I think is necessary to move on. This is partially because of his attitude towards the subject and because I stepped away a bit to try to encourage some independence. I think he needs to repeat the class and I am considering signing him up for Second Form on MPOA. My thinking is that MPOA will give some structure, keep us on pace and he can interact with others who are also taking Latin so that he knows he is not the only one. Looking for some feedback on this? Anyone else been in this same situation?

    My husband is not pleased with this development, and feels it is somehow going to hold him back from completing all the things regarding Latin. I could send him onto Third Form but I know from learning languages myself that it builds upon previous knowledge. Any advice for dealing with him as well? Thanks in advance!

    #2
    I look forward to hearing the official MP answer to your question, but I thought I’d comment based on my experience with three students who have gone past Fourth Form. First, I’d think about what exactly he is not retaining. If he is not keeping up with vocabulary, grammar forms, and grammar drill questions; but he remembers how to apply the grammar, then I say you have plenty of time this summer to drill that and get it in his mind before school starts and you can do MPOA Third Form. For instance, if totally understand passive voice, can recognize it, and can properly translated it (even if he is looking up vocabulary and grammar charts), then he probably just needs to focus and commit the vocabulary and grammar to memory and then can move on. If however, he isn’t retaining the application of the grammar, I would repeat Second with MPOA.
    I can attest that putting my 8th grader in MPOA Fourth Form after doing through Third at home brought out the best in him. That positive peer pressure worked wonders. Hopefully you see the same benefit from online class.
    Also- it’s not a big deal to take Second Form in 7th. That means finishing Fourth Form in 9th which finishes the equivalent of Henle 1 a year before those who start Henle 1 at a two year pace in 9th. That leaves him three years to do Henle 2, then Christian Latin or Henle 3, and finally AP Latin in 12th. So assure your husband that it is better to learn the material well than to forge ahead and struggle every year. There is still plenty of time to get to AP and even if he didn’t get past Henle 2 or even Fourth Form, he will have had way more Latin than almost every other American high school student.
    Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
    DD, 26, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
    DS, 24, BS '18 mechanical engineering
    DS, 22, BS '20 Chemsitry, pursuing phd at Wash U
    (DDIL married #3 in 2020, MPOA grad, BA '20 philosophy, pusrsing phd at SLU)
    DS, 20, Physics major
    DD, 17, dyslexic, 11th grade customizednMP plus co-op
    DS, 13, future engineer/scientist/ world conquerer 8A
    DD, 7 , 1ST Future astronaut, robot building space artist

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. You are validating some of my own thoughts: that MPOA will provide some positive peer pressure, & that wherever he ends up finishing in Latin is way more Latin than the majority of his peers. Your thoughts on evaluating where he is in Second Form are helpful too as my daughter stopped at Third Form but it's been a few years since I was assisting her.

      Comment


        #4
        Agreeing with Debbie above.
        I love the idea of a repeat of Second Form with MPOA and think that weekly accountability and instant quiz/test feedback can be a game changer. I've personally taught SF the last two years and the second year things stuck in my mind and made sense in a way they had not on my previous passes (I think I've done the workbook at least 6 times! I'm not exaggerating).

        On repeating: A repeat would be nothing exceptional. Around MP you'll hear a lot about making a second pass through material to let it sink in. Third Form is a big step up and assumes mastery of Second & First (as in 99% recall). Moving on before a student is solid can make Latin more painful, more procrastinated, and more discouraging. Yikes! It's not pretty. On the flip side, I'm in Third Form now and it's not only doable, but pleasant (!), now that I've got my Second Form down pat. He could be in that place as well this time next year. That's a great place for a rising 8th grader. I'm a rising 44 year old. Ha!
        Festina lentē,
        Jessica P

        2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
        12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
        10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
        7th • HLN & Home
        4th • HLN & Home
        Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

        Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks Jessica. All of that is reassuring, that repeating is worthwhile and not failure but mastery. I appreciate your insight!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
            Agreeing with Debbie above.
            I've personally taught SF the last two years and the second year things stuck in my mind and made sense in a way they had not on my previous passes (I think I've done the workbook at least 6 times! I'm not exaggerating).

            So that we don't all get discouraged that no student outside of a genius can move from SFL to TFL on schedule, can you talk about habits, procedures and circumstances that are beneficial for students to run through the Forms to arrive at TFL with 99% retention?

            Mama to 2

            Spring start MP1
            Summer start 5A

            Completed MPK, MP1 Math & Enrichment, MP2, 3A, 4A, SC B, SC C,
            SC1 (Phonics/Math), SC2's Writing Book 1

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by enbateau View Post


              So that we don't all get discouraged that no student outside of a genius can move from SFL to TFL on schedule, can you talk about habits, procedures and circumstances that are beneficial for students to run through the Forms to arrive at TFL with 99% retention?
              Haha! Mean culpa. So 99% is hyperbolic. However, in the first two lessons of Third Form Mrs. Lowe makes it very clear that you need to know your First and Second Form to move on. She also notes that you should take sufficient time to review before moving on to lesson 3. To repeat something Mr. Rob Lewis taught me long ago: there are 3 legs to the Latin stool to keep it balanced--grammar questions, vocabary, forms.
              A student who has done well through Second Form IS ready. If they have a summer break between Second and Third, then review over the summer to stay fresh. It doesn't have to be military grade, just small, consistent work.
              I'm my experience, the last units of First and Second are hard to retain because you learn them and then go on summer break. Those are likely to be the easiest things to forget (1st - 2nd conjugation verbs, esp. the 13 irregular principal parts, then 2nd - the passive endings in the present system).
              If a student has not done well in a previous Form that could be a reason to consider a repeat of some or all of the level. Another strategy would be to redo the last unit of the previous level as a review unit before moving on.

              ​​​​​Third Form is only scary until you've done it; then it's not. It's just like Horatius at the Bridge, reading the Divine Comedy, or homeschooling. ❤️
              Festina lentē,
              Jessica P

              2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
              12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
              10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
              7th • HLN & Home
              4th • HLN & Home
              Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

              Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

              Comment


                #8
                I've also done the SF workbook that many times because I am a homeschool parent, co-running a cottage school, and generally being a wife, mother, and friend with most of my time. My three oldest kids have done Second Form once. They have young brains and are full time students. It has been a great lesson to me expect it to be harder for me than them. Their pace always exceeds mine with retention!
                Festina lentē,
                Jessica P

                2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
                10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
                7th • HLN & Home
                4th • HLN & Home
                Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
                  ​​​​​Third Form is only scary until you've done it; then it's not. It's just like Horatius at the Bridge, reading the Divine Comedy, or homeschooling. ❤️
                  Hahaha. Tracy Lee Simmons' words are still ringing through my mind as I settle back into reality (laundry, IOWA, reading with a boy, a strange desire to reclaim my mom card by cooking...something...anything) and realize how far I've come from disparaging anyone who deigned to do this to the woman eating her humble pie while holding the front line of our battle encampment.

                  Thank you for talking me off my ledge. When I was delivering my kids, I hired a birthing doula. Outside of the excruciating pain, the one thing I remember was how she walked this incredibly fine line between telling me exactly how far I had to go or how much worse it would become and telling me what I needed to hear to have the hope to persevere! Your qualifying comments were like the Bradley class after the hospital tour.

                  Mama to 2

                  Spring start MP1
                  Summer start 5A

                  Completed MPK, MP1 Math & Enrichment, MP2, 3A, 4A, SC B, SC C,
                  SC1 (Phonics/Math), SC2's Writing Book 1

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Haha! Love it.
                    Festina lentē,
                    Jessica P

                    2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                    12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
                    10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
                    7th • HLN & Home
                    4th • HLN & Home
                    Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by enbateau View Post
                      Tracy Lee Simmons' words are still ringing through my mind as I settle back into reality...
                      You too, eh?
                      21/22 - 4th MP Year, Dad & Quadrivium Teacher
                      S - 7, 2nd MP @ HLN & Home
                      D - 5, K MP @ HLN & Home
                      S - 4, Jr K MP @ Home

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Beorn Brother in Christ, MP needs to bottle that speech and sell it like eau de parfum! It is the fragrance of victory!
                        Mama to 2

                        Spring start MP1
                        Summer start 5A

                        Completed MPK, MP1 Math & Enrichment, MP2, 3A, 4A, SC B, SC C,
                        SC1 (Phonics/Math), SC2's Writing Book 1

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by enbateau View Post
                          Beorn Brother in Christ, MP needs to bottle that speech and sell it like eau de parfum! It is the fragrance of victory!
                          Agreed. You just said it way better than I could have. I would drive back to Louisville today to go hear that plenary again. And tomorrow too.
                          21/22 - 4th MP Year, Dad & Quadrivium Teacher
                          S - 7, 2nd MP @ HLN & Home
                          D - 5, K MP @ HLN & Home
                          S - 4, Jr K MP @ Home

                          Comment


                            #14
                            My older son struggled with 2nd Form. He wasn't understanding the grammar concepts, so he took it with MPOA the following year. He completed 2nd and 3rd and got an A+ in both. He will start 4th this year. I agree with figuring out what the issue is. If it's a matter of vocab or memorizing forms, drill for the rest of the summer. Maybe take 3rd via MPOA. I have my older son keep his 3rd Form workbook in the car. When we go out, he and his brother review vocab and grammar Q's. We do 1 column of vocab from each of the 3 forms they've completed (2 forms for the younger one), and we conjugate a verb all the way through. Some days we decline a noun or adjective. It helps keep things fresh without being tedious. We only spend 10 minutes on it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Jen_NH
                              ​​​​​​​This is a great way to get consistent review without it being burdensome. Thanks for sharing this tip!
                              Festina lentē,
                              Jessica P

                              2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                              12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
                              10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
                              7th • HLN & Home
                              4th • HLN & Home
                              Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                              Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                              Comment

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