Classical conversations for community group? (not sure what topic to put this under)

[Amanda U]

Hi,

Could anyone describe the compatibility of using MP with a classical conversations group?

We enjoy using MP materials and lots and lots of books in general. But our family is really hurting on not finding a group. We've tried various homeschool co-ops and have managed to strike out on those or realize the study is not compatible with MP. And I don't really want to add a lot to what we're doing (study-wise). I haven't found any type of classical style homeschool help in the area. We've been here a couple of years, and I've struggled finding community for my children (and me . . .).

So would anyone share their experiences with classical conversations? I've toyed with the idea of using their program years before but MP simply is a better fit for our educational goals. But the social aspect is enticing!

Thank you.

[Michael]

Good afternoon Amanda,

While you await responses from other members who have used CC, you may find the following, older forum threads helpful. MP + CC is a very popular topic on this forum

• Classical Conversations with MP
• Classical Conversations and Memoria Press
• Anyone doing Classical Conversations?

HTH!

[ShaunaN]

We were part of CC for 5 1/2 years until a cross country move helped me leave . We loved the weekly community. It was not enough for me academically, especially as my kids got older, so we ended up jumping into MP cores this school year as a sort of trial to see if another curriculum would be a better fit. (It is!)

I had a friend in our CC community who seemed to pretty successfully use several MP products while doing CC, but her kids were still young (Foundations only). I think that’s probably the key: how old are your kids? If they are young enough to only do Foundations, it could work out, especially if you don’t feel pressured to drill the CC memory work too much at home. Once you have Essentials (4-6 grade) and Challenge (middle & high school) age students, I don’t really think you could combine CC and MP successfully.

The other consideration is financial. Is it worth it to you to pay for CC and MP? That may depend on the number of students you have, as CC tuition can add up very quickly.

Lastly, my experience with CC is that there is incredible pressure to be in leadership. I tutored several years and directed a campus for a couple years, along with hosting & training at summer Practicums. This definitely took away from my ability to homeschool well, as my personal involvement with CC was very much a part-time job. I found myself prioritizing other families’ school experiences over my own children. Huge mistake.

I think CC can be a good fit for some families. And honestly, I have also considered using it as a social experience only since our move just because of the loneliness, but I just can’t really justify the time & financial commitment (plus my oldest is in 5th grade at this point). You mentioned that you’ve tried other coops that weren’t a good fit. CC could be an okay fit with MP, but you would mostly be doing two totally separate programs that come at classical education from different perspectives. Also, most people who do CC don’t do it because it’s classical. I’ve forgotten the statistics, but the vast majority of families using CC care more about the community and Christian aspects. So, you would definitely be with families who don’t understand or care to learn about classical education (my experience was that families tend to either fall into a Charlotte Mason mindset or use something like Abeka at home).

Have you checked to see if there are any MP cottage schools near you?

[Amanda U]

ShaunaN I really appreciate your response! My oldest is in the second grade. I had checked out CC before and something didn't sit quite right with me - perhaps it didn't seem to fulfil the "classical" style of learning I thought I was researching. It really made me second guess that I should be using some box curriculum or (and what is really popular with homeschoolers I've met) is the very much student led learning whatever interests the child (which is ok to a degree, I guess). It did seem very business minded. I've checked out several communities and the leaders almost always seem really rushed and stressed. As for the program itself, often times the class projects/activities seem rushed, too in an effort to check all the boxes for the day. As for the financial, it's definitely a concern. I'd have to enroll my four year old, too only for the company's policies which seems silly when much of the learning I've researched encourages starting later rather than earlier. But I do like the art study, presentations, and group setting. I don't mean to sound so critical of CC! Clearly, I'm considering it. . . .

As for the nearby co-ops, I can't seem to find anything that fits with our family. For one, many of the nearby ones rely heavily on technology (requiring ipads) and social media. I suppose not for this discussion, but we don't want our children's images on any type of social media (for a variety of reasons). And for some reason, people are taken aback by that. And I'm not criticizing anyone who does utilize social media for whatever reason. It's simply not something our family utilizes. But apparently in this area, most people do utilize it. As for the ipads, our children don't require those things to learn. I'd much prefer heavier emphasis on books. Actual books. Also, a few of the co-ops really focus on core subject material like math and phonics. Which I think a little weird since children are on so many different levels in those subjects and co-ops typically meet once a week anyway. So I don't want to spend more money and time away from what we're doing that could be conflicting particularly in the area of reading/phonics and math. I really like the very methodical way MP addresses these subjects and we do a fine job at home (I hope!

And, yes, I would absolutely love, love an MP cottage school! But no go for here. The closest thing is a classical school that meets three days a week but doesn't use MP materials. The thing is they cost just a few hundred less than the full time classical school! And I don't want to "manage" my children's school work - which I think is what would happen at a school that meets 3x week. While I know I'm working more to encourage their independence, I'm still their teacher at this time. Just a few months ago, my husband had an opportunity to transfer to small area with the same company - but get this - we'd have two classical options for school!!!! One that met once a week and another that meets twice a week. But it would have required a pay cut. Yikes. Considering how limited our social circle and homeschooling options are here (we moved here almost two and half years ago) we've considered how we could make moving work. Things are weirdly pricier here than the city we moved from (one midwestern city to another in the same state).

I've tried to even start something in the area with what we're already doing; simply inviting others to join what were already doing - along the lines of the literature and enrichment studies. We had a lot of interest, even a church to host, but no one to officially join in. People seem to be looking for lego club, cooking class, play doh time, etc. I don't really want to devote a whole day each week away from school learning for a lot of less structured, play style learning. Maybe I'm too strict? I don't mind a book club, but I'd rather them read/study a quality book, not just "whatever the kids want to read" kind of thing.

[Meg]

I have a second grader and we are currently involved in a CC community solely for social reasons. This is our third year. The other homeschool groups that we have tried have been full of mainly unschoolers or "relaxed" homeschoolers and it just hasn't been a good fit from a social perspective for us. I try every year to find something else, but we have only met one other family that we have fit well with outside of CC. The main advantage of joining a CC community for us has been that 1) it is close to our house so we have the opportunity to see people outside of community day, and 2) it has been the only place where we have found people who are diligent about doing schoolwork and have high academic expectations. Socially, it has been a "win" for us.

You are spot on in your observation that something about CC just didn't sit well with you. It's not a great academic program. We have a small community, but nearly everyone does some other full program and uses CC for a social outing. Unfortunately, we are all using something different for our full program although I did convince one family to start using MP's Latin program. It is also very expensive for what you get. When I compare what we pay for a full core from MP to what we pay for CC, it is really frustrating. This year, I have been tutoring and my pay covers the tuition and supplies for my classroom, but if I were paying for more than 1 child, that wouldn't be the case after subtracting out taxes.

Also, keep in mind that each community is different, and the tone of the community is highly dependent on the director. We are fortunate that we have a community close by that works well for us, but you will need to keep that in mind if you decide to look at CC again.

Can you easily combine CC and a full MP core? Yes, at the foundations level, particularly if you do not put a big emphasis on CC's memory work. Since we do CC for purely social reasons, I have told my daughter that the CC memory work is optional for her. She chooses not to go over the CC memory work at home and I am fine with that. She has a great memory, so she has always been able to participate in the review games at CC without reviewing at home. Outside of the half-day community day, her only additional CC work is to choose a presentation topic. She is in a class with 5-7 year-olds, so the presentation is mostly show-and-tell at that age. It takes her about 10-15 minutes to decide what to do for presentation. My additional work is about 2 hours, though, since I am tutoring. It could easily take longer than that to prepare, but I am pretty focused when planning because I don't want to take any more time than that from my family.

At the Essentials level, it would be harder to combine, but still possible. Although, then the financial outlay is even greater. Our director allows families to participate only in the Essentials portion of the day without also participating in Foundations, so that would both keep the cost down and keep the community day commitment to a half day per week. I don't know if all CC directors would allow this, however, as our community is the only one that I know of that allows families to only do Essentials.

I think that it would be extremely difficult to combine MP and CC Challenge level. I don't know of anyone who is doing this, and from looking at both programs, it just doesn't seem like it would be workable for most people.

I wish that I could tell you that we found this great alternative to CC, but we just haven't found anything. We are going to keep being involved in CC for now, and keep looking for alternatives. We are heavily involved in youth sports, so that may be an alternative for the future.

[Amanda U]

Michelle,
Thanks for that! I'm going to look at the cost again. I'd love a group with high academic standards as you mentioned. But I've struck out looking for that for now. We've considered investing in a sports team - keeping the body healthy is important, too - but it's really costly here. We have toyed with the idea of karate. That's a higher monthly expense but meets twice a week and both my boys could do it. Of course, perhaps the last thing I need my active boys to participate in is karate! ha

[enbateau]

I read a statistic recently that the average American has less than one friend. You are not alone. The whole culture and ideas around friendship have radically changed. I don't know if you have had a chance to watch children interact lately, but it's horrifying how inept even public school kids are at socializing and play. My eldest went over to the house of a sweet, pretty, popular 5th grader to play a couple of weeks ago, and after asking 3 questions in a row relating to how school went that day, whether anything funny happened, and who her favorite teacher was, the kid gave one word answers to them all, and they spent the remaining 2.5 hours setting up Legos in absolute silence! I find that due to my kids' different interests, even when we find families at church or the various groups we plug into, there is very little socializing going on. As a former educator, I know there are many nonverbal cues my child can pick up on, but I find that it never quite fills the love bank of my child who is desperate for "talking" and exploring another girl's brain and heart. She just hasn't met a kindred heart.

We live in a multi-million plus person metro, so it's not a lack of numbers. It's often a lack of accessibility. Our neighborhood friends, a mix of public and private schoolers, are so invested in the rat-race of sports, dance, and swim that I get whip-lash trying to keep up. And when we do meet up, the kids are scattered, hyper, domineering, flitting from game to task to game with the attention span of a gnat and zero depth or substance. Even my friends with PS kids say their kids complain of being lonely and wanting to see their friends more (after spending 8hrs with kids all day)!

At the end of the day, and I don't know if your kids are this age yet, but I've had to have talks with my kids about putting mythical friendships on too high a pedestal. I told her that we will continue to pray and look for "godly friends" and companions, but that it can't become an idol. We adults are plagued by the same idolatry. It starts with: if only I could find a husband, if only I could get married, if only I had a better job, if only we could travel, if only I had a baby, if only we could afford...it never ends. We've plugged into numerous extracurriculars hoping to find friendships, but nothing has materialized outside of activities. I keep praying God's best for my kids, hoping that this time of pressing in to their family will strengthen their sense of independence, especially as this world becomes increasingly hostile to truth and liberty.

Be of good cheer. The Lord knows what you want before you ask, but keep asking for direction.

[KF2000]

Amanda U

I am so glad Meg was able to give you a good perspective on what it has been like to be a part of CC. I do not have that experience, but I can sympathize with your desire to have a community of like-minded home schoolers in your area to do things with. I think there are a lot of us, actually, who can sympathize with you!

We have had to move frequently with work. Making friends each time we have moved has always been a challenge - enough of a challenge over the last 19.5 years of marriage that it actually causes me to question whether homeschooling was indeed the best option. But the other choice would have been to be pull our kids in and out of schools all the time, having them always be the "new kids," and having them end up not bothering to make friends because they don't get to keep them (or some equally heartbreaking sense of discouragement.) In our case, it really seems to come down to "six of one, half dozen of another" if all I am considering is the ability to make friends and socialize. If that were my only standard of what is best for my kids, I would feel like a failure either way.

But thankfully, many great friends and wise minds (many right here on the Forum and at MP!) have supported us along the way, reminding us that making/having friends is not the top priority in what we are choosing by home schooling. We have so many other reasons that we are home schooling, that we have accepted a certain degree of loneliness as simply part of the package. Some of these priorities are:

1. The ability to imbue our faith into every aspect of our daily lives with our children.
2. The ability to be thoughtful, loving, compassionate and courageous in guiding our children's lives rather than to be in competition with the outside voices from schools, peers, and society.
3. The ability to foster the type of culture we want our children to have, one that is centered on truth, goodness, and beauty, and that actively pursues wisdom and virtue.
4. The ability to choose a curriculum that supports this culture rather than fights against it.
5. The ability to nurture our children's vocations - their calling by God to serve Him in this life in whatever capacity He has planned for their own happiness and ultimate salvation.

These are our key priorities in choosing to homeschool. When I list these out and think of them daily, it reminds me that having a community of like-minded friends doesn't make that top five. It's still a desire, and it's still something we recognize as ultimately being a part of living a balanced life. But the lesson this has taught our family is that many times in life we have to suffer through times in which things are not in balance at all, and there is nothing we can do about it - at least not now.

To share a bit of the long view with you, when kids are younger, they actually do fine with the amount of interaction they get by being in a sport, a club, or a weekly activity of some sort - even if it's just library time or a park day. They really do get by with that little bit. We worry about them a lot more than is necessary! The time that it gets to be hardest (in our experience) is when they are 14+. They are starting to feel confident enough to tackle something of their own lives, but still have years to wait until college. For us, we have see that regular baby-sitting jobs, a big-time hobby that might bring in some cash, or starting a job are really valuable choices at these ages. Similar to this is continuing to pursue a hobby/sport to a highly competitive level. What you are seeking here is the chance for them to begin to display competence and responsibility, while having the chance to interact with others at or near their ages, as well as with adults who teach them valuable life skills too. Farms and agribusinesses can hire 14 year olds, depending on your state laws, and kids can get work permits starting at 15 or even younger in some places. These are what we have found to be valuable substitutes to having like-minded home schoolers nearby. It can be hard to be patient, and to put up with the nagging worry that accompanies the loneliness. This is where prayer and support from my husband and MP friends has been so valuable to making it through.

I also wanted to sincerely encourage you that your idea of trying to start a small group is really good. Don't give up on that just because it didn't come together this year. It can take time, but communities can grow just by the seeds you plant from one year to the next. The first time I finally joined a group, it was four moms and we just did literature. That lasted a couple of years. Then I invited two other families to do Latin with me - just Latina Christiana. One of the other moms did enrichment for the younger kids. From the three of us, news of MP spread in our community of homeschoolers, and over the next several years, we grew to having over 20 moms using MP, either in part or with full cores - enough to finally warrant starting a cottage school. I loved that experience even though it only lasted a year before we unexpectedly had to move again. Point is, each year, give it a try and see what happens. Start asking folks in the early spring what they plan to do next year, and see if you can get some interest together. Keep asking so that they remember that you are the "MP mom." It may sit in their brains long enough, or they may hit a place where they realize they really want to try it, and suddenly you have something to start with. God is good, and He gives you what you ultimately need - always!

Hths!
AMDG,
Sarah

[jen1134]

Amanda U I tried to send you a PM, but it looks like they're not activated. Can you allow those? Or feel free to email me at seekingdelectare [at] gmail [dot] com

[Amanda U]

enbateau Thank you. It's a challenging season particularly since we moved here. The thing is, I had and made friends fairly easily where we lived (I didn't grow up there). But our family has struggled to make friend connections practically at all. Our neighbors don't speak to us, we've tried several churches (each over a period of months so we don't just a make a hasty decision), mom connection groups, co-ops, bible study groups, etc. We follow a particular denomination and church is important. But I'm surprised at the lack of connections! At one church that actually had children, we suggested a picnic or get together with the pastor for families with children when we realized the parents didn't seem to talk and know each other. It took a little while for us to realize that it was us they didn't talk to. We attended for months and couldn't get a meaningful conversation with another parent! And you're so right about everyone being so "busy." At the most promising co-op we joined, no one wanted to make friends outside of co-op! One mom told to me we couldn't be friends due to how far apart we lived . . uh, we already saw each other once a week, but we can't be friends?. . .Several other moms told me they had made the friends they need and they're so busy with activities they didn't know when they meet up for a playdate or activity anyway. I thought part of the joy of homeschooling is being flexible with people. You know, those beings made in the image of God? ha! A weird story about meeting another mom - we met at the library and were having a great connection. Then, when she realized I didn't have social media account, she quit talking to me! Seriously. Part of the struggle with me not making friends is that usually means my young children don't have friends either. And they were such social bugs before we moved. They ask frequently about going to a friend's house or having friends over. . .

I hope I don't sound so wanting. I would love for us to have/make social connections. God absolutely gives us what we need. But we do also feel the need for community. We aren't meant to live and be alone. This has been a trying year, and God has been gracious to us. Our family connections are fantastic and I love homeschooling them (well, most days)! We're not currently in a co-op though, so some type of social connection would be good. But sometimes not having a friend to talk can really wear on you. You see, we don't have any family either. My sons were disappointed no one was coming for Christmas supper. Although to be fair, I didn't cook the fancy roast since two family members were sick. And now the rest of us have it!

I have tried to put myself out there, inviting moms and families for playdates. I am totally blown away at the lack of return invites (although that's not why you reach out) and sudden cancellations. I'll think the get together goes well (I mean, you already have to like someone to exchange numbers, addresses, etc.) but nothing else comes of it. No return calls or texts. It's like I don't wear deoderant or something . . . .?

KF2000 Thanks - I appreciate the long view! Since we're not members of weekly club, I think I'll try that since we don't belong to a co-op this year. I love that y'all were able to start a group! I know I probably shouldn't give up on doing it again. It has been so hard to make connections here at all! At one church, I did have a couple of moms who were interested in MP. So I invited them to my house to check out the materials. At different time, they came over and looked and pretty much left. I was hoping to make a mom connection! I do think homeschooling is the direction for our family and we love using MP materials. The church had really hoped something would come of the homeschool group as well. But I can't make people come. A few moms were interested but wanted me to completely develop a class and structure before committing. While I would love that, I'm developing a class solely for their one child without some level of committment. It was disappointing but not overall surprising. The main homeschool support group is costly for what they provide (or don't). So I won't know even who to ask come this spring about what people are doing for homeschooling. Blah.

jen1134 I think I enabled messages. Ha! I would love to hear from you.

Thank you for the support ladies.

[DiannaKennedy]

I don't have a lot to add, but just wanted to hug my fellow MP mommas who chimed in here and had such sage, kind advice. I'm glad to count you ladies on my team.

Amanda U, I'm sending you hugs. Your post is a reminder to me to be thankful for the community that we have here, both locally and online.

Hang in there. I would lay this at the feet of Christ, and ask for guidance.

This may sound crazy, but since you're in the Midwest, have you considered coming to Sodalitas this summer? I think it would be time well spent.

[jejegreer]

We are currently doing CC and MP. We are doing CC solely for the social aspect. I have been unable to find any other group for my children to join in my small county. Doing Foundations along with MP is very simple. This is our 4th year. I don't require my kids to memorize anything from CC. We do listen to the memory work in the car sometimes. That is honestly the extent of what we do for foundations outside of the class because Memoria Press offers a true education whereas Foundations is quite silly.

This year my youngest is also in Essentials. She is also doing it solely for the social aspect and for the math portion which is good for her. She is a Simply Classical student, and there is no way that she can write with the IEW book that they are using this year, which is recommended for students in grades 6 through 8. Because this year of our Simply Classical program does not have its own writing component I have been using IEW Writing-Intensive A. Therefore my daughter understands the ideas of outlining that they are doing in Essentials. There is also absolutely no way I'm forcing her to memorize pages and pages of grammar charts, so the grammar part is completely useless except that she has been exposed to sentence diagramming and has a very basic idea of how to do it. We don't do that work outside of CC either which makes us very popular, as you might imagine. ?

My oldest is in Challenge A. Fortunately Challenge A uses Henle Latin and the Memoria Press teaching guide for Henle Latin is outstanding. It does not quite go at the same pace as CC because it goes a little slower at first and a little faster in the second term. This means that we are a little off of where the rest of the group is and she hears about things in class before we get to them. Despite what everyone will tell you, Challenge is actually incredibly easy. My daughter can do all of the work for it in 2 short days. Therefore there is plenty of time for MP since we omit the MP science, English grammar,. and spelling. The only real issue is with writing. We did the CC writing in the fall, but I am seriously considering switching back to MP for the spring and just dealing with the Director being annoyed about it. I do not know if we will stay in Challenge next year since I want my daughter to move on to the second MP Henle Latin 1 guide, do the MP science (which seems to be great starting in 8th grade), and do the MP writing.

I don't know that it is worth it to pay for Challenge while doing MP since the class is so small. It costs around $1600 plus about $500 of books. I think that I would rather spend that money on MPOA classes.

That said, I think it is WELL worth the money to pay for Foundations for the social aspects for both children and Mom. Since I don't worry about memorization I look at it as a time to socialize and do some art and science experiments. My kids learned a little bit along the way.

I am very unsure about Essentials. I detest MP English Grammar Recitation. My older daughter learned all of her grammar from Essentials. While I didn't make her memorize all the charts, she did learn all of the important things on them, and learned how to apply them. She is neuro-typical. For my child with learning disabilities the grammar in Essentials is too hard. It is intimidating her. The writing is also too hard. My older daughter found IEW way too easy. The math portion for both girls is fun and makes them enjoy math. It also gives the girls more time with their peers, and we all tend to stay for half an hour to an hour after Essentials and the kids play together.

If you have any questions I am happy to talk to you. My email is [email protected].

[Holly Dolly]

I cannot speak to anything before Challenge A, but when the homeschool co-op I founded fell apart (largely because it was extremely diverse and international, and many people left the U.S.) we moved to CC as the nearest MP cottage school was too far away. In Challenge A, a number of students were using different math and latin curricula. Not a problem really. I had used Cambridge with my kids, so they were used to a whole-to-part approach, but made the switch to Henle just fine. Other students carried on with their own Latin programs. I would recommend at least keeping up with the vocabulary (which initially seems very de bello Gallico oriented with quite a bit of Church Latin vocab.). Math, one could just track along with the concepts and use any program. It becomes more difficult with English, as much of the day is spent discussing the novels. While nobody is forced to write the papers, the children do write them and share them. A kid might feel left out and different at a time where they are broadening their horizons and beginning to individuate. We use MP during the summer to supplement in subjects I believe are important.

Challenge B is far more rigorous than A. In Latin the children zip through the first third of Henle and extend into the second third. The Mock Trial strand is pretty amazing (my kids are in challenge B this year, and I sat in on some sessions last year. They prepare a court case and argue it before a judge in an actual court, and our group has lawyers come in to prepare the defense and prosecution. The class broke into 2 teams and each team did not know what the other did. For that alone, it will be well worth the year. They have to learn how to introduce arguments, evidence, examine and cross-examine witnesses, etc. The logic they use (Canon Series) is based on algebraic expressions of logic (symbolic logic). The students do both introductory and intermediate logic. I had logic in college and pretty much everything I covered in year 1 was covered in these texts. In Challenge I they move to MP Logic which appears to be traditional logic. Many logicians dispute over which system is better. However, I have found utility in both. Many linguistic language courses rely on symbolic logic, whereas philosophy, history and theology courses tend toward a traditional approach.

All that being said, I think that CC is highly dependent on the rigor of the community and the tutors (or whatever they call teachers who formally aren't called the teachers). We have a number of different communities in our metropolis, and they vary greatly. It would be possible to supplement with MP and create a hybrid creature, but I am not sure that it would be worth it to do ONLY MP in a CC setting. The student wouldn't be tracking with his/her peers in the upper levels.

Just my 5c.

Holly

[Amanda U]

I really appreciate all the responses and time you took to write them! We may hold off joining in the middle of the year. Turns out it'll cost $700 for this semester not including nursery costs or additional supplies. Hmm