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  • Mom2mthj
    replied
    Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post



    Personally? Here is what I think MP ought to consider as the sequence for the Moderated Homeschool tracks (Debbie's Non Science Major track from above). It IS the sequence in traditional public schools now as the non-honors track:

    9th: Intro Physics
    10th : Biology
    11th: Chemistry
    12th: Science of choice, but most students would benefit from cal based physics here. Even my Business Major son was *required* to take calculus for his degree. Seeing the material in high school has tremendous value.


    And there is NOTHING wrong with this track.

    It is impossible to "skip" this step in the sequencing of math and science for any student, regardless of what "track" you think your child is on. The child's progress in math, with the highest possible level of understanding, will be the limiting factor in reaching the higher levels of science. At the higher levels, science IS applied mathematics.


    Amen.

    My daughter is in 10th and is roughly following the track you mention above. I have disliked the physical science in 9th plans, but always assumed that they would move to intro physics in 9th once lesson plans were available. She will also be taking calculus and advanced physics even though she *thinks* she wants accounting or classics. One doesn’t really know their path in 10th grade :-). Now I just have to figure out where to have her take chemistry. I want a good lab component, but would rather not turn my kitchen into a chemistry lab (although I do have black soapstone countertops that are very reminiscent of a chemistry workbench). Toying with a semester of precalculus in the fall and a semester of chemistry at the local community college during the winter term.

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  • Jen (formerly) in Japan
    replied
    Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
    When Biology is moved to 9th, Introductory Physics is omitted.


    Personally? Here is what I think MP ought to consider as the sequence for the Moderated Homeschool tracks (Debbie's Non Science Major track from above). It IS the sequence in traditional public schools now as the non-honors track:

    9th: Intro Physics
    10th : Biology
    11th: Chemistry
    12th: Science of choice, but most students would benefit from cal based physics here. Even my Business Major son was *required* to take calculus for his degree. Seeing the material in high school has tremendous value.


    And there is NOTHING wrong with this track. The student has seen "the big three" in high school, and will have earned three lab-based science credits. The fourth year becomes "student's choice" depending on goals and outcomes moving toward high school graduation.



    This makes for a more difficult science sequence 9th-12th, because Introductory Physics is a golden opportunity to learn how to use significant digits, write lab reports (with tables and graphs embedded), and apply algebra to real science problems. Biology has a great deal of content and requires good reading and critical thinking / test-taking skills. Many 9th graders are not quite ready for these challenges, especially if increasing difficulty in Latin, Greek, English, and math at the same time. Introductory Physics provides a wonderful bridge year for most students.

    Our chemistry teacher finds that students who take Introductory Physics in 9th do better in chemistry than those who take biology in 9th, because they have this extra year of practice with the skills mentioned above.


    Yes, chemistry teachers have long recognized this and try to push for this sequence in science departments. As I said above, the lynch-pin of the entire high school math/science sequencing is to have the student cognitively ready to APPLY Algebra in high school chemistry. Strong math students *could* take Algebra II concurrently with chemistry, but many students can't: they just can move from seeing multiple variables in math class to seeing them in chemistry and applying the knowledge to the multi-step word problems of chemistry. In my last classroom, the B students in Alg II who were concurrently enrolled in chemistry were lucky to be getting a C in chemistry. Many of them were desperate to be done with the course because they had maxed out their abilities in math, so moving to thermodynamics in the 4th quarter, for instance was a death knell for their final grades in the course. So sad and so preventable.




    I don't really see a disadvantage to delaying biology until 10th, unless you have a super-star like Jen (formerly) who will be ready for college science courses in 12th grade. My advanced physics students do better if they have already completed pre-calculus before advanced physics, so I prefer they take adv. physics senior year with calculus. Adv. Physics can be taken concurrently with precalculus, but it is more difficult.

    Ah yes, my oldest can never be used as a measuring stick for others' progress in math and science. I try to share my experiences with him to highlight how a homeschool mom *should* creatively solve problems at home, not how to sequence her own kids. Heavens, no.

    But what is highlighted from Cindy's remarks is essentially what I am suggesting: math NEEDS to be considered far and away as the higher priority before selecting an appropriate science course. And math cannot simply be forged through, with imperfect understanding. It is the relationships within mathematics which allow for the multistep problem solving processes of chemistry, which then allow for the calculus based concepts of physics.

    It is impossible to "skip" this step in the sequencing of math and science for any student, regardless of what "track" you think your child is on. The child's progress in math, with the highest possible level of understanding, will be the limiting factor in reaching the higher levels of science. At the higher levels, science IS applied mathematics.






    Jen




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  • Cindy in Indy
    replied
    When Biology is moved to 9th, Introductory Physics is omitted. This makes for a more difficult science sequence 9th-12th, because Introductory Physics is a golden opportunity to learn how to use significant digits, write lab reports (with tables and graphs embedded), and apply algebra to real science problems. Biology has a great deal of content and requires good reading and critical thinking / test-taking skills. Many 9th graders are not quite ready for these challenges, especially if increasing difficulty in Latin, Greek, English, and math at the same time. Introductory Physics provides a wonderful bridge year for most students.

    Our chemistry teacher finds that students who take Introductory Physics in 9th do better in chemistry than those who take biology in 9th, because they have this extra year of practice with the skills mentioned above.

    I don't really see a disadvantage to delaying biology until 10th, unless you have a super-star like Jen (formerly) who will be ready for college science courses in 12th grade. My advanced physics students do better if they have already completed pre-calculus before advanced physics, so I prefer they take adv. physics senior year with calculus. Adv. Physics can be taken concurrently with precalculus, but it is more difficult.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by makinmemories
    Michael Thank you for that response, PDF, and insight from Cindy! You are saying that in the future the 9A core will include the Holt Biology? I think this would put us where we needed to be by then.
    Correct. In fact, I believe both our regular and accelerated tracks will have Biology in 9th, or at least Physical Science will eventually be removed from 9th in both tracks. I don't know the specifics yet. Sorry!

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  • Cindy in Indy
    replied
    Originally posted by momgineer View Post
    Here is my dream of how MP would chose to do science in the future. Base it around middle and high school science.

    6th grade: Tress and Tiner Bio (like the current 6A),
    7th: Novare Physical Science,
    8th Novare Earth Science (with the understanding that 7th and 8th can easily be switched to accommodate co-ops).

    They would need to make it clear to students on the standard track that they will need to pick a science to drop from either Mammals, Astronomy, Insects, or Birds/medicine. Just like the accelerated track skips Mammals, the standard track would have to skip something. All of those are covered more in depth later so its ok.

    Then in high school offer three tracks: non science/math bound, life science/medical bound, and engineering/physics bound.

    The non science bound would have:
    9th Novare Introductory Physics in 9th for students who had algebra in 8th or biology for students who are just taking algebra,
    10th biology (or IP if they did bio in 9th)
    11th Novare General Chemistry
    12th could have no science or do a science of interest.

    For life science/medical bound:
    9th Novare Introductory Physics (same math caveat as above),
    10th Honors level biology,
    11th Novare Advanced Chemistry,
    12th would be either AP/college Chemistry or biology or and Anatomy/Physiology course or another advanced biology course.

    The engineering/physics bound would be:
    9th biology (or honors biology)
    10th Novare Advanced Chemistry with the Novare Advanced Chemistry Supplement (which is needed if not doing IP first),
    11th Novare Physics: Modeling Nature
    12th would be an AP/college chemistry.
    I haven't been following this thread for a few days, but wanted to chime in with this input. Debbie's three tracks are well-organized, but I want to emphasize that a student who intends to major in any life science, physical science, pre-med, pre-dentistry, pre-veterinary, etc. in college should definitely take Novare Advanced Physics in high school. Introductory Physics (algebra-based) in 9th is wonderful, but it should be followed with Advanced Physics (trig-based) in 12th. Advanced Chemistry, Biology, A&P will arrive in college, but so will college physics, and they won't be prepared for that with "only" algebra-based physics. This is the path we recommend for students headed for a STEM major (including life science) in college:
    9th Novare Introductory Physics
    10th Biology
    11th Novare Chemistry
    12th Novare Advanced Physics: Modeling Nature

    Anatomy and Physiology may be substituted for Advanced Physics for students not planning to pursue a STEM major.
    Last edited by Cindy in Indy; 03-03-2019, 06:46 PM.

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  • momgineer
    replied
    Your math sounds spot on. Algebra in 8th is standard for the top 25% math students. If you do algebra 2 in 9th as per MP path, you will be perfectly set to do chemistry in 10th.
    regarding Tiner books. Keep in mind there are tons of science curricula out there. You don’t do both Novare and Apologia Physical science. You pick one. Same with Tiner. The Chem, Physics, Astronomy year is physical science. Pick either Novare (more standard modern physical science) or Tiner (based more on historical development of ideas). No need to do both. Pick either Novare Earth Science (a very intense modern study) or Ti we (more of a history book with some cool earth science ideas developed). No need to do both. The key is to cover at an Intro level of life, earth and physical science between 6-8. MP offers two paths to do this- either Tiner or Novare (Novare does not have their middle school life science yet). Holt science has similar- they have a number of semester books and you mix and match 6 in those three years to cover it. Apologia has their own way of covering it. You don’t need to do all books from all authors. Simply pick one.

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  • momgineer
    replied
    As far as “tracking”, I think each family already does this to an extent. We know our kids. We know their passions. We know our abilities and our kid’s abilities. Most families customizes high school to an extent- choosing electives, picking which science or history to take. I always aim for the “typical” bio, chem and trig physics in high school along with college chem in 12. But if I had a kid really interested in biology I would make room for college biology or A/P. If I had a kid not planning to go to college (I do- my current 9th grader), then I’d take a slower science track. I don’t plan to have her do trig physics unless she suddenly shows an interest. She is doing Intro physics, bio and chem.
    My idea with the “tracks” was to be sure parents were informed what each track led to. That way, a parent with a kid with “The Knack” (old Dilbert cartoon about future engineers) won’t mistakingly start with physical science and end up not being able to get in the required science classes needed by colleges. Even if MP only offered the IP, bio, chem, science elective path it would at least be a fairly standard high school path rather than starting with physical science and losing a whole year. It sounds like MP is trying to figure out how to offer what HLS does and still have it be homeschool friendly which, when it comes to science, is quite a challenge. Most parents aren’t able to teach to the level of a certified high school science teacher. Nor do they have lab equipment at home. It’s no wonder it is taking them so long to figure out high school science. That has to be the hardest subject to “adapt” to homeschooling. Just keep in mind that you don’t have to exactly follow the curriculum manual. If I remember, one of MP’s biggest concerns with high school in general was making it easily adaptable. They offer extra lit books that aren’t in a “core” so parents can customize. They make the material usable by multiple grades so families can choose which history to do each year or when to do different electives like logic and government. They already offer tracks for math- at least they encourage families to use R&S 7 and delay prealgebra if the student isn’t ready. I imagine that once they get 11th and 12th and 12A out, it will become much clearer what all the options are and high school will appear much more customizable. It’s just that right now they have so few options available, it appears as if there is one and only one way to do high school. Even at HLS, students track into different levels of math and science based on ability and interest. Same with electives

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post
    Tanya or Michael can comment on why Novare's Physical science is listed as a 9th grade text on the 9M core

    Good afternoon everyone,

    I'd be happy to help, but the reasoning is neither mine nor Tanya's; it's Cindy Davis'! In short, Physical Science is an option for 9th grade, specifically for students who struggle with science. For average to strong science students, we would all agree that Physical Science should ideally remain an 8th grade course. Here's the longer version in Cindy's own words:

    Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
    Physical Science is better suited for 8th grade, leaving Intro Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Anatomy and Physiology (or Vector Physics) for grades 9-12. Physical Science was placed in the 9th grade program initially because it was ready to go. As the other lesson plans are written, Physical Science will move to 8th grade, where it is a better fit. As noted on the pdf, Earth Science and Physical Science *can* be completed for high school credit, and *may* be chosen for students who need more support.
    I've attached to this forum post the 2018 version of Cindy's pdf that she mentioned. It continues to list Physical Science as a possible alternate in high school while omitting it from high school in the standard and accelerated science tracks. As Cindy noted, once we have released more upper-school science programs, we will be able to adjust our full packages to more closely reflect the tracks in this PDF. In fact, the first planned change is to remove Physical Science from 9th and replace it with Holt Biology now that we are finally ready to release our Biology guides! The change won't be made immediately as first we want to make sure all of you are happy with the new program, but if/once you are, the package will change.

    HTH!
    Attached Files

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  • KF2000
    replied
    I think another think that is important to keep in mind is the difficulty in truly addressing these high school level sciences in a home environment. Yes, there is the question of what each child is capable of doing, but there is an equally challenging question of what each family can offer a child in the way of guidance and help. Personally, even with my experience of being pre-med in college, it’s still hard to do science at home. To pursue the most advanced track possible would require expensive classes we cannot afford. To pursue a still-advanced track requires time and effort to study very much on their own that then eclipses the amount of educational capital they have available for their other subjects too. But if the child can do it, great. If the parent can help more, great. But it’s just not always the case.

    I think what MP is hoping to do is to offer a reasonable path to homeschoolers that is doable for the situations of most families. I think there are some changes that could make it better without making it too hard (the physical science in 9th grade is an example of that) but the overall goal is to provide a solid path that will help a majority of young people.

    AMDG,
    Sarah

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  • makinmemories
    replied
    Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post


    I promise you that no parent has "tracked" an 11 year old. The best course is to keep putting quality curricula in front of the student, demand mastery, then get out of the way.

    An illustration. My oldest told me when he was 11 yrs that he wanted to "blow things up" when he grew up. I was a little mystified since he was working several grade levels ahead in nearly all subjects (that was the year he took Algebra I and Physical science... with 98% averages). In my mind, I was thinking "What degree uses dynamite? This kid is going to be the death of me." <pun>

    My strategy with him was the above. At the end of 4 years at MIT (Aerospace Engineering), he took a job with the US Navy. He has top security clearances and he blows things up for pay (both of which were part of his "dream job"). There is no way I could have "tracked" this kid at age 11 yrs. His reality was far richer and more interesting than anything I could have imagined back in those days.

    For the record, I have an 11 year old right now. Same.

    A classical education will prepare your student for many possibilities. But, as far as "knowing" what those are when the child is so young, unless you know of a working crystal ball, you may as well sit back and enjoy the ride.

    Jen, still enjoying the ride. I have one kid currently Ring Shopping. Exciting!

    Ha! Your stories about your son always make me smile!

    I completely agree that you can not track an 11 year old. That's where the 3 different tracks have me question how a parent does decides the path (given the luxury to have this insight very early on). Generally I do not fret about this because I just do whatever is next in the MP core and that is that. If in a few months though, I need to plan on something that is different than what is in the A track, I need to look at that now.

    Your insight and experience has been invaluable to me. Thank you!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jen (formerly) in Japan
    replied
    Originally posted by makinmemories

    The official HLS science track for 9th-12th seems to be what you listed for the engineering/physics bound track. Will this be offered in a core package (or is it already and I have completely misunderstood)?
    No, those options are not in the current homeschool packages. It is understood that tailoring toward Engineering is a family decision for that student. It will be up to you to craft that path for your child.




    Jen

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  • Jen (formerly) in Japan
    replied
    Originally posted by makinmemories

    Also, how would you decide which track your student would need to be on if you had no idea what their future plans were. We have not educated with an end career goal or university in mind as that has seemingly been contrary to what we have gleaned about the purpose of education. So am I to assume that you survey their strengths and interests and set them up on the most robust path possible so that many doors will be open to them later on?

    I promise you that no parent has "tracked" an 11 year old. The best course is to keep putting quality curricula in front of the student, demand mastery, then get out of the way.


    An illustration. My oldest told me when he was 11 yrs that he wanted to "blow things up" when he grew up. I was a little mystified since he was working several grade levels ahead in nearly all subjects (that was the year he took Algebra I and Physical science... with 98% averages). In my mind, I was thinking "What degree uses dynamite? This kid is going to be the death of me." <pun>

    My strategy with him was the above. At the end of 4 years at MIT (Aerospace Engineering), he took a job with the US Navy. He has top security clearances and he blows things up for pay (both of which were part of his "dream job"). There is no way I could have "tracked" this kid at age 11 yrs. His reality was far richer and more interesting than anything I could have imagined back in those days.

    For the record, I have an 11 year old right now. Same.


    A classical education will prepare your student for many possibilities. But, as far as "knowing" what those are when the child is so young, unless you know of a working crystal ball, you may as well sit back and enjoy the ride.





    Jen, still enjoying the ride. I have one kid currently Ring Shopping. Exciting!


    Leave a comment:


  • Jen (formerly) in Japan
    replied
    Debbie,

    LOVE IT. You've been using the Novare books (whereas my 10 year gap bonus baby is just now rounding the track in 6th), so I can tell that you have your finger on the pulse of Novare. I look forward to using the books soon.

    Your breakout of the three science tracks is brilliant. I would Like that, give your reputation points, etc, if it were possible in this forum format. Excellent advice! Michael might need to stickie this post!


    I'm with you on MP probably misunderstanding the difference between "Physical science".... at best, a middle school course no matter who the publisher is... with "Physics" as a 9th grade option. I'm sure we will be hearing from Tanya or Michael soon. Suffice it to say that college administrators who see a student taking Physical science in 9th will be underwhelmed.


    The other point to be made, and we beat this one pretty regularly over on the high school forum is this: thoughts on the sequencing of science through high school have actually changed in the last 20 years. And why is that? Because MATH. It became more and more obvious to science teachers that the lynch-pin of high school science is the intersection of math knowledge and science, and that intersection was high school CHEMISTRY. Students really needed to be concurrently enrolled in Alg II (or even better, past it), to be able to... wait for it.... APPLY ALGEBRA to chemistry. Chemistry is essentially an applied math course. Students need to be able to read chemistry "word problems" and understand how to set up complicated, multi-step algebra problems in a chemistry class. And, the "traditional math sequence" in high school is Alg I, Geometry, Alg II. That means that chemistry would need to be placed third in the science queue at the earliest for most students.

    The Department of Defense high schools have long moved to using an Intro Physics course as a 9th grade option so that the students have that year to continue to take math. The next course in the sequence is then Biology, only so that students can take more math and develop cognitively. I worked in a DoD high school a few years ago: the AP Physics and Chem teachers all understood that high school math courses were placeholders until the student cognitively matured to get to the point of understanding: can the student read a science word problem, then apply math out of the math classroom? That ended up looking a *whole lot* like a math-based school chemistry class. Then following that could be AP Chem, or AP Physics courses (there are 2), or other AP courses.


    Novare obviously feels that way, too.



    I was answering a science question on another post. My recommendations for the rising 7th grade mathy/sceincey boy were these:

    7th: Novare Physical

    8th: Novare Earth, interest based, or PHYSICS

    9th: Biology

    Etc


    That looks a whole lot like your Engineering bound student's sequence, doesn't it?



    I'd love to insert the cliche about Great Minds, but I'm fairly certain that Debbie out-classed us all on this three track sequencing thing and deserves full credit here.






    Jen

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  • momgineer
    replied
    Here is my dream of how MP would chose to do science in the future. Base it around middle and high school science.

    6th grade: Tress and Tiner Bio (like the current 6A),
    7th: Novare Physical Science,
    8th Novare Earth Science (with the understanding that 7th and 8th can easily be switched to accommodate co-ops).

    They would need to make it clear to students on the standard track that they will need to pick a science to drop from either Mammals, Astronomy, Insects, or Birds/medicine. Just like the accelerated track skips Mammals, the standard track would have to skip something. All of those are covered more in depth later so its ok.

    Then in high school offer three tracks: non science/math bound, life science/medical bound, and engineering/physics bound.

    The non science bound would have:
    9th Novare Introductory Physics in 9th for students who had algebra in 8th or biology for students who are just taking algebra,
    10th biology (or IP if they did bio in 9th)
    11th Novare General Chemistry
    12th could have no science or do a science of interest.

    For life science/medical bound:
    9th Novare Introductory Physics (same math caveat as above),
    10th Honors level biology,
    11th Novare Advanced Chemistry,
    12th would be either AP/college Chemistry or biology or and Anatomy/Physiology course or another advanced biology course.

    The engineering/physics bound would be:
    9th biology (or honors biology)
    10th Novare Advanced Chemistry with the Novare Advanced Chemistry Supplement (which is needed if not doing IP first),
    11th Novare Physics: Modeling Nature
    12th would be an AP/college chemistry.

    Leave a comment:


  • momgineer
    replied
    Originally posted by makinmemories View Post




    momgineer is this what you are suggesting and which publishers are you recommending for 9-11th?

    6th= Trees/Biology

    7th: Novare Physical Science

    8th: Novare Earth Science

    9th: Intro to physics

    10th: Biology

    11th: Chemistry

    12th: Choose between Trig physics, astronomy, or anatomy


    OR: advanced student and strong in math:

    9th: biology

    10th: advanced chemistry

    11th: trig physics

    12: an AP course or a community college science


    I know there isn’t a one size fits all and we all choose what is best for our families but I am curious as to the pro’s and con’s of each these paths. I know nothing about any of this so I need those who have gone before to direct and guide! If Novare is a 7th grade book why is it listed in the 9A science track?
    Yes, that is exactly what I am recommending. I would recommend Novare for high school (but maybe use the MP version of Holt Biology since Novare does not have biology yet). The path I recommended is the path recommended by Novare themselves. I will let MP answer why they use a 7th grade book in 9th. My guess though is they misunderstood how Novare books are set up. You see, in most high schools the sequence in 9th- bio, 10th, chem, 11th- physics, but some schools start with physical science in 9th because they recognize that many students won't get to trig based physics in high school and at least they will have the physics in physical science in 9th. That is Novare philosophy, but they change it up a bit and call 9th grade "Introductory Physics" (IP)and focus on only physics and not chemistry and physics (which is what most physical science courses do). Novare has an advanced track and their advanced 9th grade is called "Accelerated Studies in Physics and Chemistry" (ASPC)and is similar to but more advanced than many high school physical science classes. Prentice Hall has a high school physical science book that I have used. Both the PH book and the Novare books include a lot of math in the 9th grade physical science books. It is not complicated math, just basic algebra in single variables, but the courses are heavily math based. The PH book focuses on both chemistry and physics and has much math particularly in the physics section. Novare Intro Physics focuses solely on physics with the understanding the student will probably not do trig based physics or at least not until senior year or college. The Novare ASPC is very similar to the Intro Physics book but with some chemistry chapters added to aid in biology and honors level chemistry. According to Novare both IP and ASPC are 9th grade courses. IP is standard track and ASPC is advanced track. I wonder if perhaps MP got mixed up and thought Physical Science (which is a 7th grade book and has very little math and is solidly a middle school level book) was the standard version of the ASPC. It is not. Physical Science is a middle school book. IP is the standard 9th grade book and the accelerated version is ASPC. The Novare physical science book is below the level of IP, ASPC and the Prentice Hall physical science book because it is not intended for high school.
    If you have a student who had a very solid pre-algebra in 7th (like the MP course) and you anticipate them doing well in algebra in 8th, you could consider doing IP or ASPC concurrent to algebra in 8th. That is what I intend to do with my son. He is doing physical science in 6th, life science in 7th, and will do either IP or ASPC in 8th then so the advanced track of bio, advanced chem, trig physics and college science in 9-12. But I only recommend that for strong math students!!! In reality, my son will have covered much of algebra in 7th since he is a half a year ahead in math. Average to above average students might get tripped up with the math in IP in a concurrent algebra class. Only solid A level math student should consider this.
    To clarify about Novare a bit. They have two middle school books which can be used in either 7th or 8th- Physical Science and Earth Science. They will be adding a life science to the mix for 6th-8th grade. Then they have two tracks using different books for high school. They have Introductory Physics, Chemistry and are soon releasing a Biology for the standard track. Students could then choose either trig physics, Anatomy/Physiology, astronomy or college level chemistry or bio in 12th. For the advanced track they have Accelerated Studies in Physics and Chemistry, Advanced Chemistry and Physics: Modeling Nature (which is their trig physics) and I presume they will also have and advanced biology or just use the regular biology. So, technically, their advanced track looks different than what I originally quoted above. I would start with bio in 9th for an advanced science student so you can get to trig physics in 11th which leaves a year to do college science in 12th. You could do this by doing IP or ASPC in 8th or simply skipping it since you would fully intend to do trig physics in 11th and technically don't need algebra physics first.
    Clear as mud?

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