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**KikaMarie** · 01-31-2019, 02:40 PM

No insights here, but I'm in a similar situation with my almost 12-year-old and looking forward to reading what others have to say.
Monica

**SJeffery** · 01-31-2019, 03:57 PM

I have the same question. My sixth grade daughter is doing 5th this year. I have kept her at grade level in math and was thinking of doing math and science at 7th grade and keeping the others the same. I wonder if that will be an issue as she nears high school.

**Nerdmom** · 01-31-2019, 06:22 PM

Hi there!
If it were me, I'd probably go with option C. It might look something like this:

Latin & Math: as they are
Classical: Famous Men of the Middle Ages and of Greece are conducive to a one-semester pace.
Christian: I'd probably do CS III well, rather than try to combine III and IV, but that might depend on what the rest of your religious ed looks like.
Lit: pick 2 from 6th and 2 from 7th to do well (with lit guides), assign the other books as summer reading for enjoyment/exposure
Modern: Geo II & Am History

Best of luck as you decide! I'm sure others will chime in with more ideas for you.

**Jen (formerly) in Japan** · 02-01-2019, 09:32 AM

Hi Cathy,

So, one of the things I regret most about my first decade of homeschooling was that I was obsessed with exposing my kids to "everything". I sonlighted, which already goes at a break-neck pace with no time to review, recite, or master. With Sonlight, the student is expected to absorb, like a sponge. Although that did happen in a general sense (along with all the fun we had doing read alouds), my kids didn't KNOW anything at the end. Rather there was a "general sense" of things.

As we all know, the MP system is designed to "know what you know", even if that is not "everything" there is to know.

So, my advice (hard won!) would be to NOT jump ahead, trying to squeeze in or double up anything. In fact, I am going to suggest that if you actually need to cut, you do a combination of 7th and 8th, so that 9th will be a smooth transition. I disagree that any of the Famous Men books make good summer reading, unless you truly want to fall toward the Sonlight paradigm: a general sense of things without any hooks formed to hang further knowledge.

In addition, the 6M Core package has been fantastic, with material the student wouldn't otherwise see again until 11th grade. If you look closely, 7th and 8th both cover ancients, so that would be a better place to combine. By trying to combine 6th and 7th, you have to *choose* between differing ideas, whereas if you are choosing between 7th and 8th, you can eliminate the overlap.

It appears you already choose your own math, science, and most of Language Arts. You are really only asking about Latin, Classical, Christian, Modern, and Literature. I would personally suggest you stick with the 6M choices for those subjects (they are meshed exceptionally well), but drop your idea for the Greek Alphabet, unless there is some compelling reason (for instance, your family is Greek). You owe it to the student to execute First Form *well*. If you try to cram in the Greek Alphabet, it will end up as exposure only. Even I, with my 3rd time through the Forms, can't seem to add Lingua Angelica with any regularity. The Forms are already very full.

Then, the following school year, choose among those same subjects between the 7th and 8th packages, if that helps you all to feel more "caught up". HOWEVER, by then you many decide that your child is placed extremely well to thrive and succeed. If you needed more, there is Enrichment embedded in a Core package that many of us can barely touch (especially in Classical and Literature). Also, aren't you planning to add more science and math? There is a point where you can't "one up" every single subject in homeschool. It becomes a perilous plate-spinning act which topples at the first sign of Real Life.

I hope that didn't further muck your waters, but helped in some small way.

Jen

**KF2000** · 02-01-2019, 10:35 AM

Cathy,
I have struggled with this sort of thing so much myself - especially now having had two high schoolers, and trying to prepare their transcripts to reflect what they have done that I want colleges to see that they have done. It's really hard to include something that you child did in seventh or eighth as high school level material. Usually you can get away with a math or science that someone took in 8th, plus if they are in a higher level class of those, it's pretty easy to conclude that they must have already done the lower levels. So I am sure you will work that out with what he is planning to do.

Personally, I want to be able to include these great classical readings in their list of high school work, so I have ended up tweaking our plan a bit to accommodate that. So from experience, the main point I would stress to you is that it really comes down to what you want on their high school record, and back your plans down from there. Figure out what is left for these remaining two years before high school. But then choose...don't try to cram. You will end up feeling like you are doing it "just to do it" and it will not be that worthwhile in the end.

I would also try to finish the pathways you have started rather than skip or cram there either. If he has done Geography I - great. Have him do Geog II next year, and Geog III the following year. Finish strong. (But keep that in mind when you are planning to add sciences...Geog III is actually quite time-consuming.)

Same with Christian Studies. If he has CS III to do next, do it. And then CS IV becomes that much more valuable because it is a review of everything he has done. It's okay to skip the 8th grade book listed for Christian Studies. It's a great book, but personally, I would take a solid review of the entire Bible over that because it solidifies several years' worth of work. But that's a choice. You could think that books I-III are a good enough study of the Bible, and you would like a year for him to have a nice introduction to the big picture of Christianity. Then the 8th grade book becomes your own "better" choice.

For literature, this is rather simple: you have two years. Pick the books you most want him to read. Or that he most wants to read. Or do equal picks between you. I would make sure to pick at least one Shakespeare, so that it prepares him to be ready to read a lot more of that in high school. And make sure to get at least 2 guides for the 8th grade year that have the upper school format (pre-grammar, grammar, logic, and rhetoric sections) so that he is used to them for high school.

As a personal example, for us, I have elected to finish out the Famous Men program. My kids do the 6th grade FMMA, then 7th grade FMOG, then 8th grade Famous Men of Modern Times (not scheduled in a core). This way we have time to complete the entire Geography course too - 6th grade Geog II, 7th grade Geog III, and 8th grade we use that slot to put the 200 Questions from American History. I choose not to do the entire 13 Colonies guide because that doesn't fit. It makes that slot too heavy. But they way I have it, everything balances nicely.

This allows us to do more of an "Ancients" year in 9th grade. My plan is to do the Mills' books for Ancient World, Greece, and Rome; and then use the Classical Studies books as Literature in place of anything else. We came to this plan by making adjustments of how things were going, considering that our kids really like studying languages and music and those take a lot of time, and it seems to work for us. But it might not work for your own family, and you might come up with something of your own that works even better. It's just one idea.

The thing I had to realize was that MP has given us a really good model, but that it is still possible to tweak that model, using the resources they offer us. It allows us to make different content areas as heavy one year as we want, or as light as we need because they really have a lot of math, science, or languages on their plates.

Gotta run!
hope that helps!
AMDG,
Sarah

**Michael** · 02-01-2019, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by KF2000 View Post

The thing I had to realize was that MP has given us a really good model, but that it is still possible to tweak that model, using the resources they offer us. It allows us to make different content areas as heavy one year as we want, or as light as we need because they really have a lot of math, science, or languages on their plates.

Cathy,

I want to second everything Sarah wrote, but especially this last paragraph. There really are multiple high-school paths to take, even within the world of classical education. In fact, we considered not releasing any high school core packages because we didn't want families to feel that they HAD to follow a specific path. We believe our path is a good one, but we know it isn't the only one. Please feel free to customize as Sarah has done. "Classical education is the inculcation of wisdom and virtue through a facility with the liberal arts and a familiarity with the Great Books" (Martin Cothran, "Classical Education is More Than a Method"). How this education is achieved will vary from family to family, especially in high school.

HTH!

**tanya** · 02-01-2019, 03:24 PM

Hi, Cathy.

You have gotten good advice here. I just wanted to add a note. If you choose to do FMMA in 7th and FMG in 8th, don't worry about pushing the Iliad and Odyssey into 9th grade. That is a perfectly fine time to do it. And then you have the Aeneid in 10th and 2 more years for The Divine Comedy and Cicero. Think what your student will have done by the time he graduates - so much more than the majority of students. As Sarah said, if you look ahead to high school, you will see that there is plenty of time to accomplish everything you want for him. My other thought (and this is different than the path Sarah laid out for you, but not necessarily better) is that you can skip Geography II if you want to do American history next year. When you do Geography III, you will just have to work a little harder on the map work because a lot of it will be new to your student. Some of these decisions are really a matter of personal preference. Everything you have laid out is a good plan, so whatever you choose won't be wrong. But I know you will be glad to have a decision made. I remember feeling so relieved when I had my plan laid out (until I just turned my children's education over to Cheryl Lowe and didn't have to worry about it any more!).

Tanya

**TheAttachedMama** · 02-08-2019, 11:12 AM

Thanks so much for all of the help and advice. (And Jen, we "sonlighted" in the early years too. So I can relate to what you said!)

I've been thinking about things, and wanted to propose the following for his 7th and 8th grade years---please give me any feedback you have.

7th:
Latin (1 hr daily): Second Form Latin + Continue Lingua Angelica
Math (2 hrs daily): AOPS intro to Algebra (algebra I equivalent)
Science (1 hr daily): High School Biology
Literature (1 hr daily): Adam of the Road, King Arthur, Hobbit, Trojan War
Composition and Grammar: English Grammar Recitation III + IEW Theme book (middle ages? or US History?)
----
Afternoon Rotation (2 hrs daily)
Days 1 & 3: Christian Studies III & Famous Men of Middle ages (fall)/Famous Men of Greece (spring)
Days 2 & 4: Geography II and Lighter American History (Listening to Hakim Story of US Audiobooks) + 200 Questions

8th:
Latin (1 hr daily): Third Form Latin
Math (2 hrs daily): Finish Intro to Algebra (Algebra II equivalent) or Geometry
Science (1 hr daily): Physics
Literature (1 hr daily) Eighth Grade Literature Set
Composition and Grammar (1 hrs daily): English Grammar Recitation IV + IEW Theme Book
----
Afternoon Rotation (2 hours daily) (Not sure how the following is scheduled well enough to pencil it in yet.)
Classical: The Book of the Ancient Greeks Set + Iliad and Odyssey Set
Christian: Christian Studies IV
Geography III and Finish American History (Hakim Audiobook and 200 questions)

(I've included time estimates based on how long things seem to take him this year....with time added for petting the dog, making tea, losing his pencil, joking with his brother, etc.)

My concern with the above schedule is cramming both Famous Men of Middle Ages and Famous Men of Greece into his 7th Grade year. I really am not sure how that could be done and done well so that they actually retain everything from the books. (I say this based off my experience teaching FMOR only.) I am also mourning not memorizing Horatius at the Bridge. But I had to cut something. sniff sniff. In 8th grade, I am worried about Geography III. I've heard it is quite a step up in terms of work load.

The problem is that my son wants time to work on science and math. (Math, even if you are decent at it, just takes a lot of practice. That translates to time. Same thing with science.) His mathcounts coach is really encouraging me to allow him to advance through science at a quicker pace in middle school. BUT---She also does not understand my vision for a classical education. She thinks we are doing WAY too much literature and history.

My questions are:
1) Would it be possible to skip Famous Men of Greece and just start with The Book of Ancient Greeks in 8th Grade? Or is it better to have a foundation?
2) OR, should I just keep him a year behind in Lit/Classical/Christian Studies? I would say just do that, but it doesn't necessarily feel any lighter. It is still probably just as much time and work to do those well a year behind.

**Jen (formerly) in Japan** · 02-08-2019, 01:01 PM

Cathy,

Are you certain that he can earn high school credit for Biology and Physics if taken in middle school? That wasn't allowed when my older kids were that age. It was one of the main reasons I had to get creative with my oldest's placement. At that time, only Alg I and Geometry and foreign language I and II were "allowable" high school credits which could be added to a high school transcript. Anything else was considered "mommy grade padding", especially if the student had an A in the class.

Yes, you can skip FMoG. My own opinion would be to choose one classical study, but do it well. None of them are light-weight if they are executed as written.

Jen

**TheAttachedMama** · 02-08-2019, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post

Cathy,

Are you certain that he can earn high school credit for Biology and Physics if taken in middle school? That wasn't allowed when my older kids were that age. It was one of the main reasons I had to get creative with my oldest's placement. At that time, only Alg I and Geometry and foreign language I and II were "allowable" high school credits which could be added to a high school transcript. Anything else was considered "mommy grade padding", especially if the student had an A in the class.

Yes, you can skip FMoG. My own opinion would be to choose one classical study, but do it well. None of them are light-weight if they are executed as written.

Jen

I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to high school transcripts or credits or anything. And honestly, I don't even know where to start with my research. I've got some Lee Binz book about transcripts that I got for free...but even that might be out of date. I am going to be honest with you: High school completely FREAKS me out.

I am not even thinking about high school credits at this point in time, I'm just trying to put together my Memoria Press order in time for free shipping.

BUT---to answer your question (now that you know I don't know what I am talking about ha ha )---I wasn't planning on giving him high school credit for science classes taken in middle school. My plan was just to have him continue on with more advanced science classes as he was ready for them. (Possibly duel enrollment or AP so I have something to back up any grades given at home, etc.) Same thing with math. I am assuming that if he starts his Freshman year with Geometry or Algebra II, they are going to assume that he has taken Algebra I. (Although I had one homeschooling mom tell me that she somehow listed classes taken before 9th grade on her transcript without giving credit. )

ETA: I forgot to ask: If I *were* to skip one of the Greek History books would it be better to skip FMOG or The Book of the Ancient Greeks Set? I chose FMOG simply because I think the pre-written lesson plans would be nice.

**Jen (formerly) in Japan** · 02-09-2019, 07:48 AM

Hi Cathy,

For the high school stuff, you should probably start posting on the 9-12 forum. There are folks who mostly hang out there, then there are those of us who only *wish* we could hang out there (ha, ha,... joke, sort of. There are 9.5 years between my "youngests").

Briefly this: you will get many conflicting answers as to what "colleges will accept" because it seems that there is always "some" college who will allow something non-standard, which muddies the waters as to what *should* be accepted.

1. Stay conservative. We homeschool. If a student's transcript starts looking too good to be true, his application will be dropped before the transcript is even looked at. Homeschoolers are susceptible to "Mommy grades", at least in the eyes of public officials.

2. The public school standard for obtaining high school credits before high school is: Algebra I, Geometry, Foreign Language I, Foreign Language II. Once in a while, a single science class is allowed: physics without calculus, although that only seems like a good idea for the engineering bound students whose transcripts will then be loaded with many math and science AP courses anyway.

3. On the contrary: most reputable schools are sticklers to seeing the earlier classes on a transcript because they want to see the grade. Also, the grades for high school courses taken before high school for credit ARE calculated into the student's high school GPA. You basically can't have it both ways: the credits are IN, and therefore calculated into the GPA, or they are not.

As for getting smart on high school, yep, it's time.

On the actual courses listed above for 7th and 8th, please take this with kindness, but you really are "cramming", trying to overview/survey too much. If you really want your child to thrive in ways mental, while growing up and adding other interests, I advise deciding on ONE course from each category, then asking your child to do each course WELL. There is a lot of talk that flies about recommending "read that one over the summer", but in the end, only a slow, careful reading of each text will produce even a prayer of long term retention. I have learned THAT lesson the hard way.

And let me remind you that you are already subbing in many of your own components, which is cool. But, even with the MP courses you plan to use, FESTINA LENTE. Make haste slowly.

So, let me suggest something here:

7th: Use the 6M lesson plans which cover the Middle Ages, SF Latin, and the Literature which pairs perfectly with the set. Sub in the math, and if you wish, the composition you desire. IEW has newly reformatted the Middle Ages set, which looks very well done. Use a Novare middle school science course like Earth or Physical. Now you have "one in each subject" plan that is obtainable and has the MP "zen" where subjects overlap, reinforce, and continue to resurface which helps the student make valuable connections. We are doing the 5M set this year, so I can testify to that. This set is very well constructed to reinforce the knowledge for the student.

If you really feel it must be done, have the student read the literature from the 7th grade level over the summer, either for fun, or choose 1 or 2 guides to help follow along. *Maybe* survey the American history facts, if desired. There is a flashcard set with American history which can be worked into the following school year for retention, if you are willing to schedule it for that purpose.

8th: Jump to the SEVEN ACCELERATED package, swapping out the Latin for TF Latin, and wherever else needed for leveling correctly. MP is perfectly fine with customizing levels up or down within categories, but often this needs to be done via phone call. Add math. Add IEW (if that is your desire): the student could circle back to IEW's Ancients, but having done that, I feel it's actually more simplified than Middle Ages, so my recommendation would be to use the American history set. Add Novare science: Physical or even Physics if you are going to try for the above obtaining of that credit.

A final thought on using "high school" science in middle school. IF you are convinced that this will be the best choice for your student (rather than going the Novare middle school route), then stick with Apologia, which no one in the actual science community considers rigorous enough for an engineer. My oldest MIT kid plowed through the Apologia sequence for high school science before age 14 with a 98% on average. There is very little rigor in those courses. As long as you don't try to claim those courses for high school credit, they could function as overview courses for him.

I hope this helped in some small way.

Jen

**jen1134** · 02-09-2019, 08:57 AM

I think Jen meant to recommend 6M — that’s the one that has Middle Ages, etc.

One caution for a younger student: the maturity of the content ramps up in 7A — the gods are doing a lot of impure things in Iliad and Odyssey.

**Jen (formerly) in Japan** · 02-09-2019, 09:52 AM

Oh yes, Jen, that's right! I was typing early in the morning. I think I will edit that in my post. Thanks for the catch.

**Mom2mthj** · 02-11-2019, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post

Hi Cathy,

For the high school stuff, you should probably start posting on the 9-12 forum. There are folks who mostly hang out there, then there are those of us who only *wish* we could hang out there (ha, ha,... joke, sort of. There are 9.5 years between my "youngests").

Briefly this: you will get many conflicting answers as to what "colleges will accept" because it seems that there is always "some" college who will allow something non-standard, which muddies the waters as to what *should* be accepted.

1. Stay conservative. We homeschool. If a student's transcript starts looking too good to be true, his application will be dropped before the transcript is even looked at. Homeschoolers are susceptible to "Mommy grades", at least in the eyes of public officials.

2. The public school standard for obtaining high school credits before high school is: Algebra I, Geometry, Foreign Language I, Foreign Language II. Once in a while, a single science class is allowed: physics without calculus, although that only seems like a good idea for the engineering bound students whose transcripts will then be loaded with many math and science AP courses anyway.

3. On the contrary: most reputable schools are sticklers to seeing the earlier classes on a transcript because they want to see the grade. Also, the grades for high school courses taken before high school for credit ARE calculated into the student's high school GPA. You basically can't have it both ways: the credits are IN, and therefore calculated into the GPA, or they are not.

Jen

Jen,

The whole transcript bit with regard to middle school courses is so confusing. There is SO much conflicting information out there. My daughter took algebra 1 at home, 3rd and 4th form with MPOA, and Greek 1 with Lukeion all in 7/8th grade. All of these subjects she plans to take for 4 years in high school so she doesn’t really “need” the credit, but algebra I was thinking to mention in the comments box. Honestly, her grades were A’s, so I don’t care if they count, but I was trying to be conservative. Part of the problem is FastTranscripts that HSLDA sells (?) and Hillsdale recommends for homeschool candidates doesn’t even provide a spot for 8th grade credit to be worked into the calculation as far as I can tell without having purchased it.

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