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    Second Form or Henle?

    Last February during the homeschool doldrums I had the bright idea to switch Latin curriculum from FF to Latin Alive for this year. It went well for my son at first, but he is now into the 9th chapter, and things are going badly. Anyway, he used to score in the mid 80's to 90's on FF quizzes and tests and let me just say those scores have taken a serious nosedive with LA. I'm not going to make him continue with it, so would you recommend moving into SF or Henle? He's in 8th grade and learns very quickly. And you may tell me, "I told you so," because I deserve it.
    DS, 13, 8th grade
    DS, 10, 5th grade

    #2
    Re: Second Form or Henle?

    I could have written this post when my son was in eighth grade. We pushed ourselves down the same path. About half way through Latin Alive, I realized that the translation had become a guessing game for me, and sheer torture for my son.

    I originally changed curriculum because I felt that the forms were too slow for an older student, and I panicked. He (now a sophomore) and I are happily working our way through Third Form and actually LEARNING Latin. I do not regret returning to the form series for high school Latin one bit!

    I definitely prefer the mastery of grammar that the forms ensure. Hope that helps!

    Paige

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Second Form or Henle?

      Originally posted by Tired mom View Post
      I could have written this post when my son was in eighth grade. We pushed ourselves down the same path. About half way through Latin Alive, I realized that the translation had become a guessing game for me, and sheer torture for my son.

      I originally changed curriculum because I felt that the forms were too slow for an older student, and I panicked. He (now a sophomore) and I are happily working our way through Third Form and actually LEARNING Latin. I do not regret returning to the form series for high school Latin one bit!

      I definitely prefer the mastery of grammar that the forms ensure. Hope that helps!

      Paige
      Thank you, Paige, it does help. I changed because my son constantly complained about FF being so boring. A month or so after I bought LA and read through it, I felt like I had made a mistake, but decided to try it anyway. Oh well. I'm still learning.
      DS, 13, 8th grade
      DS, 10, 5th grade

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Second Form or Henle?

        Honestly, I don't think there is a bad choice here. Either option will be a good next step. A few questions though, because one might be a better choice depending on your/his plans.

        1) What is your goal with Latin? Simply taking it every year? Trying to finish the grammar? Getting into translation work during high school?
        2) What is your student's motivation level with Latin?
        3) Are outside support options on the table, Online Academy? Local tutor or tutorial? Or will it just be the two of you? Any friends or family with Latin background?
        4) What, if any, high school language requirements are you working to fulfill?

        Based on what you said about him I'm wondering if Henle might be just the thing. It has the review he'd need to get back into the swing of mastery on the noun and verb basics. It's heavily slanted toward military/battles/war themes (perhaps appealing?). MP has guides for Henle 1 and even new flashcards. Michael (or others) can chime in on what pacing would be appropriate and what would be a satisfactory goal for this school year if you change now.

        The Forms are excellent, of course, and perhaps what he needs is a more brisk pace if you go this route. Second Form turns up the heat and Third even more so. If it's challenge he wants, it's just around the corner. To start in Second I'd recommend taking the First final exam. Anything that's weak can get shored up, then dive into Second.

        HTH!
        Festina lentē,
        Jessica P

        SY2019-2020 · 8th MP Year
        @ Home, HLN, & MPOA
        S · 10th, MPOA Henle 3
        D · 8th
        D · 5th
        S · 2nd

        Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Second Form or Henle?

          We did the same thing (Latin Alive should come with a warning label). We went into Henle and my dd liked it. We did add the Magistra Jones printable pages in addition to the MP materials. Either would be a good choice. If you plan to add a living language for high school, I would stick to the Forms.
          Bean. Long time MP user.

          DD- 9th grade aerospace enthusiast. Using a mix of dual credit, online and classical materials for 2019-2020.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Second Form or Henle?

            Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
            Honestly, I don't think there is a bad choice here. Either option will be a good next step. A few questions though, because one might be a better choice depending on your/his plans.

            1) What is your goal with Latin? Simply taking it every year? Trying to finish the grammar? Getting into translation work during high school?
            2) What is your student's motivation level with Latin?
            3) Are outside support options on the table, Online Academy? Local tutor or tutorial? Or will it just be the two of you? Any friends or family with Latin background?
            4) What, if any, high school language requirements are you working to fulfill?

            Based on what you said about him I'm wondering if Henle might be just the thing. It has the review he'd need to get back into the swing of mastery on the noun and verb basics. It's heavily slanted toward military/battles/war themes (perhaps appealing?). MP has guides for Henle 1 and even new flashcards. Michael (or others) can chime in on what pacing would be appropriate and what would be a satisfactory goal for this school year if you change now.

            The Forms are excellent, of course, and perhaps what he needs is a more brisk pace if you go this route. Second Form turns up the heat and Third even more so. If it's challenge he wants, it's just around the corner. To start in Second I'd recommend taking the First final exam. Anything that's weak can get shored up, then dive into Second.

            HTH!
            My son disliked first form and last year we switched to henle using the new MP guide to units 1-5. He really liked it - quite a bit was review, but the new stuff wasn’t all at the end, it was spread out throughout the year. This year the plan was to continue with Henle, but we joined what was to be a cottage school with hired teachers who knew what they were doing. The other boys were ready for third form so I convinced my son to give it a try. The meeting location didn’t work out quickly enough so it just turned into a three family co-op with yours truly as the Latin teacher - ugh! My son was ok with switching when he found the rest of henle covered the equivalent of third and fourth form. I found out that he didn’t really have the new content like passive voice truly memorized. I think I would vote for the forms, but with either choice you REALLY need to monitor that recitation gets done.

            If you do go back to the forms, I don’t know that I would jump in with the final. I think the finals in those test booklets might be considered child cruelty. I think the first form one is like 7 pages long. Maybe get the first form review booklet and spend a few weeks hitting the highlights? I did sign my son up for the MPOA for third form so *I* could watch the class with him before trying to cover it at co-op. One interesting thing to note is the MPOA tests are MUCH easier than the paper test book (all that vocabulary in the first lesson was matching) and for third form they only do unit tests and no final exam.
            Dorinda

            For 2019-2020
            DD 16 - 11th with MPOA(AP Latin), Lukeion (Greek4 & Adv. NT Greek), Thinkwell (Economics and Chemistry), plus Pre-Calculus, American G’ment, Early Church History set, and British Lit
            DS 14 - 8th with MPOA(Fourth Form), CLRC(Intro Lit and Comp), plus Algebra, Field Biology, Classical Studies 1
            DS 11 - 6th with Right Start Level G online class
            DS 6 - 1st with Prima Latina

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Second Form or Henle?

              Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
              Michael (or others) can chime in on what pacing would be appropriate and what would be a satisfactory goal for this school year if you change now.
              Sugarbelle,

              If he starts now, your son will still probably be able to finish Second Form Latin this year, especially if he can move more quickly (since he wants to) while still mastering the material. If you choose Henle I, I'd aim for Units 1-5 in your son's case.

              HTH!
              Michael
              Memoria Press

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Second Form or Henle?

                Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
                If you do go back to the forms, I don’t know that I would jump in with the final. I think the finals in those test booklets might be considered child cruelty. I think the first form one is like 7 pages long.
                This comment reminds me of my first year at HLS. I was in 8th grade and Cheryl Lowe was my Latin teacher. HLS was still transitioning from a cottage school to a full-time school, so I had Latin once a week on Tuesdays from 8-11, or 8-12 if we didn't have choir (11-12) that week. At the end of the year, she gave us a final that took the entire class period. It was amazing to see how much I'd learned in just one year, but also exhausting. We've come a long way since then!
                Michael
                Memoria Press

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Second Form or Henle?

                  Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
                  Honestly, I don't think there is a bad choice here. Either option will be a good next step. A few questions though, because one might be a better choice depending on your/his plans.

                  1) What is your goal with Latin? Simply taking it every year? Trying to finish the grammar? Getting into translation work during high school?
                  2) What is your student's motivation level with Latin?
                  3) Are outside support options on the table, Online Academy? Local tutor or tutorial? Or will it just be the two of you? Any friends or family with Latin background?
                  4) What, if any, high school language requirements are you working to fulfill?

                  Based on what you said about him I'm wondering if Henle might be just the thing. It has the review he'd need to get back into the swing of mastery on the noun and verb basics. It's heavily slanted toward military/battles/war themes (perhaps appealing?). MP has guides for Henle 1 and even new flashcards. Michael (or others) can chime in on what pacing would be appropriate and what would be a satisfactory goal for this school year if you change now.

                  The Forms are excellent, of course, and perhaps what he needs is a more brisk pace if you go this route. Second Form turns up the heat and Third even more so. If it's challenge he wants, it's just around the corner. To start in Second I'd recommend taking the First final exam. Anything that's weak can get shored up, then dive into Second.

                  HTH!
                  Hi Jessica,

                  Thanks for your advice and to answer your questions;

                  1. My goal for him in Latin is to go through this year and maybe next year. I would like him to do Lingua Latina, but not until he learns more grammar.
                  2. His motivation level with Latin is at a zero, but he is 13 and not motivated to do a whole lot, except pursue his own interests, such as composing music (a very worthy ambition).
                  3. I was hoping the Latin Alive DVD's were the ticket to me not having to do everything, so I would like another DVD curriculum. He actually said the teacher on the DVDs was helpful and her instruction was clear. There are tutors in my area, but that would have to wait until next year, so it would just be the two of us. My friends here who do Latin are all in Classical Conversations.
                  4. My state requires two years of a foreign language, but I'm going to require three. He wants to learn German and drop Latin and I'm okay with that, but obviously not yet. I'm trying to figure out what the best route is.
                  DS, 13, 8th grade
                  DS, 10, 5th grade

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Second Form or Henle?

                    Originally posted by bean View Post
                    We did the same thing (Latin Alive should come with a warning label). We went into Henle and my dd liked it.
                    Absolutely! It should come with a warning and a guarantee.

                    Warning: The chance of this program not working is very good, unless you are a Latin magician.

                    Guarantee: You will become extrememely frustrated at wasting A LOT of money on this program.
                    DS, 13, 8th grade
                    DS, 10, 5th grade

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Second Form or Henle?

                      Thanks, everyone. I decided to order Second Form for the DVD instruction and maybe speed it up so we can finish by the end of the school year.
                      DS, 13, 8th grade
                      DS, 10, 5th grade

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Second Form or Henle?

                        Best wishes! For me, the hardest part of Second Form is the week on prepositions (Lesson 16? you really have to memorize them and know the difference!) and then adding the passive voice near the end of the year. Those stems and endings can't be a jumble. You have to master them.
                        Festina lentē,
                        Jessica P

                        SY2019-2020 · 8th MP Year
                        @ Home, HLN, & MPOA
                        S · 10th, MPOA Henle 3
                        D · 8th
                        D · 5th
                        S · 2nd

                        Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Second Form or Henle?

                          Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
                          Best wishes! For me, the hardest part of Second Form is the week on prepositions (Lesson 16? you really have to memorize them and know the difference!) and then adding the passive voice near the end of the year. Those stems and endings can't be a jumble. You have to master them.
                          Amen!

                          Good luck on second form. You can do this!
                          Dorinda

                          For 2019-2020
                          DD 16 - 11th with MPOA(AP Latin), Lukeion (Greek4 & Adv. NT Greek), Thinkwell (Economics and Chemistry), plus Pre-Calculus, American G’ment, Early Church History set, and British Lit
                          DS 14 - 8th with MPOA(Fourth Form), CLRC(Intro Lit and Comp), plus Algebra, Field Biology, Classical Studies 1
                          DS 11 - 6th with Right Start Level G online class
                          DS 6 - 1st with Prima Latina

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Second Form or Henle?

                            Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
                            Amen!

                            Good luck on second form. You can do this!
                            Thank you, Dorinda. I appreciate it!
                            DS, 13, 8th grade
                            DS, 10, 5th grade

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Update: Second Form or Henle?

                              I'm so happy to have come to my senses and returned to the MP Latin forms. As I mentioned in my OP, my son was bombing the majority of his Latin Alive quizzes, but I am thrilled to report he got a 95% on his first quiz back with MP!
                              DS, 13, 8th grade
                              DS, 10, 5th grade

                              Comment

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