Not enough time!

[Sugarbelle]

I am running into a time dilemma with my 8th grader and am wondering how on earth I'm going to fit Classical Studies in. It hasn't worked so far and we are one month in. I decided to drop the Greek history study and replace it with FMOR and keep him with his younger brother, so that has thrown things out of kilter with the MP plans. Does anyone else have to push The Iliad and Odyssey into high school? I really want him to study it this year, but I have to be realistic. Do you think trying to add it is too much with this schedule?

Here's his weekly schedule:

MP Literature every day
MP FMOR (with his 5th grade brother) 1 day
MP Geography II 2 days
MP Christian Studies plus The Archaeology Book from Master Books 1 day
CLE Math
Rainbow Science 3 days alternating with Tiner's Exploring the World of Biology
Fix It Grammar 4 days
Latin 5 days
Online writing course 2 days a week
Building Spelling Skills 5 days
Composer study 1 day (if time)
Art 1 day (if time)
MP Classical Studies ???

Extra-curricular:

Piano lessons
Trumpet lessons
Orchestra
Trail Life
Bible Quiz Team

[pickandgrin]

Re: Not enough time!

Sugarbelle,
What level of Latin is he in? Wondering if you can shift things around a bit on workload, but knowing that level of Latin is important. My first reaction would be to reduce or eliminate the extra grammar work if he is far enough in Latin. My other thought would be to reduce some of his science depending on how difficult the other program is. Another option would be for him to do book of the ancient Greeks this year as his classical studies with the aim of doing Iliad and Odyssey all school year next year at a slower pace. The Iliad and Odyssey classes are completely appropriate for 9th grade and I know several 9th and 10th graders who have taken them. As for famous men of Rome, that could simply be a read-aloud. I don't see any reason to make him go through that as a study at his age. if he was having trouble with book of the ancient Greeks then a reading of famous men of Greece beforehand might help smooth the path. He has a pretty robust schedule of academics and extracurriculars. By adding in Latin and classical studies I believe a few of the normal studies are going to have to be reduced or eliminated or there will not be enough time. There is definitely a sane and lovely path forward for you but I do think it will need some reorientation.

I apologize for all the lack of capitalization! Voice to texting you this. 😊

[KF2000]

Re: Not enough time!

Sugarbelle,

I think flexibility here is key. Once these kids get to their high school years, it is so hard to fit them into a one-size-fits-all package, especially when many of these kids have developed a strong interest in a single direction (music, languages, sports, etc) that means a great deal of time spent on a single thing to the exclusion of others.

We hit that wall with my son at 8th grade. His music practice, combined with his interest in languages, meant that something had to give in his day. What we ended up doing was using the Classical Studies readings as his literature studies for ninth grade. He read Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid over the course of last year to the exclusion of the regular literature package. Not ideal, as I would have preferred to have him DO IT ALL, but the fact that he studies both Latin and Greek for at least an hour each day, and practices piano for an hour or more, meant that we had to readjust. Then this year (sophomore) we chose to do the full lit (Medieval year) in place of continuing with Classical studies. We will still try to get the Greek plays in at some point, but I am just taking it a year at a time right now.

This is the reality with a child who is not as interested in literature/classical studies as he is in cars, music, languages, math, science, etc. My daughter was at the other end of the spectrum and knocked everything on the list out with ease. She kept to the plan beautifully. But I cannot expect every child to be a cookie-cutter, you know? I love that MP gives us so many options, from which we can tailor a high school program that will challenge each child in the ways they need to be challenged, while also giving them a lot of what interests them too. It's a win-win no matter how your child is wired.

I see the recommendations as being the same as the younger years: keep Latin as the center; do as much math and science as your child can manage; make sure you do Composition; and then fit in as much of the remaining "good stuff" as you can.

AMDG,
Sarah

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

Sugarbelle,
What level of Latin is he in? Wondering if you can shift things around a bit on workload, but knowing that level of Latin is important. My first reaction would be to reduce or eliminate the extra grammar work if he is far enough in Latin. My other thought would be to reduce some of his science depending on how difficult the other program is. Another option would be for him to do book of the ancient Greeks this year as his classical studies with the aim of doing Iliad and Odyssey all school year next year at a slower pace. The Iliad and Odyssey classes are completely appropriate for 9th grade and I know several 9th and 10th graders who have taken them. As for famous men of Rome, that could simply be a read-aloud. I don't see any reason to make him go through that as a study at his age. if he was having trouble with book of the ancient Greeks then a reading of famous men of Greece beforehand might help smooth the path. He has a pretty robust schedule of academics and extracurriculars. By adding in Latin and classical studies I believe a few of the normal studies are going to have to be reduced or eliminated or there will not be enough time. There is definitely a sane and lovely path forward for you but I do think it will need some reorientation.

I apologize for all the lack of capitalization! Voice to texting you this. 😊

Thanks for your advice. Don't kill me, but we switched to Latin Alive this year after one year of FFL and I must say it has been a positive change for him. He really enjoys both sciences, so I don't want to drop those. We began the Book of the Ancient Greeks, but dropped it because doing a second year of Greek history after FMOG was going to be a nightmare for me to enforce. He doesn't ultimately decide what he's going to study, but I realized another year of Greek history wasn't going to be worth the fight, so I decided to give him a lighter history year along with his brother. He never studied FMOR since we just began MP last year. I think I'm just going to have to hold off on Classical Studies.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

Sugarbelle,

I think flexibility here is key. Once these kids get to their high school years, it is so hard to fit them into a one-size-fits-all package, especially when many of these kids have developed a strong interest in a single direction (music, languages, sports, etc) that means a great deal of time spent on a single thing to the exclusion of others.

We hit that wall with my son at 8th grade. His music practice, combined with his interest in languages, meant that something had to give in his day. What we ended up doing was using the Classical Studies readings as his literature studies for ninth grade. He read Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid over the course of last year to the exclusion of the regular literature package. Not ideal, as I would have preferred to have him DO IT ALL, but the fact that he studies both Latin and Greek for at least an hour each day, and practices piano for an hour or more, meant that we had to readjust. Then this year (sophomore) we chose to do the full lit (Medieval year) in place of continuing with Classical studies. We will still try to get the Greek plays in at some point, but I am just taking it a year at a time right now.

This is the reality with a child who is not as interested in literature/classical studies as he is in cars, music, languages, math, science, etc. My daughter was at the other end of the spectrum and knocked everything on the list out with ease. She kept to the plan beautifully. But I cannot expect every child to be a cookie-cutter, you know? I love that MP gives us so many options, from which we can tailor a high school program that will challenge each child in the ways they need to be challenged, while also giving them a lot of what interests them too. It's a win-win no matter how your child is wired.

I see the recommendations as being the same as the younger years: keep Latin as the center; do as much math and science as your child can manage; make sure you do Composition; and then fit in as much of the remaining "good stuff" as you can.

AMDG,
Sarah

Thank you, Sarah. I think this is what I need to hear; that I have freedom to do what works best. I look at the catalog and think I must do all the literature, classical, and Christian studies as mapped out by MP each year, but I don't think it's feasible along with his outside interests. I don't have an intellectual scholar here who is really into his schoolwork. In fact today I told my husband, "I quit! I'm signing this kid up for online school!" I'm already feeling burned out.

[KF2000]

Re: Not enough time!

Oh Sugarbelle, I don’t want that to be the case! (Unless it’s MPOA, of course!

I am sorry to hear it is leading you to feel burned out already. That is not the sort of situation any of us want for our high schoolers. Definitely try to map out each year with realistic expectations of time, ability, interests, and future plans. It’s way too early to be deciding what a child will do with his life right now, and I have found that children always underestimate what they are capable of, but at the same time, we do need to use our parental guidance to make sure they are not drowning or over-committed. Then they don’t do anything well.

With that being said, I will stress to you that high school is simply a challenging time - any way you slice it. Expectations are higher, subjects are lengthier, outside interests expect more commitment, and teens face all kinds of new pressures as they make more and more of their own decisions. It’s intense, both for parents and for students. I would expect to be pushed to your limit, and not let that scare you.

Remember how dependent the little ones are on you? When a new baby arrives, they look to you for everything. The entire first three or four years they have to learn to gradually break away from you to be their own little person who is capable of feeding himself, sleeping well, dressing himself, controlling his behavior, and being aware of the world around him. Its oddly similar to these “last” four years with homeschooled high schoolers. It’s a whirlwind of preparing to step out into the world on their own. There’s school, but then there is also life preparation too - and they happen to be pretty intertwined thanks to this excellent classical curriculum.

The best thing to help keep your sanity is to make sure they are able to be as independent as possible for the nuts and bolts of their day so that you have the mental energy and actual physical time to really talk with your kids about what they are learning and how it applies to life. It can be such a valuable time - but in my experience, it’s every bit as exhausting as those early years!

I bookend my day with prayer, lots of coffee and little bit of wine. That helps.
AMDG,
Sarah

[Jen (formerly) in Japan]

Re: Not enough time!

Hi Sugarbelle,

I hesitate to post on this thread since you've already heard from the ineffable Sarah and Jessica, but your dilemma puts me in mind of the situation I had with my 3rd kid (my DD) at around, yes, 8th grade. If I may.

It took me a while to put it all together in my mind, but I believe that I had come to see each piece of my DD's curricula as individual "subjects". What I mean by this is that I would make a chart for myself, and plop each individual piece into the chart, where each piece was individual in order to create the whole. Math was a piece of the whole, History was a piece, Latin, etc. It was a bit like when I attended public high school: 7 periods in the day, each lasting 45 mins, each "equal" because they met a need for my goal of getting to college. The subjects mentality compartmentalizes each school subject as in individual decision, usually involving "the best fit" from all over the homeschooling curricula world.

At that time, I would create a curricula for my daughter the same way: math, science, history, Latin, etc. I began to see that by cherry picking from around the place, and making each piece equal in weight, it was taking more time than ever; I had lost the overlap/simpatico/Latin-centered curricula I wished for.

Like your son, my daughter has never loved academia for the love of learning. It was definitely pulling teeth to make her get through each subject each day.


I hesitate to offer more advice to you. I believe that you can go one of two ways: either regain the MP Zen of allowing the overlap (sticking to the MP "core" which covers many bases in fewer subjects) or simply continuing on with the "subjects mentality" and gracefully giving yourself permission to bow out of any more than 7 "subjects". After all, resources are limited and each family must craft their own way within that realm.




Jen

[pickandgrin]

Re: Not enough time!

At that time, I would create a curricula for my daughter the same way: math, science, history, Latin, etc. I began to see that by cherry picking from around the place, and making each piece equal in weight, it was taking more time than ever; I had lost the overlap/simpatico/Latin-centered curricula I wished for.
...
I hesitate to offer more advice to you. I believe that you can go one of two ways: either regain the MP Zen of allowing the overlap (sticking to the MP "core" which covers many bases in fewer subjects) or simply continuing on with the "subjects mentality" and gracefully giving yourself permission to bow out of any more than 7 "subjects". After all, resources are limited and each family must craft their own way within that realm.

Jen

Jen,
You always make me laugh! I'm certainly not ineffable. I'm just a mom trying to make it all shake out right-side up somehow like the rest. The jury is still out while YOU have actually seen some caps/gowns in your family.

I appreciate what you and Sarah have share and I hope it is helpful for Sugarbelle. Your comment above reminded me about something I realized about pulling together curriculum a few years ago. Often, when pulling from multiple sources (to do the subject-oriented method you mentioned) the individual pieces are too robust themselves, creating a bloated amount of work for the student. In an effort to create value for a product, there are extra things added that really stretch beyond what would normally be in a study. As an example, take a writing program that also encourages poetry memorization, journaling, and vocabulary building. These three extras aren't negative at all, but they are beyond the scope of what someone who needs a writing program needs in their writing program. They are skills that are likely be accomplished elsewhere in a complete curriculum. (I just typed to someone on another thread that we don't do the vocab building component in the IEW in third grade--a perfect example.)

I share this to say that perhaps you (Sugarbelle) can take a look at all the parts in your whole and see where you have skills overlap in individual subjects. You might be able to do parts of things rather than doing them all. For example, I bet that writing class is covering some things that he's doing in grammar and spelling. Just looking for slices of time here and there to help you trim down. Sarah and Jen have given you all the permission you need for full-on extracting things. I love Sarah's suggestion to use upper school Classical Studies as the literature for a year if necessary. In truth, it IS literature study and it is very excellent literature study. Perhaps your goal could be to get through Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid sometime during high school? Maybe even at the pace of one per year? That's far more than most students will ever get of the big-3 classics and will well position your student for any college literature and writing work they may do.

You are totally not in trouble for switching Latin--just keep going with some Latin if he can. If you have to have two foreign language credits for high school you may want to check with your state about how much work you have to have to count it for a credit. You may even be able to count his work this year in 8th grade as one of those high school foreign language credits. If it turns out you have to drop it after credits, that is really ok. Get what you can now and know that no time on Latin is ever wasted time. It will pay academic dividends forever.

You are the driver of your homeschool bus! You have to work within the framework of what your state and/or umbrella school (if applicable) require for graduation and what you want them most to receive while in your homeschool. Graduation from high school is only a step to more learning, whether in college or through independent learning. What is the foundation you want them to have? That's a good place from which to step back and make these sort of decisions.

(Aside: we have certain requirements in TN, a few of which feel arbitrary and that I'm not particularly passionate about. We will be checking those boxes off and moving on. Not everything required by law is worthy of the same depth of treatment. Jen's words were wise here on figuring out how much value/time/focus each thing gets--is it all the same, or do you emphasize certain things and diminish others? Your son certainly has emphasized music which is a glorious focus. Knowing he is going deep there gives you permission to lighten up elsewhere. Music is one of the three cumulative studies!)

HTH!

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

Oh Sugarbelle, I don’t want that to be the case! (Unless it’s MPOA, of course!

I am sorry to hear it is leading you to feel burned out already. That is not the sort of situation any of us want for our high schoolers. Definitely try to map out each year with realistic expectations of time, ability, interests, and future plans. It’s way too early to be deciding what a child will do with his life right now, and I have found that children always underestimate what they are capable of, but at the same time, we do need to use our parental guidance to make sure they are not drowning or over-committed. Then they don’t do anything well.

With that being said, I will stress to you that high school is simply a challenging time - any way you slice it. Expectations are higher, subjects are lengthier, outside interests expect more commitment, and teens face all kinds of new pressures as they make more and more of their own decisions. It’s intense, both for parents and for students. I would expect to be pushed to your limit, and not let that scare you.

Remember how dependent the little ones are on you? When a new baby arrives, they look to you for everything. The entire first three or four years they have to learn to gradually break away from you to be their own little person who is capable of feeding himself, sleeping well, dressing himself, controlling his behavior, and being aware of the world around him. Its oddly similar to these “last” four years with homeschooled high schoolers. It’s a whirlwind of preparing to step out into the world on their own. There’s school, but then there is also life preparation too - and they happen to be pretty intertwined thanks to this excellent classical curriculum.

The best thing to help keep your sanity is to make sure they are able to be as independent as possible for the nuts and bolts of their day so that you have the mental energy and actual physical time to really talk with your kids about what they are learning and how it applies to life. It can be such a valuable time - but in my experience, it’s every bit as exhausting as those early years!

I bookend my day with prayer, lots of coffee and little bit of wine. That helps.
AMDG,
Sarah

I always love your advice, and yes, MPOA is what I was investigating. I think it's in our future!

I would drink wine, but it gives me a headache so I indulge in a bit too much coffee. Instead of a chilled out mom, my kids get a hyperactive one.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

Hi Sugarbelle,

I hesitate to post on this thread since you've already heard from the ineffable Sarah and Jessica, but your dilemma puts me in mind of the situation I had with my 3rd kid (my DD) at around, yes, 8th grade. If I may.

It took me a while to put it all together in my mind, but I believe that I had come to see each piece of my DD's curricula as individual "subjects". What I mean by this is that I would make a chart for myself, and plop each individual piece into the chart, where each piece was individual in order to create the whole. Math was a piece of the whole, History was a piece, Latin, etc. It was a bit like when I attended public high school: 7 periods in the day, each lasting 45 mins, each "equal" because they met a need for my goal of getting to college. The subjects mentality compartmentalizes each school subject as in individual decision, usually involving "the best fit" from all over the homeschooling curricula world.

At that time, I would create a curricula for my daughter the same way: math, science, history, Latin, etc. I began to see that by cherry picking from around the place, and making each piece equal in weight, it was taking more time than ever; I had lost the overlap/simpatico/Latin-centered curricula I wished for.

Like your son, my daughter has never loved academia for the love of learning. It was definitely pulling teeth to make her get through each subject each day.


I hesitate to offer more advice to you. I believe that you can go one of two ways: either regain the MP Zen of allowing the overlap (sticking to the MP "core" which covers many bases in fewer subjects) or simply continuing on with the "subjects mentality" and gracefully giving yourself permission to bow out of any more than 7 "subjects". After all, resources are limited and each family must craft their own way within that realm.




Jen

Oh yes, I have my charts, and in my mind everything is related and equally important. So much time has been spent OCDing over each and every subject. Pray for me. I agree I have to decide which way to go, though, and appreciate your input.

And BTW, my son expressed interested in the navy today. He really wants adventure. He is very bright, but one of those hyperactive kids who is always looking for excitement and scares the living daylights out of his poor mother.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

skills overlap[/I] in individual subjects. You might be able to do parts of things rather than doing them all. For example, I bet that writing class is covering some things that he's doing in grammar and spelling. Just looking for slices of time here and there to help you trim down. Sarah and Jen have given you all the permission you need for full-on extracting things. I love Sarah's suggestion to use upper school Classical Studies as the literature for a year if necessary. In truth, it IS literature study and it is very excellent literature study. Perhaps your goal could be to get through Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid sometime during high school? Maybe even at the pace of one per year? That's far more than most students will ever get of the big-3 classics and will well position your student for any college literature and writing work they may do.


HTH!

Thank you, Jessica. You and Jen are absolutely correct about piecing together robust parts of curriculum, and it's something that never dawned on me before. This weekend I am going to go through his books and try to eliminate what's unnecessary. I try to have my kids do too much because I want them to have the best of EVERY subject. I also might rearrange his literature studies this year and replace The Wind in the Willows with The Iliad. He read it a couple years ago, anyway.

[jejegreer]

Re: Not enough time!

I completely understand! My daughter switched to MP full 6th grade this year (even though she should be in 7th grade), and it is absolutely overwhelming. She is doing 6 hours a day of school, and we have not even started Latin or writing yet. I have no time to help my youngest, special needs kid, who spent the day chasing a family of moose. And we still did not get through all of our math. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I feel your pain.

One thing I did discuss with Stella is that the Delectare courses for Famous Men and Literature are going to have to be enough for her each week going forward. I realize that I am supposed to do over all of the discussion questions, and talk with her about the topics, but I do not have that extra half hour a day for literature and half hour a day for the 2 Famous Men courses she is taking (we added Famous Men of Rome since she has never done it), nor does she. The Delectare courses seem to be quite good, and I believe that they still have openings in Literature 8M and Book of the Ancient Romans/Aeneid, which was not what you were doing, of course, but could work for your child if you need help getting Classical Studies done.

[Jen (formerly) in Japan]

Re: Not enough time!

Thank you, Jessica. You and Jen are absolutely correct about piecing together robust parts of curriculum, and it's something that never dawned on me before. This weekend I am going to go through his books and try to eliminate what's unnecessary. I try to have my kids do too much because I want them to have the best of EVERY subject. I also might rearrange his literature studies this year and replace The Wind in the Willows with The Iliad. He read it a couple years ago, anyway.

It's an easy trap to fall in to, for sure. When I say "trap", I mean the Mom Thinking that because you know your child best, he will benefit most from your cherry-picking the-best-of-the-best in every "subject". Subject thinking is what eventually caused my brain to overheat at the upper end of middle school/high school. There are so many worthy pursuits in those years, and academics are a piece, to be sure, but not the only piece of the whole.

In middle school, the cognitive (brain) development is actually one of the largest pieces. In addition to school subjects, the child is moving into greater emotional and mental growth. In fact, the term "middle school" itself is an educational construct whereby the child's overall cognitive growth is favored OVER academics. A middle school model is based on a team approach to teaching so that four adults can help monitor and bolster the child's overall development, while also teaching the four core subjects. That said, we never leave a space in our Subjects Mentality for "growing up". Wouldn't that be great, though? Period 4: Growing Up Time.


You are wise to see all of this now. I fell deeply in this area. I was coming from Sonlight, of all places, which also has "cores". With SL, you are supposed to add math, science, and a few fine arts, then let 'er rip. I tended to try to squash SL into the History Subject, then add, add, add all around that, including, yes, all sorts of classical education pieces on top of that. It didn't go well. Not good. I don't recommend it.


Possibly a weekend read through of The Latin Centered Curriculum (if you have it) or some articles on the MP site (Multum non Multa https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/multum-non-multa/) would help you focus in on a more clear picture for your son. In this case, with an 8th grader, with his developmental need for some cognitive growth, quite possibly, less WILL be more.... for you both.


Then come back and tell us how it's working!!



Jen

[Sugarbelle]

Re: Not enough time!

I completely understand! My daughter switched to MP full 6th grade this year (even though she should be in 7th grade), and it is absolutely overwhelming. She is doing 6 hours a day of school, and we have not even started Latin or writing yet. I have no time to help my youngest, special needs kid, who spent the day chasing a family of moose. And we still did not get through all of our math. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I feel your pain.

\

Thank you, Jeje. I read your other post and hope you can figure out a more sane schedule, too. There is so much wisdom floating around on this forum for us to take in when we need it, right?