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    #16
    Re: Research Papers

    Originally posted by momgineer View Post
    I fully agree about kids who write "research papers" starting in 2nd grade. That is not the type of research paper I am talking about. I am talking about formal research papers at the high school level. I am not in any way looking for research instruction in grade school or even middle school. I am looking for it to be formally taught in high school well before senior thesis so they can use the skills during high school and get prepared for college writing. I know colleges will teach it is English 101, but the classes that students take that first semester will assume they know how to write a research paper before they finish English 101. At least my daughter's classes her first semester assumed it.

    Classical Comp is a great program! I fully agree. It gives you all the technical skills to be a strong writer. I only taught through Confirmation/Refutation and then my son dropped CC to do Language Arts through another program. In that program they stepped them through researching and writing a paper over a full year. Perhaps the later levels of CC teach note taking and knowing when to cite information, but I didn't see that in my quick glance. MP reps have stated often that the teachers at Highlands add in other writing in addition to CC. They teach paragraph writing in literature class and introduce how to write essays and according to an above post, they teach and assign formal research papers in history. Students get this instruction at Highlands. It does not appear to be included in the MP homeschool curriculum. I have stepped my kids through the process with another curriculum and I *could* pull that old curriculum out, but the whole point of using MP is that it is all there. I know there are "opportunities" to add in additional writing, but I am not skilled enough to know when is best to do so or how much to add or when exactly to add it. Or maybe my experience with other homeschool curriculum that require research papers is overkill and it really isn't needed in high school other than senior thesis? I don't know. But the fact the Highlands does it, makes me want my kids to do it.
    I definitely wasn't trying to disagree with your last sentence! I personally tend to have a lament about, not research papers specifically, but that if we end up homeschooling through high school that I don't think it can look like an HLS education in a lot of ways. I think I read somewhere that the ability to recreate the HLS Upper School experience at home has been a challenge for MP and that's why the upper grade levels have taken a little bit longer to get pulled together and published. I totally understand wanting it all in a one-stop shop, though, and to look as much like HLS as possible. But I digress!

    I think writing is tricky because, like someone said, it does say in the guides in various places to "write a paper about the history of X" or "write an essay explaining Y", so as homeschool moms we're going to need to step our kids through that or find a program/teacher/class that does, rely on what they're learning in CC, or MP has to write the guide for it. And even with a guide, writing is tricky to teach! I think that, practically, though, right now if I were putting together an 11th or 12th grade year, since MP doesn't have those full cores put together yet, I'd probably either flesh out a research paper from what's already in the curriculum or buy the CLE modules linked above. Or do the linked MPOA class, that looks perfect!

    I keep hoping that KF2000 will chime in with what she's doing with her high schoolers at home because that might be more helpful than me pontificating over here with my just-barely-middle-schooler.
    Jodi
    ~~~~~~~
    2019-20 School Year:
    Ethan (7A)
    Matthew (5A)
    Silas (1st)
    Eleanor (4yo dabbling in PK as time allows)
    Andrew (brand new as of Oct 2019)

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      #17
      Re: Research Papers

      Originally posted by tanya View Post
      Job security!

      Tanya
      Glad to provide it. Lord of the Flies!!!
      JeJe Greer
      Mom to:
      Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, writing, and Henle Latin)
      Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Research Papers

        Originally posted by momgineer View Post

        Classical Comp is a great program! I fully agree. It gives you all the technical skills to be a strong writer. I only taught through Confirmation/Refutation and then my son dropped CC to do Language Arts through another program. In that program they stepped them through researching and writing a paper over a full year. Perhaps the later levels of CC teach note taking and knowing when to cite information, but I didn't see that in my quick glance. MP reps have stated often that the teachers at Highlands add in other writing in addition to CC. They teach paragraph writing in literature class and introduce how to write essays and according to an above post, they teach and assign formal research papers in history. Students get this instruction at Highlands. It does not appear to be included in the MP homeschool curriculum. I have stepped my kids through the process with another curriculum and I *could* pull that old curriculum out, but the whole point of using MP is that it is all there. I know there are "opportunities" to add in additional writing, but I am not skilled enough to know when is best to do so or how much to add or when exactly to add it. Or maybe my experience with other homeschool curriculum that require research papers is overkill and it really isn't needed in high school other than senior thesis? I don't know. But the fact the Highlands does it, makes me want my kids to do it.
        Thank you for this information. I looked at the online academy and they are offering a "Foundations in English" course for the Fall 2018 semester (McGraw-Hill Handbook of English Grammar and Usages listed as a source?) So, if MP found it necessary to introduce a sentence/paragraph/research writing class at these levels (6-8) by either their teachers at HLS or MP online, why is this content not included in their homeschool version of their writing curriculum (Classical Composition) or at least mentioned somewhere alerting parents that these topics are not part of their writing program but they are equally important to teach? This is very confusing! specially for those of us who are: 1. Inexperiencing at teaching writing, 2. Trying to avoiding "gaps" when teaching at home, 3. Relying on MP expertise in providing a well-rounded Classical Education.
        So I guess we DO need additional sources to teach these topics?
        Momgineer, what other source did you use?
        Thanks
        MG
        ***Using some 5A and 8A MP materials for 2020-2021***

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Research Papers

          Originally posted by JodiSue View Post
          I keep hoping that KF2000 will chime in with what she's doing with her high schoolers at home because that might be more helpful than me pontificating over here with my just-barely-middle-schooler.
          Thanks, Jodi, for "paging" me...I have been reading along, but much of what I felt like I could offer was what you had already brought up. We have not found it difficult to make the transition to writing longer, cited papers, but I realize that might be our personal situation so I did not want to dismiss the fact that others might find it more difficult.

          It is true that there are skills to be learned in writing a research paper that make it a valuable experience. But long ago I learned that all a research paper really is is a much larger, expanded version of an argumentative essay. I attended a "Two Andrews" seminar many, many years ago featuring Andrew Pudewa and Andrew Kern (both of whom have written excellent writing programs) and that was their point about research papers. If you can write an argumentative essay, then all you need to do to write a research paper is to have a larger thesis, which you support with several arguments. For each argument, you basically write an essay. Therefore the real experience a student needs to do well with a research paper is that ability to make a point and fully support it well. Which means, the writing is the essential thing, not the research. MP does that part extremely well, even with "just" their homeschool materials.

          For us, in our homeschool, we use CC for the technical skills of writing persuasive essays. I have them write as many essays as possible from their high school literature guides. For these, I want them to have something of their own to "say," and then they have to support it with the actual portions of text. This is a great way to teach citations. Many of the questions in the high school literature guides actually tell them to include the lines from the text that support their answers. I just ask them to do this in their essays too. From there, it is an easy step to make to have them do that in their essays for history or religion. For religion, my high schoolers take classes from Homeschool Connections, which usually has them reading variety of books and Church documents. Thus when they write an essay, they have several places they can use for support; I just teach them to include the citation. I don't expect them to be experts at it but to simply know the basics.

          Also, we recently used an AP version of a textbook for history that had Document Based Questions in the back. These were supposed to be a help to get the kids ready for what they would see on the AP exam. Each question had several primary source documents that were all related to the question being asked. The resulting essay my daughter wrote for each question was usually 6-10 pages. I would consider it a research paper where the research was already provided. The fact that a textbook designed for upper high schoolers included the research tells me that the more valuable part of the experience is the ability to read, think, decide on an argument, and write up a response to answer it with support from the texts provided. In today's day and age (with the internet) doing research is rather easy. The harder part is deciding what to say and how to say it. That is why I continue to stress that it is the thinking and the writing that is most important to learn. If you can manage more than that in your homeschool, great. There appear to be resources out there by which you can quickly cover the actual mechanics of a research paper. But it does not have to be until junior or senior year of high school, and it does not need to take a long time.

          I am not sure I added anything new, other than to say we have trusted MP's path, and it has been working out well for us. I guess I can offer more when we get done applying to colleges this fall! (but we certainly have had a lot of letters and emails from great schools to sift through!)

          AMDG,
          Sarah
          2020-2021
          16th Year HSing; 10th Year with MP
          DD, 19, Homeschool grad; college sophomore
          DS, 16
          DD, 14
          DD, 12
          DD, 10
          DD, 8
          DD, 6
          +DS+
          DS, 2

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Research Papers

            To clarify:

            The MPOA Foundations in English class is a tiny offering (only 6 seats total) and is offered to help the older writing student (6-8th) get ready for the advanced track of high school Classical Composition in an accelerated format (High School Comp I). This would also include middle school students who don't have years of Latin under their belt and need development with grammar and syntax. This course is definitely not the main path for most of the MPOA students.

            On the High School Comp I page they note the following: "Students who naturally find writing challenging or who require more time and practice to master a specific skill should consider taking the Foundations for English and the Fable and Narrative class."
            Last edited by pickandgrin; 08-03-2018, 04:18 PM.
            Festina lentē,
            Jessica P

            2020-2021
            11th year HSing · 9th year MP
            @ Home, HLN, & Latin online
            11th, 9th, 6th, 3rd

            Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Research Papers

              Personally, I have always used multiple writing curricula. The very act of switching between types of assignments has produced in my kids the ability to communicate in different ways.

              MP is very friendly with Andrew Pudewa (IEW). I learned how to used IEW from Andrew P himself in my 2nd year of homeschooling. IEW has a research type paper embedded in his 9 units in addition to his company selling some high school level products (including writing a research paper at the high school level).

              https://iew.com/shop/products/writin...rstudent-combo

              My olders used Classical Writing, a competitor to Classical Composition. They learned to write through the progym from that program.

              Sonlight's writing is more "modern": prompt based, "natural writing" which some kids thrive under. Usually not young boys, ha, ha.

              But, most importantly, they read, read, read. Writer's voice happens in the writer's mind, which often comes via reading. So, although there is "constructing an argument" (CC), there is also the development of writer's voice (reading). In no way denigrating CC, which I happen to be enjoying, but I simply don't believe that CC is a "one and done" writing curricula.


              In fact, by about March, I had decided that my baby had practiced Narrative enough. We were bored out of our minds by then because he had mastered the skills for the level. So, I grabbed a copy of an IEW Theme Based Writing book and away we went. I don't think Tanya will throw me off the forums for a foray into developing his writing skills differently. We will pick right up with C/M in September. But, if baby masters that level before the end of the year, you can bet I will find something that keeps us both interested in communicating his thoughts.


              JeJe, although I am using Bookshark (Sonlight's secular division), we aren't using their LAs (writing). There are definitely kids who thrive under SL's writing. SL's assignments are very "journalistic" and creative, for the lack of a better descriptor. CC is very different from that style, more proscribed, which actually helps many young writers to train the mind toward making the argument rather than the "free flow" driveling on and on that creative writing can sometimes produce. That is one reason why I was never attracted to Bravewriter. Too "free-write-y" for me.




              Jen
              DS, 27 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace)

              DS, 25 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, ENGAGED!

              DD, 22 yrs, graduated from The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC; 2nd grade teacher.

              DS, 12 yrs, 8th grade; attends a private classical school, 7th - 12th.

              All homeschooled for some/all of their K-12 education.

              Me: retired after 16 years of continuous homeschooling. Ahhh....

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Research Papers

                Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post
                Personally, I have always used multiple writing curricula. The very act of switching between types of assignments has produced in my kids the ability to communicate in different ways.

                MP is very friendly with Andrew Pudewa (IEW). I learned how to used IEW from Andrew P himself in my 2nd year of homeschooling. IEW has a research type paper embedded in his 9 units in addition to his company selling some high school level products (including writing a research paper at the high school level).

                https://iew.com/shop/products/writin...rstudent-combo

                My olders used Classical Writing, a competitor to Classical Composition. They learned to write through the progym from that program.

                Sonlight's writing is more "modern": prompt based, "natural writing" which some kids thrive under. Usually not young boys, ha, ha.

                But, most importantly, they read, read, read. Writer's voice happens in the writer's mind, which often comes via reading. So, although there is "constructing an argument" (CC), there is also the development of writer's voice (reading). In no way denigrating CC, which I happen to be enjoying, but I simply don't believe that CC is a "one and done" writing curricula.


                In fact, by about March, I had decided that my baby had practiced Narrative enough. We were bored out of our minds by then because he had mastered the skills for the level. So, I grabbed a copy of an IEW Theme Based Writing book and away we went. I don't think Tanya will throw me off the forums for a foray into developing his writing skills differently. We will pick right up with C/M in September. But, if baby masters that level before the end of the year, you can bet I will find something that keeps us both interested in communicating his thoughts.


                JeJe, although I am using Bookshark (Sonlight's secular division), we aren't using their LAs (writing). There are definitely kids who thrive under SL's writing. SL's assignments are very "journalistic" and creative, for the lack of a better descriptor. CC is very different from that style, more proscribed, which actually helps many young writers to train the mind toward making the argument rather than the "free flow" driveling on and on that creative writing can sometimes produce. That is one reason why I was never attracted to Bravewriter. Too "free-write-y" for me.




                Jen
                I would never use Sonlight writing. I am interested in the skills developed by basic research on small topics along the history/literature track. As Jennifer noted, I can't wait to start discussing this with my kids.
                JeJe Greer
                Mom to:
                Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, writing, and Henle Latin)
                Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

                Comment

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