MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

[jejegreer]

I ordered the entire 6M curriculum package with modifications for First Form Latin and doing a combined year of Classical Composition Fable/Narrative yesterday. It shipped today. I am really proud of myself for finally making a decision, and going with what you all told me to do. I also went with the slightly easier 6M instead of 6A.

However, I also ordered the Veritas Press Omnibus Level 1 with teacher today. It seems to be the only other program that actually gets kids into good schools. I kind of really like it. Those of you who follow the forum a lot know that I am really into history. I see their program doing more classical history reading. They read Livy. I love Livy! I named our dog Livy because I love him so much (our dog is a girl, but I am not really into gender identify debates so Livy and I are both fine with that). I want to know a few things here:

1) Does anyone have an opinion of Veritas Press? Can I use it for history and classics? It seems much more in depth, but I guess I will find that out for real next week when my Omnibus book arrives.

2) Why does Memoria Press not schedule Livy's History of Rome, or any part of it? That seems to me to be a real part of a classical education.

I always love what I hear here, but I am am a bit confounded by the compete removal of Livy from the classical/historical studies in the MP program, and am sure that some of you can tell me why, if you cannot convince me that my daughter should wait until college to read him.

Thank you all, as always, for your opinions. Happy 4th of July!

[Cindy in Indy]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

I ordered the entire 6M curriculum package with modifications for First Form Latin and doing a combined year of Classical Composition Fable/Narrative yesterday. It shipped today. I am really proud of myself for finally making a decision, and going with what you all told me to do. I also went with the slightly easier 6M instead of 6A.

However, I also ordered the Veritas Press Omnibus Level 1 with teacher today. It seems to be the only other program that actually gets kids into good schools. I kind of really like it. Those of you who follow the forum a lot know that I am really into history. I see their program doing more classical history reading. They read Livy. I love Livy! I named our dog Livy because I love him so much (our dog is a girl, but I am not really into gender identify debates so Livy and I are both fine with that). I want to know a few things here:

1) Does anyone have an opinion of Veritas Press? Can I use it for history and classics? It seems much more in depth, but I guess I will find that out for real next week when my Omnibus book arrives.

2) Why does Memoria Press not schedule Livy's History of Rome, or any part of it? That seems to me to be a real part of a classical education.

I always love what I hear here, but I am am a bit confounded by the compete removal of Livy from the classical/historical studies in the MP program, and am sure that some of you can tell me why, if you cannot convince me that my daughter should wait until college to read him.

Thank you all, as always, for your opinions. Happy 4th of July!

I look forward to hearing from the MP experts, but I will share from my personal experience years ago that Omnibus1 is like drinking from a fire hose. I moved to MP after Omnibus2, persuaded by the Multum non Multa slogan (Much, not many). Slow and deep is better than fast and wide (depth, not breadth). Especially when you factor in the age of the student: look at that book list for 7th grade! Will anything stick? Possibly just a negative experience with "classical history". She has the rest of her life to read the great books. Trying to read too many too fast can lead to burnout.

I should add that if you love Livy, you could select portions for her to read in addition to MP (or possibly in place of Cicero?) My memory is that Livy discusses many ignoble (immoral) traits, while Cicero focuses on the nobler ideals of Rome. So you will want to use your good judgment to select what is appropriate for dd.

Another helpful slogan is pickandgrin's favorite: Festina Lente - make haste slowly. I find it is better to work at a steady pace and let the student flourish and develop their own love for a book or subject.

This is just my opinion! ymmv

[jejegreer]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

I look forward to hearing from the MP experts, but I will share from my personal experience years ago that Omnibus1 is like drinking from a fire hose. I moved to MP after Omnibus2, persuaded by the Multum non Multa slogan (Much, not many). Slow and deep is better than fast and wide (depth, not breadth). Especially when you factor in the age of the student: look at that book list for 7th grade! Will anything stick? Possibly just a negative experience with "classical history". She has the rest of her life to read the great books. Trying to read too many too fast can lead to burnout.

I should add that if you love Livy, you could select portions for her to read in addition to MP (or possibly in place of Cicero?) My memory is that Livy discusses many ignoble (immoral) traits, while Cicero focuses on the nobler ideals of Rome. So you will want to use your good judgment to select what is appropriate for dd.

Another helpful slogan is pickandgrin's favorite: Festina Lente - make haste slowly. I find it is better to work at a steady pace and let the student flourish and develop their own love for a book or subject.

This is just my opinion! ymmv

I love it - drinking from a firehose! I totally see that. I did not study anything classical until college. I guess looking at the list I was thinking of it as a college student.

I am that rare mother who wants my child to read about ignoble traits, as well as noble ones. I let me kids watch PG-13 movies at 7 as long as they do not have *** or drug scenes.

Maybe we will just add Livy, and I can use the Omnibus guide to help us with that. I appreciate you commenting. Why do I always spend money before asking questions here?

[sunset]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

I am listening in.

I have not used Omnibus but always thought I would, only it seems so overwhelming to teach now that I have a child old enough to use it, and I keep looking back at the depth of MP. I know both from reading discussions about it and looking at samples that Omnibus puts a big emphasis on theology and Christian worldview, particularly reformed theology. This is actually a selling point for me - I am hesitant to dive into MP because I will be losing a reformed worldview in my history materials. A lot of people find the reformed Christian worldview a negative about the curriculum. Depends on what you need I guess.

[bean]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

Removed my comment. )

[tanya]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

Hello.

Cindy spoke well about our issues with Omnibus. In fact, I just had a conversation about Omnibus with a Veritas rep at the ACCS. We are friendly competitors! He and I agreed to disagree on the way the humanities should be studied. As far as Livy goes, we did have Livy in our curriculum at one time, but we removed it because there are too many references that cause trouble in our classrooms. It is easier to read Livy individually with one child, where you can guide that child. But in a classroom situation, when the material becomes racy in an immoral sense, it is difficult to control the giggling and the later conversations among the students in the restrooms or lunchroom. So, Livy was removed to make our teachers' lives a little easier! Herodotus posed the same types of problems as we studied the Spartan lifestyle. There's plenty of time for Livy in college.

Tanya

[hermione310]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

I second the "drinking from a firehose" comment about Omnibus. In my effort to overthink every aspect of homeschooling , I started to feel a little nervous about high school looming ahead and wanted to get a feel for all classical options. I ordered Omnibus 3 (the self-paced course) to get a feel for it, and see if I should be considering other avenues for classical education in addition to MP. As a selfish motive I also wanted to keep my brain from atrophying, so decided to take the course myself.

On a positive note, there's a great deal to admire about Omnibus. The book selection is incredible, and includes so many books I hope to read before I pass from this earth. I also love the meaty discussions and thought-provoking questions for the students. Great stuff. I wish my college education would have looked like this, let alone my high school education. That said, I quickly came to the conclusion that there's absolutely no way DD could keep up with the reading, even when she reaches the appropriate grade/age. The number of pages assigned for daily reading was realllllly intense. And this is meaty, meaty reading. I can't imagine a student of this age (starting in 7th grade for Omnibus 1 -- wow) completing all of this reading plus all of the work for other courses. I was also concerned that with such a volume of weighty material, there was no time to absorb and reflect upon it, let alone retain it moving forward.

I realize education is highly individual, and it's such a blessing to have so many options. I'm sure this suite of courses works well for others. For me, previewing this course reinforced my comfort with the MP approach of studying fewer works more deeply. I now feel comfortable continuing with our current MP trajectory.

[generalsparky]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

I love it - drinking from a firehose! I totally see that. I did not study anything classical until college. I guess looking at the list I was thinking of it as a college student.

I am that rare mother who wants my child to read about ignoble traits, as well as noble ones. I let me kids watch PG-13 movies at 7 as long as they do not have *** or drug scenes.

Maybe we will just add Livy, and I can use the Omnibus guide to help us with that. I appreciate you commenting. Why do I always spend money before asking questions here?

My son read the first 3 or 4 books of Livy's Early History of Rome earlier this year. It went just fine. He also read Plutarch's Roman Lives. And he's currently reading Ovid's Metamorphoses for his final lit selection and it has caused more eyebrow raising than any of the other books LOL I would not want to attempt any of those with a classroom full of 16 yo boys though

There were some issues with plagiarism in Omnibus a few years ago. I think they are resolved now, but it's a real turn off for me. I think there were something like seventy passages (or more, it's been a while I just remember it was a lot) so it wasn't an oopsie one time deal.

ETA: As a Catholic, I try to avoid Whig history which Omnibus is going to give. (I hope I remembered right that are you Catholic too. If not, ignore :-) )



Kelly

[pschaeffer]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

One aspect that hasn't been touched on here is our differences in approaching primary sources. If you analyze the Omnibus, what the book itself consists of are essays about the primary sources and most of the questions refer back to those essays. Those questions are not designed to go back to the primary source and ask about it "Is it true? Is it good? Is it beautiful?" but rather to answer what the author of the essay thought about the work. At MP, because we spend lots of time on each book, we have time to constantly ask, "What does the text say?" over and over again. We let the authors speak for themselves and teachers can inform students with their particular perspective. In this sense MP gives a stronger affinity for primary sources than the Omnibus though we do less of them.

This does preclude a strong particular theology from coming out but that is partly our goal with our ecumenical stance.

Paul

[serendipitous journey]

Re: MP/Veritas Press and what about Livy?

One aspect that hasn't been touched on here is our differences in approaching primary sources. If you analyze the Omnibus, what the book itself consists of are essays about the primary sources and most of the questions refer back to those essays. Those questions are not designed to go back to the primary source and ask about it "Is it true? Is it good? Is it beautiful?" but rather to answer what the author of the essay thought about the work. At MP, because we spend lots of time on each book, we have time to constantly ask, "What does the text say?" over and over again. We let the authors speak for themselves and teachers can inform students with their particular perspective. In this sense MP gives a stronger affinity for primary sources than the Omnibus though we do less of them.

This does preclude a strong particular theology from coming out but that is partly our goal with our ecumenical stance.

Paul

An "Amen!" to that, Paul.

I've thought about Omnibus in the past, and this thread prompted me to order a copy of "Omnibus I" so that I could have it on hand to look over and compare: it is en route at the moment. Although I did know that Omnibus has a very strong, very particular interpretation I rather foolishly didn't dig more deeply until yesterday -- it was bean's comment that encouraged me to do so.

I do think if you are considering Omnibus, it would be good to not only look into the plagiarism concern, but to carefully read Doug Wilson's beliefs about such things as the institution of slavery and the proper place of women/the degree of control a woman's male relatives should have over her life.

Since I myself will not support someone who holds these beliefs, financially or in any other way, I'll have to return my book when it arrives. I wouldn't enable a family member to persist in toxic behaviors, and I won't enable my brother Doug Wilson in work that seems, to me, to be keeping him so far from the good Lord. Naturally others disagree, but it might be good to vet him thoroughly to yourself before purchasing his books.

One thing I cherish about Memoria Press is the heart of the folks behind the program. I often disagree, sometimes heatedly, with elements of the program. But I have never, ever disagreed with them about the precious value of providing the very best education and moral training to all little ones, and cultivating true freedom so that these dear ones may learn to freely respond to the voice of the One who loves them most.

ETA: One strong option, if you wish to have support for more classics and/or for works like Livy's Early History of Rome, is Kolbe. Here's their curriculum map: you can see that Herodotus and Livy are both scheduled. This plan is subject to the same "firehose" concern, but not the ethical/plagiarism concerns.