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    #16
    Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
    Jen’s points are really good. Definitely keep those in mind.

    Also, I have done IEW also and it was not our favorite either. Honestly, the Fable exercises really are not that long and not that involved. Early on, they really don’t take that long. If you do them as assigned, and let your early expectations be really low, she may realize that it’s not so bad. The fables are not at all like a lot of the longer pieces from WWE. They are all very very short and very simple - which really does make it easier to retell. And the retelling, or the narrations, are only done on day one, day three, and day 8 of the lessons. The other five days are other things to do.

    But even with that, yes, in the early days of this, with a really reluctant child, I would not hesitate to jump in there and “do it” yourself first, as a model. Whether or not she tries it herself - be patient on that. But if you go through a lesson (2 weeks) or two (4weeks), or even three (6 weeks), modeling it for her, she will eventually start to recognize what you are doing, realize there are not going to be any surprises, and she might feel like giving it a try herself. Remember, if she were in a classroom, there would be other children she could see doing it long before she might get called on to try it. You may need to be those “other children” for a while to help her get comfortable.

    My kids always have certain exercises they really don’t like doing. And those are the ones where I jump in every time, usually trying to do something ridiculous so they lighten up about the whole thing, get them giggling, and then either call it a day (because at least she paid attention) or see if she wants to try it.

    But I am with you on not wanting to make this a battle. So don’t. Don’t make it be something she has to do “or else.” Make it something you plan to do, that she can sit with you and observe, hopefully making it funny, and let it sink in a bit for her. Eventually, my guess will be that she will forget to feel pressured and might want to try it.

    AMDG,
    Sarah
    Well, this sounds very wise and doable. It seemed so black and white in my mind, like if she couldn't do the first lesson, how could we go on to the rest of the book? But it sounds so reasonable the way you put it You are so right about the classroom thing. Sometimes I feel like I need to keep teaching until my child gets it, and just completely understand the lesson, or we have failed. But of course we usually learn things in bits and pieces, and building on what understood imperfectly before. Thank you so much for this.

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      #17
      Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

      Originally posted by sunset View Post
      I thought this was the problem too, but she got very frustrated when I tried to back up to sentences and paragraphs and copywork again. Then she started writing this story on her own, with complete sentences and indented paragraphs and decent punctuation - she still has a lot to practice and to learn, but she is definitely ready to move on. I just haven't figured out how yet.
      Have you considered simply writing across the curriculum, in the style described in the Well Trained Mind? This follows a different learning curve than CC, and it doesn't look especially impressive in these middle years but the rhetoric/high school level is where you see the fruit. Plus, it is much more child-appropriate than the WWS books & assignments, IMHO. The disadvantage is that you don't have a packaged program. I think the advantage lies in the thinking and analysis skills built up and in the child's ability to really understand, analyze, and write well about books & ideas even if there isn't a workbook or set of questions for her to work from.

      The other advantage is that, once you get the hang of it, you move at the child's pace. Once she masters something you move on to the next step. You can always use it for a while to build confidence and then re-try CC, if you wish.

      If you do try the WTM-style writing, I think Susan Wise Bauer's audio lectures on writing are worth listening to. You'll get a much better feel for the process than you could from reading her books/articles. The lectures are a few dollars each to purchase and I have been revisiting them each summer for the past few years so I definitely got my $$ worth: elementary writing; logic/middle years; rhetoric/high school.

      Last SWB recommendation: her workshop on "Homeschooling the Real (Distractable, Impatient, Argumentative, Unenthusiastic, Non-Book-Loving, Inattentive, Poky, Vague) Child". This workshop, and her one on burnout, helped me decide to move MP-ward a few years ago, which was a wonderful decision for us. There are many worthy ideas in the Real Child workshop for moving past these difficult places.

      ETA: I didn't see a mention of Memoria Press Online Academy yet on the thread -- maybe it is there, but if not and it is affordable, that is another great option. Sometimes just taking the parent out of the loop a bit helps enormously, esp. at that age. If online classes won't suit, and you aren't already using the instruction DVDs, then adding them might be another way to provide support for her, if you'd like to stick with CC.
      Last edited by serendipitous journey; 07-01-2018, 08:51 PM.
      Ana, mama to
      ds A, 13yo
      ds N, 8yo

      Comment


        #18
        Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

        Originally posted by serendipitous journey View Post
        Have you considered simply writing across the curriculum, in the style described in the Well Trained Mind? This follows a different learning curve than CC, and it doesn't look especially impressive in these middle years but the rhetoric/high school level is where you see the fruit. Plus, it is much more child-appropriate than the WWS books & assignments, IMHO. The disadvantage is that you don't have a packaged program. I think the advantage lies in the thinking and analysis skills built up and in the child's ability to really understand, analyze, and write well about books & ideas even if there isn't a workbook or set of questions for her to work from.

        The other advantage is that, once you get the hang of it, you move at the child's pace. Once she masters something you move on to the next step. You can always use it for a while to build confidence and then re-try CC, if you wish.

        If you do try the WTM-style writing, I think Susan Wise Bauer's audio lectures on writing are worth listening to. You'll get a much better feel for the process than you could from reading her books/articles. The lectures are a few dollars each to purchase and I have been revisiting them each summer for the past few years so I definitely got my $$ worth: elementary writing; logic/middle years; rhetoric/high school.

        Last SWB recommendation: her workshop on "Homeschooling the Real (Distractable, Impatient, Argumentative, Unenthusiastic, Non-Book-Loving, Inattentive, Poky, Vague) Child". This workshop, and her one on burnout, helped me decide to move MP-ward a few years ago, which was a wonderful decision for us. There are many worthy ideas in the Real Child workshop for moving past these difficult places.

        ETA: I didn't see a mention of Memoria Press Online Academy yet on the thread -- maybe it is there, but if not and it is affordable, that is another great option. Sometimes just taking the parent out of the loop a bit helps enormously, esp. at that age. If online classes won't suit, and you aren't already using the instruction DVDs, then adding them might be another way to provide support for her, if you'd like to stick with CC.
        Thank you for your suggestions. I'll keep them in mind. I forgot to clarify in the first post that I haven't actually tried CC yet. It's narration in general, (and writing across the curriculum was a total fail for us), that I'm worried about re-introducing, IF I decide to start CC. But I'm leaning towards inviting my daughter to try the lessons without insisting on it. I'd like to try teaching it myself first, but videos might help. She's only ten. I'm hoping that she may just need to mature a bit to the point where she's comfortable with a little more tedium. She seems to have a low tolerance for it at this point!

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          #19
          Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

          Originally posted by sunset View Post
          Thank you for your suggestions. I'll keep them in mind. I forgot to clarify in the first post that I haven't actually tried CC yet. It's narration in general, (and writing across the curriculum was a total fail for us), that I'm worried about re-introducing, IF I decide to start CC. But I'm leaning towards inviting my daughter to try the lessons without insisting on it. I'd like to try teaching it myself first, but videos might help. She's only ten. I'm hoping that she may just need to mature a bit to the point where she's comfortable with a little more tedium. She seems to have a low tolerance for it at this point!
          Sunset,
          This is so good to keep in mind! You have so much time. There are a lot of “growing up” things going on with ten year old girls! Take it one step at a time, and be patient. I let my kids know that it is simply another part of their school, and we expect to do it, but even with that, we don’t make it “high pressure.” I don’t respond well to that myself, so I try to keep from creating that with my kids, too.

          Keep us posted on how things go this year, and hopefully you will see gradual improvement.

          AMDG,
          Sarah
          2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
          DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
          DS, 16
          DD, 14
          DD, 12
          DD, 10
          DD, 7.5
          DD, 5.5
          +DS+
          DS, 18 months

          Comment


            #20
            Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

            I feel ya.

            At the beginning of Fable last year, my 10 year old didn't like doing Classical Composition and I agonized by her side about synonyms and sequence of events and blah blah blah. By the end of the year, she was breezing through it by herself, doing wonderfully (don't get me wrong, she'd rather be outside playing, but she did it - without pout faces and moans). I think the reason why is, in fact, it IS imitative. There is structure and clear expectations. So, like KF2000 said, after going through the rewriting of the fable multiple times, the child can get up on that bicycle and ride it without the training wheels. To that point, towards the end of the year, my girl had her own "Fable Book" going, pages and pages of different fables. I read through the first 10, which were exactly like the fables in their format, plot sequence, and sentence-of-virtue-at-the-end, practiced in CC. Wish I could post her work here. It was beautiful to read a crafted story that had rich substance, written by my very own daughter who is her mother's child and lacks creative story writing ability.

            Someone, do correct me if I am wrong, but Classical Compositions is not a "creative writing program". What I mean is that though there is some creative liberty with describing a person, place, thing, or idea in the stages of CC, it is a small piece of something so much larger.

            Classical Comp. is the progymnastmata. And the progymnasmata is not a tool to make you a fun writer (though it does that, too). Classical Comp. trains the mind to think with clarity and be able to express thoughts for the intention of persuading your reader. It is more than a writing program. It's rhetoric. It's logic. It makes a good writer out of one with no potential. It makes a great writer out of a one with much. If the child is not "good" at it, it's okay. Perfectly okay. Keep practicing.

            I hope this isn't off-putting, but instead helps paint a bigger picture of liberating the mind to communicate beautiful things in a world that needs more of it. I didn't give practical advice because only you know how to reach your child's heart, take her by the hand, and walk with her. And you know when to take a seat on the bench before pressing on! We all do that on that at some point or another. But the road is a good one. #solidarity
            ~Crystal, and 6 beside

            2019-2020 school year:
            DD12 - 6th Core
            DS10 - 5th Core
            DD8 - 3rd Core
            DS6 - K @local public school
            DS6 - K @local public school
            DS3 - Smiling at everyone

            Comment


              #21
              Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

              Crystal,
              That was awesome!
              Super!
              AMDG,
              Sarah
              2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
              DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
              DS, 16
              DD, 14
              DD, 12
              DD, 10
              DD, 7.5
              DD, 5.5
              +DS+
              DS, 18 months

              Comment


                #22
                Re: If your kids hate imitation based writing...

                Originally posted by CrystalEv View Post
                I feel ya.

                At the beginning of Fable last year, my 10 year old didn't like doing Classical Composition and I agonized by her side about synonyms and sequence of events and blah blah blah. By the end of the year, she was breezing through it by herself, doing wonderfully (don't get me wrong, she'd rather be outside playing, but she did it - without pout faces and moans). I think the reason why is, in fact, it IS imitative. There is structure and clear expectations. So, like KF2000 said, after going through the rewriting of the fable multiple times, the child can get up on that bicycle and ride it without the training wheels. To that point, towards the end of the year, my girl had her own "Fable Book" going, pages and pages of different fables. I read through the first 10, which were exactly like the fables in their format, plot sequence, and sentence-of-virtue-at-the-end, practiced in CC. Wish I could post her work here. It was beautiful to read a crafted story that had rich substance, written by my very own daughter who is her mother's child and lacks creative story writing ability.

                Someone, do correct me if I am wrong, but Classical Compositions is not a "creative writing program". What I mean is that though there is some creative liberty with describing a person, place, thing, or idea in the stages of CC, it is a small piece of something so much larger.

                Classical Comp. is the progymnastmata. And the progymnasmata is not a tool to make you a fun writer (though it does that, too). Classical Comp. trains the mind to think with clarity and be able to express thoughts for the intention of persuading your reader. It is more than a writing program. It's rhetoric. It's logic. It makes a good writer out of one with no potential. It makes a great writer out of a one with much. If the child is not "good" at it, it's okay. Perfectly okay. Keep practicing.

                I hope this isn't off-putting, but instead helps paint a bigger picture of liberating the mind to communicate beautiful things in a world that needs more of it. I didn't give practical advice because only you know how to reach your child's heart, take her by the hand, and walk with her. And you know when to take a seat on the bench before pressing on! We all do that on that at some point or another. But the road is a good one. #solidarity
                Thank you for sharing this.

                Comment

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