R&S Math vs. CLE Math

[Sugarbelle]

I'm having a math dilemma with my rising 5th grader. For background, he did Singapore Math in K-3, then I moved him into CLE Math 4 this past year because his older brother did so well with going from Singapore in 1st-4th grades to CLE in 5th grade. Younger son has struggled with math a lot this year and is very frustrated, as am I. He understands each new lesson, but makes so many mistakes on review problems. I've read CLE is advanced in 4th grade, which I agree with, but then levels off in 5th. I don't know if I want to take a chance moving him ahead, though.

So has anyone switched from CLE to R&S that can compare this for me? A friend gave me a set of R&S and it seems like a lot of review from 4th grade CLE, which might not be a bad thing. I would love some advice. Thank you.

[laetjennifer]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

I recently posted about a similar yet opposite problem. For my daughter, I concluded that moving from Teaching Textbooks 4 to Rod & Staff 5 would be problematic because she was struggling and passed the Rod and Staff placement test with the lowest possible score. So, I am going to start her in R&S 4 but start the year by giving her the tests to ensure mastery and start the lessons where she begins to struggle as reflected in her scores. Perhaps you can do the same thing but use R&S 5 and commence formal lessons where he has not yet mastered the material. Doing so, your son will start R&S 6 at some point during 5th grade. I hope that made sense. lol

Jennifer

[Sugarbelle]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

Thank you, Jennifer. What you said makes perfect sense and seems like it could be a good option. I'm just unsure of whether to press on in CLE or move to R&S. I really like CLE, but this past year has been pretty hard and I don't want another year of math struggles.

[Jen (formerly) in Japan]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

We can all only give anecdotal advice, so here goes.

I started my late in life baby in R&S 1 in K, so he was starting out a math year "ahead". We were going along nicely until his 3rd grade year/R&S Math 4. He seemed to stall out with several concepts. Where he used to miss one, maybe 2 problems, for the entire day, he began to miss more.

So, I decided that it must be the math curriculum's fault (don't worry, I am laughing at myself, too). [Aside: wisdom has shown me that most of the time that a parent eagerly overshoots a placement for a child, that child will self-adjust at some point in his future. It usually shocks and unsettles that parent when it does. Not saying this is you; it's just a general observation.]


I decided that CLE seemed similar enough, although I admit I struggled to place him well. We lasted... dunno... six weeks? I found the CLE books far more complicated, less incremental, less helpful on the teaching side than R&S Math. The problem sets were tighter together and simply felt more "workbooky" than what I was used to.

I decided to place him back in R&S Math 4, although part way through the book. He re-did the book from that place forward, and has continued along beautifully. Also, since we weren't then going to align with the Core Plans math sequencing, that freed my mind to do what *we* needed. He does do math for 6 weeks in the summer, half lessons each day, along with a few other light school subjects (mostly in August). Consequently, he has just completed the 5th grade, but is in lesson 30 of R&S Math 6.


But, the best proof of all was that he took a national math exam this spring and scored above the 90th percentile for the 5th grade. He was "raised" on R&S Math alone. Personally, I am very happy with it. I like the clean lines, the incremental approach, the mastery basis, and the fact that it sticks with arithmetic. All those are pluses in my book.


But, of course, we all have our "pet" math programs. If this isn't helpful to you, feel free to ignore!



Jen

[Mom2mthj]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

Personally, I am very happy with it. I like the clean lines, the incremental approach, the mastery basis, and the fact that it sticks with arithmetic. All those are pluses in my book.


But, of course, we all have our "pet" math programs. If this isn't helpful to you, feel free to ignore!



Jen

I think there are a couple important point summed up in Jen's post.

1.Many of use different programs for math, but maybe the most important part of what makes a program "good" is that mom (or whoever is doing the teaching) understands and is comfortable with the program format, teacher helps, that sort of thing. I say this because when mom is comfortable, math gets done. Don't switch because people here (or anywhere) say to, but do follow your gut if you feel it is time to cut your losses.

2. Make the curriculum work for you. We all have to make our best guess on placement, but as Jen pointed out we all need to be aware as we go along to whether an adjustment to that placement is necessary. If your son is currently struggling in CLE it might just be that he needs to back up a bit there. You don't have to switch programs to back up and review. Whatever program you choose don't feel that you have to finish the book in a year or keep up with the plans in your curriculum guide (or be held back by them either).

3. Research and then try to stick with your choice. Many people have issues because they switch math programs a lot. Topics covered in say 4th grade are similar, but every program has its own specific scope and sequence and you do run the risk of missing things when you switch often. I'm not saying don't ever switch, my first two choices were complete duds - I swung too far to the other extreme from my first choice, but you should try to articulate what isn't working (i.e. I need a scripted lesson, I need a program with more built in review, etc) and be clear with yourself how the new program addresses the problem. Get your hands on a text and teacher manual and try teaching a couple of lessons to your child or their stuffed animals if you don't want to let them know you are thinking of switching. You might even want to look at samples of where it is going in a few year. Simply saying "it isn't working" and switching isn't likely to land you where you want to be.

Good luck on your decision.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

My older guys did CLE 300-600. It is advanced at all levels by about a year and just keeps up that pace all the way through. Did you give your son the free placement test first before placing him? For CLE especially this is very important and very important to start where the child places regardless of the number on the level. For example, my daughter took the test for 300 and could not pass even though she just finished BJU Math 4. Every program has a different sequence.

Did your guy struggle with Singapore? If not, I would go back to it. Singapore and "American" math teach very differently. If American isn't his cuppa, no biggie. The most important point is for him to understand the math and to feel successful. It may also be that the spiral method CLE employs is just a bad fit after the mastery method Singapore uses. Every child is different.

Hi Enigma,

Thank you for your help. Yes, I did give him the test before placing him. However, there were sections he didn't do well on and I got CLE's extra workbooks for those topics and worked with him on them last summer so he was up to speed.

He didn't struggle in Singapore so I'm thinking the mastery approach might fit him better. Unfortunately we can't go back to Singapore because I don't really understand how to teach it. I'm not a math person and that particular method just doesn't work for me. I didn't find the teacher guides all that helpful as my eldest moved up. CLE makes so much more sense and my son likes the explanations, but has a hard time with the review sections. He makes very careless mistakes and told me yesterday he is stupid, which is upsetting to hear because he isn't.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

[Aside: wisdom has shown me that most of the time that a parent eagerly overshoots a placement for a child, that child will self-adjust at some point in his future. It usually shocks and unsettles that parent when it does. Not saying this is you; it's just a general observation.]



I decided that CLE seemed similar enough, although I admit I struggled to place him well. We lasted... dunno... six weeks? I found the CLE books far more complicated, less incremental, less helpful on the teaching side than R&S Math. The problem sets were tighter together and simply felt more "workbooky" than what I was used to.

Hi Jen,

Thank you for responding. Yes, this could be me, but I made sure he was ready before he started CLE last fall.

After Singapore, CLE made so much more sense. I guess it depends on how we all learn and understand things. My older son has thrived with CLE so I thought it would be the same with the other kid.

[Jen (formerly) in Japan]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

Hi Jen,

My older son has thrived with CLE so I thought it would be the same with the other kid.

Ha, ha, ha... that was your first "mistake".






Jen, whose four kids are as different from each other as the four corners of a square.

[Sugarbelle]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

Ha, ha, ha... that was your first "mistake".






Jen, whose four kids are as different from each other as the four corners of a square.

Tru dat!

[KF2000]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

I think there are a couple important point summed up in Jen's post.

1.Many of use different programs for math, but maybe the most important part of what makes a program "good" is that mom (or whoever is doing the teaching) understands and is comfortable with the program format, teacher helps, that sort of thing. I say this because when mom is comfortable, math gets done. Don't switch because people here (or anywhere) say to, but do follow your gut if you feel it is time to cut your losses.

2. Make the curriculum work for you. We all have to make our best guess on placement, but as Jen pointed out we all need to be aware as we go along to whether an adjustment to that placement is necessary. If your son is currently struggling in CLE it might just be that he needs to back up a bit there. You don't have to switch programs to back up and review. Whatever program you choose don't feel that you have to finish the book in a year or keep up with the plans in your curriculum guide (or be held back by them either).

3. Research and then try to stick with your choice. Many people have issues because they switch math programs a lot. Topics covered in say 4th grade are similar, but every program has its own specific scope and sequence and you do run the risk of missing things when you switch often. I'm not saying don't ever switch, my first two choices were complete duds - I swung too far to the other extreme from my first choice, but you should try to articulate what isn't working (i.e. I need a scripted lesson, I need a program with more built in review, etc) and be clear with yourself how the new program addresses the problem. Get your hands on a text and teacher manual and try teaching a couple of lessons to your child or their stuffed animals if you don't want to let them know you are thinking of switching. You might even want to look at samples of where it is going in a few year. Simply saying "it isn't working" and switching isn't likely to land you where you want to be.

Good luck on your decision.

These are such great points of advice, Dorinda!

AMDG,
Sarah

[Sugarbelle]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

I think there are a couple important point summed up in Jen's post.

1.Many of use different programs for math, but maybe the most important part of what makes a program "good" is that mom (or whoever is doing the teaching) understands and is comfortable with the program format, teacher helps, that sort of thing. I say this because when mom is comfortable, math gets done. Don't switch because people here (or anywhere) say to, but do follow your gut if you feel it is time to cut your losses.

2. Make the curriculum work for you. We all have to make our best guess on placement, but as Jen pointed out we all need to be aware as we go along to whether an adjustment to that placement is necessary. If your son is currently struggling in CLE it might just be that he needs to back up a bit there. You don't have to switch programs to back up and review. Whatever program you choose don't feel that you have to finish the book in a year or keep up with the plans in your curriculum guide (or be held back by them either).

3. Research and then try to stick with your choice. Many people have issues because they switch math programs a lot. Topics covered in say 4th grade are similar, but every program has its own specific scope and sequence and you do run the risk of missing things when you switch often. I'm not saying don't ever switch, my first two choices were complete duds - I swung too far to the other extreme from my first choice, but you should try to articulate what isn't working (i.e. I need a scripted lesson, I need a program with more built in review, etc) and be clear with yourself how the new program addresses the problem. Get your hands on a text and teacher manual and try teaching a couple of lessons to your child or their stuffed animals if you don't want to let them know you are thinking of switching. You might even want to look at samples of where it is going in a few year. Simply saying "it isn't working" and switching isn't likely to land you where you want to be.

Good luck on your decision.

Thank you so much, Dorinda. This is great advice. I have both curriculums and am going to compare them in more detail.

This year has been very hard with this child because he doesn't like much of anything in school. I can't tell whether it is because of his age, he isn't focusing, or what the problem is. The number of mistakes he makes seems to increase each day.

[howiecram]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

We can all only give anecdotal advice, so here goes.

I started my late in life baby in R&S 1 in K, so he was starting out a math year "ahead". We were going along nicely until his 3rd grade year/R&S Math 4. He seemed to stall out with several concepts. Where he used to miss one, maybe 2 problems, for the entire day, he began to miss more.

So, I decided that it must be the math curriculum's fault (don't worry, I am laughing at myself, too). [Aside: wisdom has shown me that most of the time that a parent eagerly overshoots a placement for a child, that child will self-adjust at some point in his future. It usually shocks and unsettles that parent when it does. Not saying this is you; it's just a general observation.]


I decided that CLE seemed similar enough, although I admit I struggled to place him well. We lasted... dunno... six weeks? I found the CLE books far more complicated, less incremental, less helpful on the teaching side than R&S Math. The problem sets were tighter together and simply felt more "workbooky" than what I was used to.

I decided to place him back in R&S Math 4, although part way through the book. He re-did the book from that place forward, and has continued along beautifully. Also, since we weren't then going to align with the Core Plans math sequencing, that freed my mind to do what *we* needed. He does do math for 6 weeks in the summer, half lessons each day, along with a few other light school subjects (mostly in August). Consequently, he has just completed the 5th grade, but is in lesson 30 of R&S Math 6.


But, the best proof of all was that he took a national math exam this spring and scored above the 90th percentile for the 5th grade. He was "raised" on R&S Math alone. Personally, I am very happy with it. I like the clean lines, the incremental approach, the mastery basis, and the fact that it sticks with arithmetic. All those are pluses in my book.


But, of course, we all have our "pet" math programs. If this isn't helpful to you, feel free to ignore!



Jen

May I ask what exam it was? Were there any issues with “common Core” math solutions? My biggest worry still is, if my children need to go to school for whatever reason will they be able to assimilate? (a dear friend of mine nearly died after having a baby, was in the hospital 1 hr away and the only option was school). Her children struggled with the “new” math because they had never done math this way. (I believe she used teaching textbooks)

[Mom2mthj]

Re: R&S Math vs. CLE Math

May I ask what exam it was? Were there any issues with “common Core” math solutions? My biggest worry still is, if my children need to go to school for whatever reason will they be able to assimilate? (a dear friend of mine nearly died after having a baby, was in the hospital 1 hr away and the only option was school). Her children struggled with the “new” math because they had never done math this way. (I believe she used teaching textbooks)

Not Jen, but all of my kids have used non common core math and done just fine on standardized tests. Generally we use the TerraNova because Iowa needs proof of degree and I never thought it was worth the effort. Math is math. A standardized test is going for the answer and how you get there isn't the issue. The problem that a couple of teacher friends have said it that some of the newer math programs require the students to be able to solve problems using several different methods. I could see that as a potential challenge being dropped into school midstream, but not one I would lose sleep over. Rod and Staff isn't going to prevent them from doing well if they needed to be sent to school. There might be some topics taught in a different order or a different way, but they will be able to pick up what they need to if the necessity arises.