Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

First Form Greek follow up

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    First Form Greek follow up

    Is there going to be a Second Form Greek (and 3rd and 4th)? I notice that we will be doing Greek Alphabet in 7th grade, and that First Form Greek is suggested for 8th grade. I am just wondering where the kids go after that? I have been reading Climbing Parnassus, Norms & Nobility, and the Latin-Centered Curriculum, and have determined that my children need to learn Greek as well as Latin. I do not know if just the one year of Greek is enough, but maybe it is? If anyone knows if one year is enough that would be helpful information.
    JeJe Greer
    Mom to:
    Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, and writing)
    Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

    #2
    Re: First Form Greek follow up

    Originally posted by jejegreer View Post
    Is there going to be a Second Form Greek (and 3rd and 4th)? I notice that we will be doing Greek Alphabet in 7th grade, and that First Form Greek is suggested for 8th grade. I am just wondering where the kids go after that? I have been reading Climbing Parnassus, Norms & Nobility, and the Latin-Centered Curriculum, and have determined that my children need to learn Greek as well as Latin. I do not know if just the one year of Greek is enough, but maybe it is? If anyone knows if one year is enough that would be helpful information.
    We do plan to continue the Greek Forms Series. In fact, we recently hired someone to begin writing Second Form Greek!

    As for how much Greek is necessary, that answer probably varies but HLS requires two years of it. After that, Greek is an elective. In general, I would say to add and continue Greek as long as you have time for it, but if you have to choose one Classical language, prioritize Latin. (The main cxeption would be those whose liturgy is partially or wholly in Greek. In that case, prioritizing Greek makes more sense.)

    Comment


      #3
      Re: First Form Greek follow up

      Michael--I am SO excited to hear this!

      Jeje,
      Jessica again--sorry to be hopping onto all your threads today. I would not recommend starting Greek (First Form) until you get through at least Third Form Latin, and I think Fourth Form Latin/First Form Greek concurrently is ideal. The reasoning is really just reality and how hard it will be to move forward in two classical languages right from the get-go.

      First Form Greek is written for a Latin student. It's fully understanding the grammar from a few years of studying Latin that streamlines Greek. Even a very good Latin student is going to have to hunker down to learn much Greek beyond First Form Greek. My oldest aces his Latin but faded in the first half of Croy (what we are all using until Second Form Greek arrives). The workload just gets heavy if you are doing Latin in earnest. I asked him what was hard about it and he just said keeping up with an entirely new set of vocab. This is why I say the student has to want it. Dorinda's daughter is on fire to read Homer and is aggressively studying toward that end. I know very few others.

      Please don't hear me trying to slow you down--please hear me trying to help position Stella to be successful rather than be overwhelmed from the beginning. She is in no way behind. Cheryl Lowe started Latin at 40. Stella has 30ish years on her!

      I would suggest this sequence for (assuming she's a rising sixth grader--I'm still not clear on her actual grade)

      Sixth: First Form Latin
      Seventh: Second Form Latin
      Eighth: Third Form Latin & Greek Alphabet
      Ninth: Fourth Form Latin & First Form Greek
      Tenth: Henle 2/Caesar & Second Form Greek (yay--it would probably exist by then!)
      Eleventh: Henle 3/Cicero & Greek optional (MPOA has advanced classes as of this year)
      Twelfth: AP Latin/Virgil & Greek optional

      There is no way this is a sissy schedule! This is crazy awesome. She has all the time in the world. I agree that Latin is most important and Greek is good. I try to talk anyone into this who'll listen. AND, I know that very few homeschoolers are able to add Greek successfully. The student really has to want that second classical language. It's hard to want to do all the amazing things and know that you can't add them all in immediately. However, it is laying a slow and steady foundation that helps the student be successful later.

      The best placement might come from making a call to MP and talking through all the moving parts you have to consider. It seems you are looking at packages and sequences and seeing some of them apart from the cumulative preparation that is needed/assumed in some of those recommendations.

      Sorry if this is disappointing at all, but I think you have so much time ahead to work this out if you'll attack it slow and steady year by year. As TLS mentions in Climbing Parnassus--Latin first, and then Greek if you can. I'm paraphrasing. (I echo Michael's caveat for anyone who has liturgy in Greek.)

      Best,
      Festina lentē,
      Jessica P

      2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
      12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
      10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
      7th • HLN & Home
      4th • HLN & Home
      Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

      Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

      Comment


        #4
        Re: First Form Greek follow up

        Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
        Michael--I am SO excited to hear this!


        I would suggest this sequence for (assuming she's a rising sixth grader--I'm still not clear on her actual grade)


        Best,
        Stella is technically a rising 7th grader. Her birthday is July 25, 2006, so in Indiana (where I grew up) she would be a rising 6th grader. I think it is best for a child to be at the oldest side of a grade level. I would prefer to have her be a 6th grader. It is just uncomfortable for her because she went to public school K-2, and there she is in the 7th grade class. She is the only homeschool kid in our County who seems to be an athlete, and she is on a soccer team where she is the youngest. The rest are all going into 7th or 8th grade. It makes it hard to tell her she is supposed to drop a year, because then she is also the only 6th grader. That is why I am leaning towards 6th accelerated. She can still learn everything, but tell everyone she is in 7th grade. And yes, I realize that the kids who just completed 6th grade at the public middle school are not learning the level of material Stella has learned (even using a history-centered curriculum), but it is a real mind set with these kids that you are a certain grade instead of a certain age. They are not bad kids, and Stella has even made friends because she is a really good player (this is my quick brag time - she scored the winning goal in the championship match at the Memorial Day tournament!!!), but the public school kids are still leery of her since she is homeschooled. I fear that placing her in a higher or lower grade is going to really damage her credibility with her team. And yes, I think that being a star soccer player is every bit as important as learning Greek and Latin. The girl is amazing! She can learn anything, teach other kids anything, be the friendliest, most self-secure child I have ever met by far, and play soccer like a young Pele (well, that last part is exaggerating!). I have been on this forum for so long in the special needs area, and now I am enjoying learning from you all while not having the most difficult child in the world (in my mind, at least). I so appreciate all the help.
        JeJe Greer
        Mom to:
        Stella (8M with 9th grade literature, and writing)
        Clara (Combination of SC 5/6 and 4th New User)

        Comment


          #5
          Re: First Form Greek follow up

          Originally posted by jejegreer View Post
          Stella is technically a rising 7th grader. Her birthday is July 25, 2006, so in Indiana (where I grew up) she would be a rising 6th grader.

          Hi JeJe,

          FYI, the Department of Defense has used September 1st as the Kindergarten cut off for decades. Stella would definitely be a 6th grader who has skipped a grade.

          I have the same issue with my youngest. He has an October birthday, missed the cut off, but had been reading since 2.5 years (teaching reading is actually quite simple, after you learn how). He was reading chapter books when he was "K official", so after making my case and assessing him, they did allow him to skip to 1st. Currently, he's finishing 5th and tends to fall in the 90+ percentile, so his placement is good. For now.


          Why do I tell you this? Because, life experience. Have three older kids through or almost through college, I have noticed that once the kids get to college, it is the more mature kids who thrive while the youngers and grade skippers often bomb. I believe I mentioned here that my nephew, who was always working harder than a one armed wall paper hanger in high school to get into a top Tech school, recently flunked out of MIT. I watched how he was always on the edge of his abilities, and when he got to university, he had no reserves left to give. This took less than 3 semesters.


          Of course, you will know Stella best.


          I will tell you that I am considering "reverting" my youngest to his actual grade level before college. Yes, either 5 year high school or a long middle school. I really don't care! I now see the truth of having him embark on his college years with more maturity and confidence (yes, this is a thing!). The irony is that it might be my husband who puts the cabosh on it. You see, we are so old that adding one more year to my youngest's education will conflict with my husband's complete retirement.

          Old people problems.



          Jen
          DS, 28 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace)

          DS, 26 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, ENGAGED!

          DD, 23 yrs, graduated from The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC; 2nd grade teacher.

          DS, 13 yrs, 9th grade; attends a private classical school, 7th - 12th.

          All homeschooled for some/all of their K-12 education.

          Me: retired after 16 years of continuous homeschooling, now a high school chemistry teacher at a large Catholic high school

          Comment


            #6
            Re: First Form Greek follow up

            Originally posted by Jen (formerly) in Japan View Post
            Hi JeJe,

            FYI, the Department of Defense has used September 1st as the Kindergarten cut off for decades. Stella would definitely be a 6th grader who has skipped a grade.

            I have the same issue with my youngest. He has an October birthday, missed the cut off, but had been reading since 2.5 years (teaching reading is actually quite simple, after you learn how). He was reading chapter books when he was "K official", so after making my case and assessing him, they did allow him to skip to 1st. Currently, he's finishing 5th and tends to fall in the 90+ percentile, so his placement is good. For now.


            Why do I tell you this? Because, life experience. Have three older kids through or almost through college, I have noticed that once the kids get to college, it is the more mature kids who thrive while the youngers and grade skippers often bomb. I believe I mentioned here that my nephew, who was always working harder than a one armed wall paper hanger in high school to get into a top Tech school, recently flunked out of MIT. I watched how he was always on the edge of his abilities, and when he got to university, he had no reserves left to give. This took less than 3 semesters.


            Of course, you will know Stella best.


            I will tell you that I am considering "reverting" my youngest to his actual grade level before college. Yes, either 5 year high school or a long middle school. I really don't care! I now see the truth of having him embark on his college years with more maturity and confidence (yes, this is a thing!). The irony is that it might be my husband who puts the cabosh on it. You see, we are so old that adding one more year to my youngest's education will conflict with my husband's complete retirement.

            Old people problems.



            Jen
            Jen,

            How do you get the rising 6th who has skipped a grade with a September 1st cutoff for Jeje's daughter? I ask because I have a similar conundrum with my son whose birthday is July 27, 2005. He was 5 by September so I called him kindergarten even though I would likely have put him a young 5s program if I sent him to school or just not sent him. By the September 1st standard he should be a rising 8th grader, but I have spent the year trying to convince him and those around me that he is going to need an extra year to be ready to go away to college. My mother continues to look at me like I grew a second head when I mention it so I would love the extra ammunition so to speak. I plan to let him continue with his friends at Trail Life as if he is going into 8th this fall, but if we send him to away high school we would slip the change in at that time. He is a swimmer so it doesn't really matter for him as competitions are completely age based (down to your age on the start date of the meet) and I doubt most of the kids from different schools know what grade the others are in.
            Dorinda

            Plans for 2021-2022
            15th year homeschooling, 12th year with Memoria Press
            DD College Freshman
            DS 10th grade - Lukeion Latin and Greek, Vita Beata Greek Dramas
            DS 8th grade - Vita Beata Literature
            DS 3rd grade - Vita Beata Literature, Right Start F, First Form Latin

            Comment


              #7
              Re: First Form Greek follow up

              JeJe,

              One of my boys was born July 15, 2006 (only 10 days before Stella). He'll be 12 this year and, here in Indiana, he would normally be going into 7th grade (the cut off is August 1st now). We switched to MP just after he turned 10, but I placed him in 4th for New Users instead of 5th because, coming from a more relaxed curriculum, I knew he wasn't ready for MP's 5th. So he's going into MP6 this year and will likely graduate just before his 19th birthday (unless he decides to do some credits over the summers in high school).

              I think your idea of placing Stella in 6A is the best of both worlds: she can continue developing in skill-based subjects while working "at grade level" (which also sounds like her competency level for them) in content subjects.
              Jennifer
              Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

              2021-2022
              DS18: Almost done!
              DS17: MP, MPOA
              DS15: MP, MPOA
              DS12: Mix of SC 5/6 & SC 7/8
              DD11: Mix of 5M and SC7/8
              DD9: SC3
              DD6: MPK

              Comment


                #8
                Re: First Form Greek follow up

                Originally posted by Mom2mthj View Post
                Jen,

                How do you get the rising 6th who has skipped a grade with a September 1st cutoff for Jeje's daughter? I ask because I have a similar conundrum with my son whose birthday is July 27, 2005. He was 5 by September so I called him kindergarten even though I would likely have put him a young 5s program if I sent him to school or just not sent him. By the September 1st standard he should be a rising 8th grader, but I have spent the year trying to convince him and those around me that he is going to need an extra year to be ready to go away to college. My mother continues to look at me like I grew a second head when I mention it so I would love the extra ammunition so to speak. I plan to let him continue with his friends at Trail Life as if he is going into 8th this fall, but if we send him to away high school we would slip the change in at that time. He is a swimmer so it doesn't really matter for him as competitions are completely age based (down to your age on the start date of the meet) and I doubt most of the kids from different schools know what grade the others are in.

                Hi Dorinda,

                JeJe is calling her daughter a rising seventh grader with a July 2006 b-day, not rising 6th. That is her worry, that her daughter will feel demoted in the 6th grade curricula. At least that is what I was understanding her concern to be. Or maybe I didn't understand?

                Your son is in Trail Life?! We are just considering that for next year. I may have to pick your brain about that later (but not on this thread, obvi).



                Jen
                DS, 28 yrs, graduated from MIT (Aerospace)

                DS, 26 yrs, graduated from SIU's School of Business, ENGAGED!

                DD, 23 yrs, graduated from The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC; 2nd grade teacher.

                DS, 13 yrs, 9th grade; attends a private classical school, 7th - 12th.

                All homeschooled for some/all of their K-12 education.

                Me: retired after 16 years of continuous homeschooling, now a high school chemistry teacher at a large Catholic high school

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: First Form Greek follow up

                  Jeje,

                  Here is my two cents on Greek. It's hard, it's time consuming, but it is cool. My daughter loves it, but making it work takes rearranging subjects to be completed or at least more intensely worked on during the summer. My daughter started 1st form in 5th grade and added Attic Greek (FFG is Biblical Greek) when she was in 8th so she started concurrently with 4th form. From what I have read and from what my niece has said about taking Greek in college as a linguistics major, it is easier to go from classical (attic) to biblical than the other way. Still, she does it a year at a time and if she wanted to drop it at this point it would be up to her.

                  The problem I see with Jessica's schedule isn't the challenge of the schedule, but is the unknown of when second form Greek will actually be ready (FFG took a long time to arrive) and how many levels are in the works to get through the grammar. My daughter started Greek at the time FFG was actually introduced and is now through the Greek grammar and starting a full translation year in the fall and we are still likely 2 years out from Second Form Greek. Also, it is just very hard to learn Greek at home. Without the external motivation of a teacher or tutor it is too easy to just let it fall by the wayside. I would suggest starting with the forms and see how far you get before you feel you need help. Just know it is totally doable to get through AP Latin starting where she is right now, but specifics will depend on when you start to need a teacher. Mentally target 8th or 9th grade for a year or two of Greek to test how well she likes it. That gives her time to continue if she loves it or change out Greek for a modern language if it isn't her thing.
                  Dorinda

                  Plans for 2021-2022
                  15th year homeschooling, 12th year with Memoria Press
                  DD College Freshman
                  DS 10th grade - Lukeion Latin and Greek, Vita Beata Greek Dramas
                  DS 8th grade - Vita Beata Literature
                  DS 3rd grade - Vita Beata Literature, Right Start F, First Form Latin

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: First Form Greek follow up

                    Agreeing with you, Dorinda. Good point on the timeline. If you all (Jeje & Stella) are really into Greek after First Form Greek, then the online academy will have something (for Koine) or you can find other programs for Attic online as well. I echo the necessity for a knowledgeable teacher. I have a minor in Koine and I had to hang on by the skin on my teeth near the end. My professor would always talk about Latin (which none of us knew) and would drive us crazy with it. Now I know why! Haha!

                    Once you have a few years of Latin under your belt you can investigate Greek and which type you want. Then that will help determine your path.

                    ETA: On age and grade, as Jennifer mentioned the grade and the curriculum package don't have to match. Regardless of age, students should be placed correctly academically and according to sequence in the material. We're in TN and my three oldest kids are younger side for their "grade" but they are very long time MPers so they have been well prepared for the material. Coming to it fresh means you have to assess across subjects. If you've not already, I do strongly suggest a phone consultation with MP to get a comprehensive plan in place that you can feel confident about. Then, ultimately, it's getting the materials and working through year by year. They aren't magic, but they are very good when used faithfully.
                    Last edited by pickandgrin; 06-04-2018, 09:09 AM.
                    Festina lentē,
                    Jessica P

                    2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                    12th • AP Latin online, DE Calculus & Physics, HLN
                    10th • HLN, Latin online, MPOA
                    7th • HLN & Home
                    4th • HLN & Home
                    Me • Third Form for Adults, MPOA; teaching TFL and co-directing @

                    Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: First Form Greek follow up

                      This probably isn't exactly helpful, but I wanted to share my experience teaching Latin and Greek at the same time. When we began our homeschooling journey, I knew I would want to tackle Latin. We began homeschool in the public school range of first grade. We joined Classical Conversations, and started memorizing just the declension and conjugation endings. I had had Latin in high school so this method of memorizing just the endings drove me bonkers! My son wanted to learn more and didn't understand that the endings weren't words. We picked up Song School Latin I because CC recommended it. We did Song School Latin II, and Latin for Children Primer A. My son asked for Greek after seeing the ad on the SSII book. I picked up the Greek Code Cracker for him to do along with LFC Primer A.

                      Lest I sound like I'm endorsing "the other guy," fast forward 2-3 years. About the time CC Foundations students move up to the next tier, we discontinued our participation. I found that we didn't really mesh theologically with the program, AND continuing on their path would seriously limit my son's ability to meander into other studies like Greek. The other point I'm making with this background information is that I didn't have sound advice of how to go about studying the two languages together. I just used the materials suggested by the CC program. In hindsight, these products kindled a love of languages in my son, but I can't say he really learned a lot. He learned A LOT of vocabulary, but not necessarily how it functions.

                      For 2017-18, I considered him a fifth grader. We did First Form Latin, and Elementary Greek Year 1. It was fabulous for us! All of his previous "baby years" of Latin really came together in a logical and productive way. I am beyond pleased with his progress! As for the Greek, he is still loving it and he feels like he is progressing in a mature way. The EG is very gentle. He is able to compare it to Latin and has had very little confusion with the vocab. Because he is pretty young yet, I plan to put him through the whole EG set before moving to First Form Greek. I think it'll build his confidence. We'll still have time for Croy or Second Form Greek, if he wants to continue Greek.

                      I can appreciate that it may not remain this peaceful and productive as we progress and things get really hard. However, I thought it might be worthwhile to hear a different perspective. My kiddo seems to love languages. I didn't really know any better, and I encouraged him to try it. I'm glad I did.
                      Rae

                      DS12- SFL, Elem Greek II, CC III

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X