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Third Form, Lesson 17, drill E

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  • amyco
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    Thanks! We are glad to have that straightened out.

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  • Michael
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    Thank you, I am feeling better!

    I completely missed that illi in the reading. We don't teach that ille can mean he, she, it, or they, and will change that sentence. Henle is correct, though. If you think about it, what the Romans are really saying is "those (people)" where "people" is understood.

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  • amyco
    replied
    Hope you are all better! We took a few days off too so I am just getting back to this. Thank you for the explanation of nos. 8 and 10.

    Re ille being used as a third person pronoun, in the Reading section it is translated as such.

    "Illi propter aquae celeritatem diligenter nataverunt" is translated as "they swam..." in the TM. Also it is used this way in an earlier sentence, which is why we looked it up in Henle. Then on the Lesson XVII test all the uses are clearly translated as "those Romans" or similar--i.e., not as third person pronoun.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Amy,

    First, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you. I have been out sick for the past several days.

    In no. 8 "that" refers to the fact that the Romans would no longer fight. In no. 10, "that" refers to how it was hard to obtain supplies. The neuter of ille can be used to refer to "that thing" or idea, so that is probably why the neuter was used here. Nos. 8 and 10 in particular are very confusing, though, so we may need to add an explanatory note or change them slightly.

    As for illi being translated as a 3rd person pronoun, are you referring to no. 5 in the translation section of Lesson 17? In that sentence illi is modifying Romani and should be translated "Those Romans..."

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  • amyco
    replied
    Thank you, the explanation of indefinite pronouns in English does help. I still don't understand why "illud" was used for nos. 8 and 10 in this exercise. What are the antecedents?

    Also, in the translation exercise, "illi" is used as a third person personal pronoun, which I understand from Henle is acceptable, but no mention of that is made in the Third Form TM.

    Thanks,
    Amy

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  • Michael
    replied
    Amy,

    The indefinite pronouns are whoever, someone, anyone, etc. They are indefinite because they refer to "an unidentified, generic, or unfamiliar person or thing" (Merriam-Webster.com). In this sense they are similar to the indefinite article a/an.

    Illud is a form of ille, illa, illud, which is a demonstrative pronoun meaning that, those. It is referring to something specific (e.g. that person, that thing) and is not an indefinite pronoun.

    I hope this helps!

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  • amyco
    started a topic Third Form, Lesson 17, drill E

    Third Form, Lesson 17, drill E

    Question about indefinite pronouns. What are they, exactly? Is that when the pronoun does not have a definite or clear antecedent? The intro to Unit III says indefinite pronouns won't be covered until Fourth Form, and I could not find information about them in the Henle grammar book.

    We noticed the singular neuter form (illud) was used in nos. 8 and 10. Just trying to understand! Thanks for any help!

    Amy
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