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English Grammar Recitation I Questions

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    English Grammar Recitation I Questions

    I'm terrible at grammar, it never made any sense to me in elementary/middle school and I managed to avoid/ignore it the rest of my education- through several college degrees. As an adult I still feel painfully inadequate and uninformed in grammar so I've been working through English Grammar Recitation I to try to gain a mastery of the subject before my kids reach it in their education.


    I feel just like a frustrated 7th grader again. Please help.


    End Marks Rule #4 states: "Use a question mark at the end of a question." Doesn't that mean that questions need to end in question marks? Yet some of the "Grammar Questions" end in periods (e.g. Grammar Question #5 Give the four types of sentences classified by purpose with definitions.). Is that a question? It's labeled as a question, but it doesn't end in a question mark. Is it a imperative sentence since it gives a command and ends in a period? Or is it an interrogative sentence since it is listed as a question? Is there any steadfast relationship between the punctuation at the end of a sentence and the type of sentence?

    Lesson 8, Practice A, Question 1. "The students liked to play outside during their recess." Is "outside" a preposition in that sentence? If "in the gym" were substituted for "outside" would gym be a noun?

    Grammar Recitation #8. "Nouns may be common or proper, concrete or abstract, collective, and compound." Are only (common or proper) and (concrete or abstract) mutually exclusive? Could there be, for example, a noun that is common, concrete, and collective? I'm trying to read the rule like a menu "soup or salad, potato or rice, and vegetable". But can a noun be both abstract and common (or proper)? Because "idea" is missing from the definition of a common and proper noun, so I think it's covered under an abstract noun. Except idea is not listed under the definition of an abstract noun either, just ideal. I find this so incredibly confusing, can someone draw a Venn diagram or flow chart?

    Are all nouns that are capitalized proper nouns? Or is it only that all proper nouns are capitalized?

    How do you know what grammar rule takes precedent? For instance in Lesson 7, Practice A, Question 1 "Look at the beautiful waterfall!" the teachers manual says this is an imperative sentence. Why is it imperative and not exclamatory? If it was written "What a beautiful waterfall, look at it!" would it be imperative still?

    Should I be using Grammar Recitation in parallel with Latin Christiana?

    Bonus: where are my grammatical and punctuation errors in typing this? (I think punctuation is a subset of grammar, so that is a redundantly worded question?)
    DD 5, MP K/1
    DD 3, MK Preschool

    #2
    An interrogative sentence is a sentence that ask a question and always ends with a question mark. The Grammar Question #5 is an imperative sentence that gives a command and ends with a period.
    Yes, there is a steadfast relationship between the punctuation at the end of a sentence and the type of sentence. As I started with, an interrogative sentence is always a sentence asking a question and requires a question mark at the end. A sentence that has an exclamation in it may have a period or an exclamation point for emphasis. (your voice usually raises at the end of the sentence)

    In Lesson 8, Practice A, Question 1: Students/play/outside is the skeleton of the sentence. "... during their recess" is a prepositional phrase. If "in the gym" were substituted - it's where - so, this would be
    an adverb phrase. An adverb tells how many, where...

    I will finish replying at a later time. Hope it's helpful.

    Comment


      #3
      It sounds like you're actually very attuned to the nuances of English grammar and that is leading to overwhelm!

      Bonus: where are my grammatical and punctuation errors in typing this? (I think punctuation is a subset of grammar, so that is a redundantly worded question?)

      Your post looks about normal for a busy mom typing in her spare time; but since you seem to be a serious student of these things, I've taken a shot at marking your post. I'm sure someone will correct me somewhere though!
      Answers and edits are below:

      Originally posted by Mom of Belle Sisters;n111402

      End Marks Rule #4 states: "Use a question mark at the end of a question." Doesn't that mean that questions need to end in question marks? Yet some of the "Grammar Questions" end in periods (e.g. Grammar Question #5 [B
      [insert colon] [/B]Give the four types of sentences classified by purpose with definitions. [you only need the period after the last parenthesis]). Is that a question? It's labeled as a question, but it doesn't end in a question mark. Is it a imperative sentence since it gives a command and ends in a period? Or is it an interrogative sentence since it is listed as a question? Is there any steadfast relationship between the punctuation at the end of a sentence and the type of sentence?

      Yes, they're called Grammar Questions but most are in the form of imperative statements. MP would have to give the reasoning for how they're named...I assume it has something to do with the traditional/historical vocabulary of recitation. The punctuation must always match the type of sentence (see last note below for clarification on exclamatory/imperative sentences).

      Lesson 8, Practice A, Question 1. [use colon instead of period] "The students liked to play outside during their recess." Is "outside" a preposition in that sentence? If "in the gym" were substituted for "outside" would gym be a noun?

      Here, "outside" is an adverb because it is answering "where" the action of the verb took place. If "in the gym" was substituted, it would be classified as a prepositional phrase because it begins with a preposition, but its FUNCTION would be as an adverb because it is still answering "where" the action of the verb took place. The word "gym" would be a noun that is used in a prepositional phrase which is functioning as an adverb. Remember that there is a difference between what kind of word/phrase you have and what its job is in the sentence.

      Grammar Recitation #8. "Nouns may be common or proper, concrete or abstract, collective, and compound." Are only (common or proper) [no need for parentheses] and (concrete or abstract) mutually exclusive? Could there be, for example, a noun that is common, concrete, and collective? I'm trying to read the rule like a menu [insert colon, or use i.e.,] "soup or salad, potato or rice, and vegetable". But can a noun be both abstract and common (or proper)? Because [delete "because" as it makes the sentence into a fragment due to the use of "so" later on] "idea" is missing from the definition of a common and proper noun, so I think it's covered under an abstract noun. Except idea is not listed under the definition of an abstract noun either, just ideal. I find this so incredibly confusing, can someone draw a Venn diagram or flow chart?

      Yes, nouns can be in multiple categories. The only categories that are mutually exclusive are concrete/abstract and common/proper. For example:

      geese = common, concrete, and collective
      Beauty (in its philosophical sense) = proper and abstract
      teammates = common, concrete, collective, and compound

      "Idea" would be included in the definition of an abstract noun. From Google: "As an adjective, ideal describes this ultimate standard for excellence, or something that exists only as an idea."



      Are all nouns that are capitalized proper nouns? Or is it only that all proper nouns are capitalized?

      Only proper nouns are capitalized, but common nouns that are part of a name/title become proper nouns (and are therefore capitalized) in the context of that name/title.

      How do you know what grammar rule takes precedent? For instance in Lesson 7, Practice A, Question 1 "Look at the beautiful waterfall!" the teachers manual says this is an imperative sentence. [Here, I would change the sentence to read as follows: In Lesson 7, Practice A, Question 1, the Teacher's Manual says that the following sentence is imperative: "Look at the beautiful waterfall!"] Why is it imperative and not exclamatory? If it was written [insert comma before quotes] "What a beautiful waterfall, look at it!" would it be imperative still?

      An exclamatory sentence is one that shows great emotion, but an imperative sentence can show great emotion (and thus end with an exclamation mark). Since the command of the sentence is more important than the emotion with which it is given, it is classified as an imperative sentence despite the emotion with which it is given and its use of an exclamation point. The purpose of the sentence determines the classification of the sentence.

      Should I be using Grammar Recitation in parallel with Latin Christiana?

      For an adult, I would pair it with First Form as that is a more sequential treatment whereas Latina Christiana is an introductory course for exposure.

      HTH!!
      Last edited by jen1134; 04-15-2019, 10:10 AM.
      Jennifer
      Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

      2019-2020 Plans:

      DS16
      MP10 Lit, MP-Holt Biology, Light to the Nations II, Spanish
      MPOA: Algebra I, High School Comp II

      DS15
      As above, plus:
      MP Greek Tragedies; no Spanish
      MPOA: Fourth Form Latin

      DS12: 7M subbing Sea to Shining Sea for American history

      DS11: Simply Classical Level 4

      DD9: 3A, with First Form Latin (long story!)

      DD7/8: Simply Classical Level 3

      DD 4/5: Simply Classical Level C (NT using SC for two-year PreK due to January birthday)

      Comment


        #4
        Good afternoon Mom of Belle Sisters,

        It looks like texas_mama and jen1134 have already answered most of your questions! I’ll see if I can clarify any further and address your remaining unanswered questions.

        Originally posted by Mom of Belle Sisters View Post
        Is there any steadfast relationship between the punctuation at the end of a sentence and the type of sentence?
        Yes, there is a relationship between a sentence’s type and its punctuation. Declarative and imperative sentences will end with periods, while interrogative sentences will end with question marks and exclamatory sentences will end with exclamation marks. The tricky part is that an exclamatory sentence “expresses strong feeling” (GQ #5), and one can make a statement, give a command, or ask a question with strong feeling. If one does, then the sentence will in a sense “become” an exclamatory sentence. Here are some examples from Rod & Staff English 7 (p. 52):

        >The electricity went off. (statement with a period, declarative) vs. The electricity went off! (statement with an exclamation mark, exclamatory)
        >Where’s the lantern? (question with a question mark, interrogative) vs. Where’s the lantern! (question with an exclamation mark, exclamatory)
        >Light it quickly. (command with a period, imperative) vs. Light it quickly! (command with an exclamation mark, exclamatory)

        Because English Grammar Recitation I is designed to be used in the 3rd and 4th grades, we do not go into this level of detail in our program, which is why I quoted from Rod & Staff’s 7th grade English program. (It is so detailed and thorough that I still reference it as an adult!) This brings me to your next question:

        Originally posted by Mom of Belle Sisters View Post
        How do you know what grammar rule takes precedent? For instance in Lesson 7, Practice A, Question 1 "Look at the beautiful waterfall!" the teachers manual says this is an imperative sentence. Why is it imperative and not exclamatory? If it was written "What a beautiful waterfall, look at it!" would it be imperative still?
        Technically yes, the sentence in the workbook is exclamatory, though at the level of EGR I (3rd/4th grade), “Imperative” would also be an acceptable answer. We will add “exclamatory” as a possible answer or rewrite the sentence so it can only be exclamatory or imperative.

        To address your rewrite of the sentence, you actually have two sentences run together: “What a beautiful waterfall!” and “Look at it!/Look at it.” The former must be exclamatory while the latter could be exclamatory or imperative depending on the punctuation.

        Originally posted by Mom of Belle Sisters View Post
        End Marks Rule #4 states: "Use a question mark at the end of a question." Doesn't that mean that questions need to end in question marks? Yet some of the "Grammar Questions" end in periods ….
        In the case of the “grammar questions,” you are correct that many of these are not interrogative sentences but rather imperative sentences since they command the student to give a response. In that sense, “grammar prompts” might have been a more accurate name for these “questions.” However, I believe that Cheryl Lowe chose to call them “questions” because the form of her book is a catechism. (See the Introduction, 6th paragraph, in either the handbook or the EGR I Student Book/Teacher Manual.) She may also have been relying on the more general definition of a question, “A sentence, phrase, or gesture that seeks information through a reply” (American Heritage Dictionary), as all of her grammar questions do seek information from the student.

        Originally posted by Mom of Belle Sisters View Post
        Should I be using Grammar Recitation in parallel with Latin Christiana?
        The entire EGR program is written with the assumption that the student is also using a grammar-based Latin program. The latter will be the primary means of teaching grammar; the former simply ensures students can apply what they learn in Latin to English. EGR also teaches English-only concepts such as articles. You clearly want to finally “get” English grammar, which is awesome! Since that is your goal, and if you do not want to add Latin, you may want to choose a different English grammar program. As mentioned above, Rod & Staff 7 or 8 would be an excellent option.
        I hope all of the answers you’ve received have helped. If you need further assistance, or anything is still unclear, please don’t hesitate to ask.
        Michael
        Memoria Press

        Comment

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