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Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

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    Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

    #3 on Drill E of Worksheet 4, Lesson 5, Second Form Latin:

    Answer key says the gen. plural of panis, panis is 'panum', but I thought it should be 'panium' (unless there is some exception I don't know).

    Thanks,

    Brenda

    #2
    Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

    Originally posted by omma View Post
    #3 on Drill E of Worksheet 4, Lesson 5, Second Form Latin:

    Answer key says the gen. plural of panis, panis is 'panum', but I thought it should be 'panium' (unless there is some exception I don't know).

    Thanks,

    Brenda
    You are correct. Panis is an i-stem but we accidentally said it was NOT an i-stem in the Teacher Manual and thus put panum instead of panium in the Workbook. We will get this fixed and I apologize for the confusion.
    Michael
    Memoria Press

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

      Can you check this again please? This is not how we learned it in First Form. We learned panis in lesson 22 of First form with the stem pan- as a 3rd declension m/f noun, not pani- as a 3rd declension i-stem noun. If it is a 3rd declension i-stem noun, then the lesson in FFL is wrong, including all of the workbook answers for that book that reference that word.

      Thanks for clarifying this.

      Kristin

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

        Originally posted by klwalukas View Post
        Can you check this again please? This is not how we learned it in First Form. We learned panis in lesson 22 of First form with the stem pan- as a 3rd declension m/f noun, not pani- as a 3rd declension i-stem noun. If it is a 3rd declension i-stem noun, then the lesson in FFL is wrong, including all of the workbook answers for that book that reference that word.

        Thanks for clarifying this.

        Kristin
        Kristin,

        An i-stem is simply a 3rd declension noun whose genitive plural ends in -ium instead of -um. The stem of an i-stem does not necessarily end in the letter i, e.g. pars is an i-stem and its stem is part-. So in FF, we taught panis as a regular 3rd-declension noun. However, we should have noted that it was an i-stem, but the only form that affects is the gen. pl., which should be panium, not panum. Every other form doesn't change, (e.g. the gen sing. stays panis, the dat. sing. stays pani, the acc. sing. stays panem, etc.). I-stems only differ in the genitive pl. so all of the workbook answers are still correct except for ones where the answer would be in the genitive plural. Does that make sense?
        Michael
        Memoria Press

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

          Is it incorrect thinking to view panis, panis as having the stem of pan-
          hostis, hostis with stem of host-
          caedes, caedis with stem of caed-
          collis, collis with stem of coll-

          ...and yet know that one must ADD the i-stem to the gen. pl. if the number of syllables in the dictionary entry (ie. the nom. sg. and the gen. sg.) is the same? Thus, I know that the gen. pl. of the above words must be panium, hostium, caedium, collium because they all have two syllables in the dictionary entry. This is UNLESS there is a noted exception to the rule, as in mater, matris going to matrum (and not matrium) in the gen. pl. even though there are two syllables in the dictionary entry).

          Of course, the other rule is to add the i-stem if the stem of the gen. sg. has two final consonants...as in gens, gentis going to gentium; pars, partis going to partium, etc.

          But I do not think of the stem as being 'parti-', for example. I think of the stem as being 'part-', but that I need to add the i-stem ending to the gen. pl. because of the final two consonant rule in the gen. sg. stem.

          Hope this is clearer than mud. I love studying and conversing about Latin Grammar, although I am still pretty new to it!!!

          Brenda

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

            Originally posted by omma View Post
            Is it incorrect thinking to view panis, panis as having the stem of pan-
            hostis, hostis with stem of host-
            caedes, caedis with stem of caed-
            collis, collis with stem of coll-

            ...and yet know that one must ADD the i-stem to the gen. pl. if the number of syllables in the dictionary entry (ie. the nom. sg. and the gen. sg.) is the same? Thus, I know that the gen. pl. of the above words must be panium, hostium, caedium, collium because they all have two syllables in the dictionary entry. This is UNLESS there is a noted exception to the rule, as in mater, matris going to matrum (and not matrium) in the gen. pl. even though there are two syllables in the dictionary entry).

            Of course, the other rule is to add the i-stem if the stem of the gen. sg. has two final consonants...as in gens, gentis going to gentium; pars, partis going to partium, etc.

            But I do not think of the stem as being 'parti-', for example. I think of the stem as being 'part-', but that I need to add the i-stem ending to the gen. pl. because of the final two consonant rule in the gen. sg. stem.

            Hope this is clearer than mud. I love studying and conversing about Latin Grammar, although I am still pretty new to it!!!

            Brenda
            Exactly, Brenda. The stem is found as normal by dropping the genitive singular ending. All you have to do is remember to add that i in the genitive plural.
            Michael
            Memoria Press

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

              Thank you for explaining! May I suggest that you remove panis and canis from that lesson in FFL or add a note explaining this there. It is pretty confusing to have to relearn part of those declensions, although now it seems clear after looking at the 3rd declension lesson in SFL. Am I correct in assuming that canis is the same way, and that we learned that one wrong too? I have gone back and looked in our FFL guides, and all of our answers for gen. pl. for panis and canis say panum* and canum*, not panium* and canium*. So there are several mistakes to correct in the answer guide for FFL to make it consistent between the forms.
              Thanks again!
              Kristin

              *edited to fix my typos!
              Last edited by klwalukas; 10-07-2015, 09:08 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                Originally posted by klwalukas View Post
                Thank you for explaining! May I suggest that you remove panis and canis from that lesson in FFL or add a note explaining this there. It is pretty confusing to have to relearn part of those declensions, although now it seems clear after looking at the 3rd declension lesson in SFL. Am I correct in assuming that canis is the same way, and that we learned that one wrong too? I have gone back and looked in our FFL guides, and all of our answers for gen. pl. for panis and canis say panem and canem, not paniem and caniem. So there are several mistakes to correct in the answer guide for FFL to make it consistent between the forms.
                Thanks again!
                Kristin
                Only panis is incorrect. Canis is a regular 3rd-declension m/f noun even though it has the same number of syllables in the nominative and genitive singular. And we will definitely either remove panis from FF or keep it, add a note, and fix all the typos in the genitive plural. Again, I apologize for the confusion.
                Michael
                Memoria Press

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                  Ok, thank you again.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                    Hi Michael,

                    I was just looking over First Form Latin Lesson XXI as I am helping a tutor this afternoon to prepare to teach 3rd Decl. Nouns. I was surprised to find pater, patris as the model noun for 3rd Decl. In Henle, this noun is mentioned as an exception, since normally if the gen. sg. stem ends in 2 consonants, it must be an i-stem that requires the -ium ending in the gen. pl. My opinion is that this model noun could be confusing to beginning Latin students, although I understand how it matches the Latin saying of 'alma mater'. I think it sets up the student to have more difficulty understanding the i-stem rules later on.

                    Brenda
                    Last edited by omma; 10-13-2015, 12:03 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                      Originally posted by omma View Post
                      Hi Michael,

                      I was just looking over First Form Latin Lesson XXI as I am helping a tutor this afternoon to prepare to teach 3rd Decl. Nouns. I was surprised to find pater, patris as the model noun for 3rd Decl. In Henle, this noun is mentioned as an exception, since normally if the gen. sg. stem ends in 2 consonants, it must be an i-stem that requires the -ium ending in the gen. pl. My opinion is that this model noun could be confusing to beginning Latin students, although I understand how it matches the Latin saying of 'alma mater'. I think it sets up the student to have more difficulty understanding the i-stem rules later on.

                      Brenda
                      Thank you for your thoughtful suggestion. I am not sure why Cheryl chose pater so let me run your thoughts by her and get back to you.
                      Michael
                      Memoria Press

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                        Okay, I spoke with Cheryl, and she chose pater because she wanted a word that 1) had natural gender and 2) was easy to say. (Pater, patris, patri easily rolls off the tongue.) In her experience, children have not had any more difficulty with i-stems because they learned pater as a model noun. In the Form Series, i-stems are not introduced until Second Form and Cheryl's students simply learned the i-stems in that book, their model noun (pars), and moved on. My own experience was the same. I learned pater, then learned the i-stems, and later, when I switched to the Henle text, I remember skimming the section on 3rd declension nouns and realizing, "Oh, pater is an exception" and that is all I thought about it. By that point, I already had the i-stems in one part of my brain, the non i-stems in another, and while the i-stem rules helped when I saw an unfamiliar noun, they never confused the nouns I already knew.

                        Does this address your concern?
                        Michael
                        Memoria Press

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                          Thanks for taking the time to share all these insights. I can see how that should work if someone is just using the Form Series. But if they wanted to use the Form Series as a supplement to Henle (ie. as in Classical Conversations, which I am encouraging people to do), then, in those cases, it could be a bit confusing. But I am sure they will adjust.

                          Thanks again,
                          Brenda

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Second Form Lesson 5, worksheet 4, Drill E correction

                            Brenda,

                            I too recommend First and Second Form Latin to CC families. We have so many people come up to us at conventions in a panic over beginning Henle or in despair over their 7th graders' poor performance in Henle. So I began recommending that they do First Form in 5th grade and Second Form in 6th. This summer, I talked with many families who had followed this plan (or even just First Form in 6th grade before Henle), and they said it made all the difference in the world. It made their students more confident Henle students and took the fear and intimidation away.

                            Tanya

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