Help for my ninth grader

[Kristi B]

My daughter began Classical Composition "late". We began using it when she was in late sixth grade and jumped in with the accelerated narrative/C&M lesson plans. (Before that, she did IEW for two years and then a half-year of Writing with Skill, from Well-Trained Mind.) So she finished C&M in grade 7, Ref/Con in grade 8, and is doing Common Topic in grade 9, but honestly, composition often ends up last on our list of things to do after literature, Latin, etc., and so we haven't made much progress.

I've heard parents say that as long as you get through Common Topic, you will be good. But my daughter is struggling with academic writing, especially writing about the Central One idea in literature, but also in classical studies, and in science and history as well. Anything longer than a paragraph is hard for her to flesh out. I'm wondering if I should seek out a "how to write an academic essay" course outside of Memoria, but I would much rather keep everything simple and in the MP family where it dovetails so nicely - plus, her brother is four years behind her (and on schedule with composition thus far, doing Narrative in grade 5), and I don't want to create the same problems for him.

Our plan is to continue through Common Topic this year and do Level VI next year in tenth grade. I'm not even sure of my exact question, except that it feels like Composition is our weakest area right now, not because of the curriculum (which I think is fabulous) but maybe because of how I'm implementing it? We have the DVDs, but she prefers to just use the book (including me using the teacher guide). If we continue as we are, will her academic writing catch up? Are there points along the way where I should assign her a research paper, or is that included in the curriculum and I just haven't noticed it?

Just to add - I love writing and have always been good at it, and used to teach ESOL students how to write, but I'm finding myself floundering with my own children. And my daughter is wonderful with poetry and creative writing. It's the academic assignments that are giving her a hard time.

Abigail Johnson, I see that you are active in this area of the forums and would love your input.

[jen1134]

I'm sure Mrs. Johnson will have great feedback for you. I just wanted to share that it's not your implementation. Some kids simply have a harder time transferring the tools they've learned in CC, to writing that is outside of the CC models. My current high schooler took HS Comp with Mrs. Johnson, received excellent grades, and still had this difficulty. Last month (our school year starts in January), I gave him the Rhetoric Essay Template from the upper school lit guides and that was all he needed to be able to put it all together. I allow him to have a copy of that blank template for all essay assignments, including tests, but I don't think he used it on his most recent test and I was able to see his CC style come through in his Beowulf essay. It's not graded yet, nor is it perfect, but this is a far cry from what his literature/history essays looked like before he saw the template.

1. Write an essay in which you analyze and describe Beowulf as a hero and/or king:

He was considered mighty and beloved by his people for his feats against sea monsters and his valor in war, but most of all is he praised for his aiding of the Danes of Heorot and his own people.

When Beowulf heard of Grendel attacking the people of Heorot and sailed across the sea without a second thought. He outwitted the monster that the greatest warriors of the Danes couldn't, wrestling with it in the hall without sword or shield and defeated the beast. When Grendel’s mother came for revenge on Heorot for the death of her son and killed Hrothgar’s advisor and friend, Beowulf sprang from the hall and chased the monster to her lair. He battled her beneath the earth without aid, and slew her, bringing the head of Grendel back to Heorot as a trophy for the Danes. He then went home, and ruled the Geats for fifty years, treating them not as subjects but as his children. With a father’s fierce love for his children he sallied forth when the fire dragon came and set fire to his lands and people. Even in his age and frailty the spirit of the warrior burned bright and he fought the dragon and sent it to its doom with the help of loyal Wiglaf. Though he desired to depart from the world in peace, fate decreed otherwise and the dragon fatally wounded him, causing his death, but not before he set his people free and gave them peace.

The Geats mourned their beloved king and set him under a mighty mound with his treasures. People do not mourn nor set monuments in place for those they do not consider worthy but rather cast their body over the cliff into the depths of the sea. Beowulf was the best of kings to the Geats and called beloved for his mighty deeds in defending them, and as a worthy neighbor to the Danes for his deliverance of them from evil.

[Abigail Johnson]

Hi Kristi!

Thanks for your post! There is a lot of good conversation here! We could write volumes, really!
1) GOOD for you for persevering! It's hard to pick up those later stages without a lot of good old sweat!
2) Writing is a process, and the way the models and the discrete skills in CC work is to offer, together, both the creative thought invention and the rhetorically pleasing complexity as a proper expression of eloquent writing. Great thoughts expressed eloquently, to be more succinct. I would not say that your 9th grader is very behind, but I see your concern that she is struggling to produce good thoughts eloquently in other areas, so let's see if we cannot give some extra assistance to make the most of her time left in high school. It is good to remember that CC is the "pro"-gymnasmata, the "before" exercises. They are supposed to be followed by a full Rhetoric course, or at least writing in other subjects. It sounds like you are doing the latter, so you are well on your way!
We certainly do not say that those who do not get all the way through Rhetoric cannot reap huge benefits. It also doesn't mean that upper level writers cannot use them both together, either. Encomium, just after CT, is a full rhetorical paper, actually, which is a huge jump in complexity, one that has taken me years to appreciate more fully. In E/I/C students are absolutely pressed to write to a central, cohesive theme. (Much like a One Central Idea of some of the Lit books) I see much growth in their connectivity in this stage. For this reason, I would recommend continuing through Encomium/Invective/Comparison (one book) at least. Common Topic is a manufactured "theater" of a jury; in a way it is still play-acting, still pretend. E/I/C is a full-scale rhetorical paper, as I said, which challenges students to have structure where it is not quite so clear what sentence "exactly" to use, as it is in Common Topic.
I would also ask, if your daughter prefers to follow the book instead of be instructed, how closely she is using the models for content, but yet how much she is at the same time using different heads of purpose and reasoning. I call it "sifting the structure from the content." To use the directions more heavily than the model, HOP's and HOD's would tend to lead to a student's lessening of development in the critical thinking areas that the program was really designed to develop.

Now I do not know your student at all, but I will also say that, in 9th grade, students are sometimes still establishing their dialectic, or logical/analytic readiness. In the dialectic stage students see big strides in self-evaluation, and your student may just need a bit more coaching to develop those things to "see" in editing and reviewing the model's applications in her writing and making use of them.

All this said, I have a novel idea for you, if you would like to consider it. I think it might be really helpful for you, and for many other parents, as we all continue to learn the best way to help our students access the treasures of Classical Comp. What I propose is this: send me one of your student's papers for Common Topic (later lesson, preferable) and also a paper from literature or history, with the prompt it is answering. I will redact any identifying information (or you can also) off of it. Then, we can record a brief session (you may use a camera, or just your mic, if you wish), and we can talk through how your student is using the model and implementing the skills, in addition to where I see places where those skills can be more integrated and realized in her other work. Then, I will make the video available to others who would like to see it as a means of learning about implementing both CC and its skills in other subjects. Of course, this is totally up to you, and we could also do it privately. I don't want to make your student self-conscious that her work is in a video. But, since I am unable to offer this resource ALL the time and still do things like cook and bathe my youngest, I see this as a possible option to get our hands dirty figuring out in a concrete manner how to really make this sparkle. I really think there is a real need for just some samples out there that show us how we are getting along and if things are going well, and if not, why. I try to cover these in Sodalitas, but sometimes we don't get this high up. We will this year though, at least through CT!

Also, I am attaching a "five paragraph essay" in terms of "Classical Composition Skills" that Jim Selby threw together on request of his own literature teachers. I hope that this resource helps with the basic organization of an essay, so we can focus on content. It does not address rhetoric, but just how to use the HOPs and HODs in the structure of a 5 paragraph essay. It also serves well for one-paragraph responses, just shorten the body section and put it all into one paragraph.

Please let me know what you think of this idea, and perhaps we can work out a time! DM would probably be best to work out details.
Happy Writing and Happy Weekend!
Abigail Johnson

[jen1134]

I'm saving it right now, but is it possible to add that outline as a download for families who are using CC?

[momgineer]

Abigail Johnson I absolutely love that video idea you are proposing, or at minimum have you make a video talking about the two papers as if you were coaching a parent but instead coaching the video. It would be glorious to see this for each level or at least Chreia/Maxim, Ref/Con, and Common Topic as that seems to be where students are aging into high school writing and needing to transfer those skills more.

[Abigail Johnson]

Hi!
It's a document I only got my hands on last Fall. I'm talking with Admin about how best to make these things available as we write them, so we don't always have to wait for new editions of books!

[Kristi B]

Hi Kristi!

Thanks for your post! There is a lot of good conversation here! We could write volumes, really!
1) GOOD for you for persevering! It's hard to pick up those later stages without a lot of good old sweat!
2) Writing is a process, and the way the models and the discrete skills in CC work is to offer, together, both the creative thought invention and the rhetorically pleasing complexity as a proper expression of eloquent writing. Great thoughts expressed eloquently, to be more succinct. I would not say that your 9th grader is very behind, but I see your concern that she is struggling to produce good thoughts eloquently in other areas, so let's see if we cannot give some extra assistance to make the most of her time left in high school. It is good to remember that CC is the "pro"-gymnasmata, the "before" exercises. They are supposed to be followed by a full Rhetoric course, or at least writing in other subjects. It sounds like you are doing the latter, so you are well on your way!
We certainly do not say that those who do not get all the way through Rhetoric cannot reap huge benefits. It also doesn't mean that upper level writers cannot use them both together, either. Encomium, just after CT, is a full rhetorical paper, actually, which is a huge jump in complexity, one that has taken me years to appreciate more fully. In E/I/C students are absolutely pressed to write to a central, cohesive theme. (Much like a One Central Idea of some of the Lit books) I see much growth in their connectivity in this stage. For this reason, I would recommend continuing through Encomium/Invective/Comparison (one book) at least. Common Topic is a manufactured "theater" of a jury; in a way it is still play-acting, still pretend. E/I/C is a full-scale rhetorical paper, as I said, which challenges students to have structure where it is not quite so clear what sentence "exactly" to use, as it is in Common Topic.
I would also ask, if your daughter prefers to follow the book instead of be instructed, how closely she is using the models for content, but yet how much she is at the same time using different heads of purpose and reasoning. I call it "sifting the structure from the content." To use the directions more heavily than the model, HOP's and HOD's would tend to lead to a student's lessening of development in the critical thinking areas that the program was really designed to develop.

Now I do not know your student at all, but I will also say that, in 9th grade, students are sometimes still establishing their dialectic, or logical/analytic readiness. In the dialectic stage students see big strides in self-evaluation, and your student may just need a bit more coaching to develop those things to "see" in editing and reviewing the model's applications in her writing and making use of them.

All this said, I have a novel idea for you, if you would like to consider it. I think it might be really helpful for you, and for many other parents, as we all continue to learn the best way to help our students access the treasures of Classical Comp. What I propose is this: send me one of your student's papers for Common Topic (later lesson, preferable) and also a paper from literature or history, with the prompt it is answering. I will redact any identifying information (or you can also) off of it. Then, we can record a brief session (you may use a camera, or just your mic, if you wish), and we can talk through how your student is using the model and implementing the skills, in addition to where I see places where those skills can be more integrated and realized in her other work. Then, I will make the video available to others who would like to see it as a means of learning about implementing both CC and its skills in other subjects. Of course, this is totally up to you, and we could also do it privately. I don't want to make your student self-conscious that her work is in a video. But, since I am unable to offer this resource ALL the time and still do things like cook and bathe my youngest, I see this as a possible option to get our hands dirty figuring out in a concrete manner how to really make this sparkle. I really think there is a real need for just some samples out there that show us how we are getting along and if things are going well, and if not, why. I try to cover these in Sodalitas, but sometimes we don't get this high up. We will this year though, at least through CT!

Also, I am attaching a "five paragraph essay" in terms of "Classical Composition Skills" that Jim Selby threw together on request of his own literature teachers. I hope that this resource helps with the basic organization of an essay, so we can focus on content. It does not address rhetoric, but just how to use the HOPs and HODs in the structure of a 5 paragraph essay. It also serves well for one-paragraph responses, just shorten the body section and put it all into one paragraph.

Please let me know what you think of this idea, and perhaps we can work out a time! DM would probably be best to work out details.
Happy Writing and Happy Weekend!
Abigail Johnson

I would absolutely love that!! I'm afraid we really haven't made much progress in Common Topic (still on the earliest lessons), but let me see if we can finish up the one she is on in the next few days. Or I could send you one of her Ref/Con essays. But YES, I would love this, and I know she won't mind either. What email should I use to communicate with you about the details?

[Abigail Johnson]

Kristi B [email protected]