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    Placement question for high schooler

    Good morning!

    I'd love your advice and opinions on what to do with my 10 grader this fall for composition.

    I plan to teach a small class to my 6th and 8th graders and two friends in the same grades covering Fable, Narrative, and Chreia/Maxim. (I obtained student books that were put together by MP to cover these 3 levels in an accelerated format for older children. I will be studying this summer and preparing myself to teach.)

    My question is about my 10 grader. I still do not have peace about what to do with him for english/composition instruction this fall.
    A bit about him:
    he is very mature
    self-disciplined
    motivated
    has done IEW for 4 years including High School Essay Intensive
    is involved in NCFCA. writes his own policy debate cases and speeches

    So considering all that I fear that he will feel "held back" with the younger kids and not happy if I include him in the composition class with everyone else. BUT I would love for him to join us next year for Ref/Con and then common topic the following year. Ugh.

    I considered letting him take IEW's Advanced Communication course on DVD. That is something he could do on his own per say and be challenged as well.

    So my question....is there any chance he could skip fable, narrative, chreia/maxim this year and jump in with us next year?? If not, then either I force him to do this class with us this year so he can do Ref/Con and Common Topic prior to graduation OR he does zero CC and I just find other programs to keep him challenged and learning.

    Thank you in advance!

    Tara


    #2
    Is MPOA an option? He could take HS Comp I in 10th, II in 11th, and III in 12th. Then he will have covered all the CC levels! Combined with all the IEW he has completed, he would have some super solid writing and rhetoric skills under his belt by graduation!
    Katie

    DS 17: Senior!
    DD 14: 10th
    DD 10: 6th
    Twin DD's 8: 3rd
    Mix of MP, Co-op, TAN and traveling the U.S

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Katie View Post
      Is MPOA an option? He could take HS Comp I in 10th, II in 11th, and III in 12th. Then he will have covered all the CC levels! Combined with all the IEW he has completed, he would have some super solid writing and rhetoric skills under his belt by graduation!
      It's really not. We just can't afford it.

      Comment


        #4
        Understand!
        The DVD's are a super helpful alternative. If he is a motivated learner and already has so much writing instruction, he could likely do several levels a year on his own, with just a bit of guidance (from the TM's) here and there from you. The first few lessons of any of the levels are a learning curve but after a few lessons and learning the new format and terms of each level, its pretty smooth sailing. All the levels are laid out beautifully predictable
        Katie

        DS 17: Senior!
        DD 14: 10th
        DD 10: 6th
        Twin DD's 8: 3rd
        Mix of MP, Co-op, TAN and traveling the U.S

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Katie View Post
          Understand!
          The DVD's are a super helpful alternative. If he is a motivated learner and already has so much writing instruction, he could likely do several levels a year on his own, with just a bit of guidance (from the TM's) here and there from you. The first few lessons of any of the levels are a learning curve but after a few lessons and learning the new format and terms of each level, its pretty smooth sailing. All the levels are laid out beautifully predictable
          I guess I have maybe thought about this option but am so new to CC I didn't know if it actually was a viable option. Since I will be preparing to teach the first 3 books to my youngers I had thought that maybe I could just do what you mentioned and move him along faster. I would just have to stay ahead in my learning and be prepared to help him. But that would also help me all the more with teaching my younger group and knowing where we were headed. Thank you for this add option to consider. :-)

          Comment


            #6
            When first starting CC, it can certainly be like learning a whole new language, but I promise..with the great teacher's manuals and DVD's, it isn't as complicated as it looks!

            And...you have the help of all these wonderful veterans on the forum..and the fabulous Mrs. Johnson who is now monitoring this forum
            Katie

            DS 17: Senior!
            DD 14: 10th
            DD 10: 6th
            Twin DD's 8: 3rd
            Mix of MP, Co-op, TAN and traveling the U.S

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Katie View Post
              When first starting CC, it can certainly be like learning a whole new language, but I promise..with the great teacher's manuals and DVD's, it isn't as complicated as it looks!

              And...you have the help of all these wonderful veterans on the forum..and the fabulous Mrs. Johnson who is now monitoring this forum
              Awh...Thank you for the encouragement and boost of confidence. I really appreciate it! I am looking forward to it and am ready to dive in! And I am so very thankful for this forum and for Mrs. Johnson giving of her time to help us mommas at home. :-)

              Comment


                #8
                Hi Katie,
                I​​​​ Am so excited you will be starting CC!
                This is a fantastic question. What I would recommend for him are two things, since MPOA is t an option right now. I would suggest a "super" accelerated program for him, using the DVD's for the Ref/Con, and then DVD's for CT and EIC next year. Then, his senior year I would put him in MPOA with Elaine Selby for HS III. The thesis/law is a pretty big undertaking that I feel is really best with a dedicated level teacher. Would it be possible for you to plan on that expense in 2 years? Also, it's completely reasonable for you to take a high schooler through the "lower stages." The difference is what you expect. It's like doing a sculpting project with. 2nd grader versus a high schooler. Natural talent aside, the expectations of technique development, mastery, effort, details and planning are absolutely different. Any person can deepen and develop style, tone, complexity and content cohesiveness at any stage of CC So, really it's a matter of how much of the program you would like your 10th grader to get through. Does that answer your question? Please ask more of there is anything else I can help with!
                Abigail
                Teacher of Classical Composition and Literature MPOA

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Abigail Johnson View Post
                  Hi Katie,
                  I​​​​ Am so excited you will be starting CC!
                  This is a fantastic question. What I would recommend for him are two things, since MPOA is t an option right now. I would suggest a "super" accelerated program for him, using the DVD's for the Ref/Con, and then DVD's for CT and EIC next year. Then, his senior year I would put him in MPOA with Elaine Selby for HS III. The thesis/law is a pretty big undertaking that I feel is really best with a dedicated level teacher. Would it be possible for you to plan on that expense in 2 years? Also, it's completely reasonable for you to take a high schooler through the "lower stages." The difference is what you expect. It's like doing a sculpting project with. 2nd grader versus a high schooler. Natural talent aside, the expectations of technique development, mastery, effort, details and planning are absolutely different. Any person can deepen and develop style, tone, complexity and content cohesiveness at any stage of CC So, really it's a matter of how much of the program you would like your 10th grader to get through. Does that answer your question? Please ask more of there is anything else I can help with!
                  Abigail
                  Teacher of Classical Composition and Literature MPOA
                  Abigail, thank you so much for responding! So what you are saying is that he could essentially skip Fable, Narrative, and Chreia/Maxim? And just start with Ref/Con and take a full year to really dive into that? I actually am not very concerned with him skipping those earlier levels UNLESS he would feel lost and frustrated by not knowing the "language" or terms of CC. I think we could definitely plan for High Comp III class for his senior year. I would love for him to have that!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I should add that I did hear you and its not that I don't think that he could benefit from the lower stages but I just didn't know how crucial those are for an older more experienced writer...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hi Tara, sorry about calling you Katie! I guess I looked at the wrong part of the thread ? I never recommend skipping levels, only accelerating them, because CC is vertically scaffolded. A very accelerated program for 10th grade is Fable and Narrative in 6 weeks total, then spend 6-8 weeks on Chreiaa/Maxim and the rest of the year, 16-20 weeks or so, on Ref/Con.
                      Blessings,
                      Abigail

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Katie Thanks for the lovely compliment!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Abigail Johnson View Post
                          Hi Tara, sorry about calling you Katie! I guess I looked at the wrong part of the thread ? I never recommend skipping levels, only accelerating them, because CC is vertically scaffolded. A very accelerated program for 10th grade is Fable and Narrative in 6 weeks total, then spend 6-8 weeks on Chreiaa/Maxim and the rest of the year, 16-20 weeks or so, on Ref/Con.
                          Blessings,
                          Abigail
                          Abigail,

                          Oh! Ok, gotcha. That does make more sense along with everything else Ive read and learned. Thank you for clarifying for me. And thank you for your recommended schedule as well. That will be quite helpful.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Abigail,

                            A couple of more questions. :-)

                            Are there any specific lessons in the Fable, Narrative, or Chreia/Maxim you think my 10th grader would need to cover? Or just simply use the beginning lessons of each level? In general I was wondering if the lessons within a level were progressive or simply repeated practice of the same concepts learned at the beginning of the level? I hope that makes sense.

                            When I reread your previous post I realized that maybe you meant that he could get by without the DVDs until Ref/Con?? Maybe that that may enable him to move faster??

                            Thanks again! I am working on a syllabus for him.

                            Tara

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hi Tara,

                              The lessons will differ a bit in that the paraphrase sections for Fable and Narrative have different directions: reduction (sometimes called condensing), amplification, inversion, and point of view. (The point of view skill is only in Narrative.) So, you will need to make sure that all those are mastered. So, it is very simple to skip around in the book. I do it all the time, year to year, as it adds some variety for me. I always teach condensed timelines either the first 4 or 6 stages in a year. Some years I just can't face another 60 versions of the Ant and the Grasshopper! ?. Other than that the lessons will not differ from each other; they are more about the repetition of many skills that must be interwoven successfully for a full paper. Students will understand the models, the structure, and style BETTER each and every time they write an essay, and thus progress in their writing. For the record, I still learn something fascinating about Ref/Con yearly, it's why I keep teaching this wonderful program!!

                              Regarding the DVD's, yes, since you were planning on taking your other children from Fable-Maxim in the next year, I assumed you will be working on mastering those 4 yourself this summer, and thus you can teach him somewhat concurrently initially when introducing fable, and then separately once he gets out of Fable. I would also urge his pace of writing to be more demanding than your younger students. Where they may take 2-3 weeks for a lesson at first, then one per week, and then 2 weeks per Chreia, have your oldest student on a brisk pace. Fables are VERY short and, even with attention to style, paraphrasing quality, etc, a 10th grader should churn one lesson out each and every week! Narrative gets into longer stories, but should keep the same pace. Chreia/Maxim may be 2 weeks at first, but then one every week. 2 weeks per Ref/Con lesson (each individual lesson, not the pair!) at the MOST, hopefully getting to 1 per week towards the end.

                              I know this is a brisk pace, but the demanding pace makes up a hefty part of the "rigor" difference between the "yearly" stages that take 2-3 weeks per lesson, and the compressed timelines for older writers.

                              Blessings!
                              Abigail

                              Comment

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