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    #46
    Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

    As I have sat here on the couch post-surgery, I have been reading and re-reading lots of things. I picked up my ‘Late Summer 2017’ Magalog. The cover touts an article by R.W. Livingstone titled, “More Important than the Cosmos Itself.” As I re-read it, it screamed out at me in regards to this recent forum discussion.

    The discussion seems to revolve around the main idea, “Is an education that focuses on Western Civilization’s history, and specifically its Christian history, truly preparing a student for the ‘real-world’?”

    Nearly 100 years ago, Livingstone wrote in the excerpt quoted in the Magalog, “One of the chief objects of (classical) education is to train flexibility of mind, to make a man quick to comprehend other points of view than his own.”

    I think we all agree that the study of history is important. No argument there. The question is, from which point of view should we study history?

    The current fad is to study history from EVERY point of view. No one shall be left out. There is no right or wrong. No judgment. Everyone is a winner.

    When we study history from a Christian point of view, we do pass judgment. There is right. There is wrong.

    Classical Christian education studies the whole man. The political man. The religious man. The emotional man. The truths discovered are applicable across mankind.

    Livingstone goes on to write, “No one can dispense with a knowledge of man. Everyone needs it, and is using it each minute he is in relation with human beings, whether he is speaking to them, or reading what they have written, or engaged in work which at any point touches them. We need this knowledge as private individuals. And still more, we need it as citizens and voters.”

    In another article in the same Magalog, Carol Reynolds wrote about the importance of arts within education and specifically a classical education in her article “Beautiful is not Boring.” I think it is pretty applicable to this topic too. “It is not an elite, dusty remnant of the past. It speaks across time and place to everyone. Its complexity and refinement are not barriers, but rather invitations to experience its continuously gratifying richness.”

    That sounds pretty current and applicable to today’s student. That’s Classical Christian education and that’s something I believe in and support.
    Married to DH for 14 years. Living the rural life in the Colorado mountains

    DS11- Simply Classical 5/6
    DD9- Simply Classical 5/6 (neurotypical, but schooling with big brother to save mom's sanity)
    DD 6- Classic Core First Grade

    We've completed:
    Classic Core Jr. kindergarten, kindergarten, first grade, and second grade.
    Simply Classical levels B, C, 1, 2, 3, and 4.

    Comment


      #47
      Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

      Originally posted by Colomama View Post

      When we study history from a Christian point of view, we do pass judgment. There is right. There is wrong.
      ...

      That sounds pretty current and applicable to today’s student. That’s Classical Christian education and that’s something I believe in and support.
      Colomama, these thoughts struck me as so relevant & incisive: they are why we are pursuing Classical Christian education ourselves. Your comment about right and wrong gets to the heart of why I want my children to have the best training I can give them in understanding right & wrong in history; though I also have a concern & hesitation in my heart at the words "pass judgment" -- whether on a culture or a person -- because I want to live in the light of Christ's command to "judge not".

      There are so many commands in the Bible to reserve judgment for our heavenly Father, and so very few cases where something called "judgment" is recommended, that here I tread carefully. I teach my children to judge, where they must, not people but fruits. Where we see the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the sick healed, the stranger welcomed, the prisoner visited and cared for: there, the people are serving Jesus. Where there is love & joy & peace & temperance & goodness & self-control: there, the Holy Spirit dwells.

      Clearly, Christians must identify and discern good and evil.

      Your concern to have Christian judgment in history seems to me to be address judging this rightness or wrongness of historical actions? Which does makes sense, to learn to discern goodness and evil in Classical Christian history. It seems to me that in history, as in the present, we are called to be discerning so that we may grow in love for our heavenly Father, love for our neighbors, love for our enemies, and may brighten the light we shine in this world. Deeply understanding Western Christian history helps us to "do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God".

      This, I believe.

      Thank you also for the quote from Professor Carol -- it inspires me to keep trying to engage with the best of our marvelous art & music heritage. I really want to grow in this area this year, Lord willing.

      ETA: I am so grateful for this space to reflect, and refine what I am wanting to see and grow in our lives. A prayer of thanks for this gracious forum.
      Last edited by serendipitous journey; 09-02-2017, 12:35 PM.
      Ana, mama to
      ds A, 14 yo
      ds N, 9 yo

      Comment


        #48
        Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

        Originally posted by serendipitous journey View Post
        Colomama, these thoughts struck me as so relevant & incisive: they are why we are pursuing Classical Christian education ourselves. Your comment about right and wrong gets to the heart of why I want my children to have the best training I can give them in understanding right & wrong in history; though I also have a concern & hesitation in my heart at the words "pass judgment" -- whether on a culture or a person -- because I want to live in the light of Christ's command to "judge not".

        There are so many commands in the Bible to reserve judgment for our heavenly Father, and so very few cases where something called "judgment" is recommended, that here I tread carefully. I teach my children to judge, where they must, not people but fruits. Where we see the hungry fed, the naked clothed, the sick healed, the stranger welcomed, the prisoner visited and cared for: there, the people are serving Jesus. Where there is love & joy & peace & temperance & goodness & self-control: there, the Holy Spirit dwells.

        Clearly, Christians must identify and discern good and evil.

        Your concern to have Christian judgment in history seems to me to be address judging this rightness or wrongness of historical actions? Which does makes sense, to learn to discern goodness and evil in Classical Christian history. It seems to me that in history, as in the present, we are called to be discerning so that we may grow in love for our heavenly Father, love for our neighbors, love for our enemies, and may brighten the light we shine in this world. Deeply understanding Western Christian history helps us to "do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God".

        This, I believe.

        Thank you also for the quote from Professor Carol -- it inspires me to keep trying to engage with the best of our marvelous art & music heritage. I really want to grow in this area this year, Lord willing.

        ETA: I am so grateful for this space to reflect, and refine what I am wanting to see and grow in our lives. A prayer of thanks for this gracious forum.

        There is such a fine line here -- as you wisely point out. What it comes down to is that we must judge the action as either right/wrong, but we must not judge the person doing the action. Meaning: we must not judge the state of their soul, regardless of the action, as only God knows all and therefore is the only one qualified to make that judgement. For my fellow Catholics who may be concerned, I of course believe that Christ gave the leaders of the Church the authority to make such judgements of soul (as stated in Scripture). I speak here about the laity
        Jennifer
        Blog: [url]www.seekingdelectare.com[/url]

        DS16: MP, MPOA, HSC, Breaking the Barrier French
        DS15: MP, MPOA, HSC
        DS12: Mash-up of 6/7M
        DS11: SC 4
        DD9: 3A with First Form Latin (long story!)
        DD8: Mash-up of SC 1/2
        DD5: January birthday, using SC B and C as a two-year JrK

        Comment


          #49
          Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

          Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
          There is such a fine line here -- as you wisely point out. What it comes down to is that we must judge the action as either right/wrong, but we must not judge the person doing the action. Meaning: we must not judge the state of their soul, regardless of the action, as only God knows all and therefore is the only one qualified to make that judgement. For my fellow Catholics who may be concerned, I of course believe that Christ gave the leaders of the Church the authority to make such judgements of soul (as stated in Scripture). I speak here about the laity
          Maybe the distinction is really semantics? I think when people speak of "judgement" in a negative way, what they really are rightly opposed to, is condemnation. We all make judgements- every day, every minute- and that is not wrong. What Christ warns us against is condemnation of others, not judgement of actions in themselves as wrong or right. We have to exercise judgement otherwise we risk losing our reason. But- we have no right, as fellow sinners, to condemn others.

          Just thoughts- take or leave-

          Comment


            #50
            Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

            Originally posted by jen1134 View Post
            There is such a fine line here -- as you wisely point out. What it comes down to is that we must judge the action as either right/wrong, but we must not judge the person doing the action. Meaning: we must not judge the state of their soul, regardless of the action, as only God knows all and therefore is the only one qualified to make that judgement. For my fellow Catholics who may be concerned, I of course believe that Christ gave the leaders of the Church the authority to make such judgements of soul (as stated in Scripture). I speak here about the laity
            Originally posted by Maria2 View Post
            Maybe the distinction is really semantics? I think when people speak of "judgement" in a negative way, what they really are rightly opposed to, is condemnation. We all make judgements- every day, every minute- and that is not wrong. What Christ warns us against is condemnation of others, not judgement of actions in themselves as wrong or right. We have to exercise judgement otherwise we risk losing our reason. But- we have no right, as fellow sinners, to condemn others.

            Just thoughts- take or leave-
            What excellent thoughts to reflect on ... thank you both. I realized later, after posting, that my comments probably seemed critical, and that really wasn't intended. I wanted more to show agreement with the thrust of Colomama's insights, and share how those concerns with judging/discerning good and bad are developing in our household as I work to educate the children, and to learn how better to educate them.
            Ana, mama to
            ds A, 14 yo
            ds N, 9 yo

            Comment


              #51
              Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

              Originally posted by Colomama View Post
              As I have sat here on the couch post-surgery...
              Colomama, I just really processed this line -- which I'd read but somehow not digested -- you are amazing! I am astonished you can think at all post-surgery, much less reflect so beautifully on educational theory. I hope your surgery went well, and you continue to be in our prayers. Hugs to you (gentle hugs? maybe air-kisses are better), dear one.
              Ana, mama to
              ds A, 14 yo
              ds N, 9 yo

              Comment


                #52
                Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

                Originally posted by Maria2 View Post
                Maybe the distinction is really semantics? I think when people speak of "judgement" in a negative way, what they really are rightly opposed to, is condemnation. We all make judgements- every day, every minute- and that is not wrong. What Christ warns us against is condemnation of others, not judgement of actions in themselves as wrong or right. We have to exercise judgement otherwise we risk losing our reason. But- we have no right, as fellow sinners, to condemn others.

                Just thoughts- take or leave-
                I agree! As far as I understand, there are two types of judgments (condemnation/final vs. temporal). There are a few examples in the bible where we are commanded not to judge (condemnation), one of the examples was given by the Savior John 8:10,11. He did not condone the sin, nor condemn the women. On the other hand, we are commanded to judge righteously/wisely. We make decision(judgments) about where to live, marriage, jobs, friends, etc. Basically we judge on anything that is within our personal responsibilities and should refrain from judging the individual but circumstances/situations.

                In regards to the original question and as a non-westerner per se. I honestly believe that the knowledge and wisdom that are given to children can only depend on the parents. Children are, after all a reflection of our own home/image. We lead by example!

                MG
                ***Using some 5A and 8A MP materials for 2020-2021***

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: Still pretty new to MP-BIG question

                  Originally posted by OrthodoxHandmaiden View Post
                  Women were busy educating the next generation of conquerers and kings - and that is no small contribution.
                  <3<3
                  <3 Excellent!<3

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