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    #16
    Re: Latin Form series on transcript

    Originally posted by SaintJude7 View Post
    Michael,
    Are you considering First Form Latin to be equivalent to a full year of HS Latin I? I am going to agree with Momgineer that each of the Forms levels is the equivalent of a half year of high school Latin. The Forms Series does not contain the literature element or translation work of high school Latin. I have had two ten-year-olds complete First Form.
    Completing all four of the Forms is like completing Henle First Year. Kolbe gives one year of High School credit for that, with some of Henle I carrying over into the second year of high school Latin. If you base credits for a course on how much time a student puts into completing the work, that would be very subjective and potentially misleading.
    Blessings,
    Jude

    DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
    Hours spent is typically how credits are awarded; the content, and level of mastery, will vary from program to program. That is why there are almost as many definitions of "one credit" of Latin as there are Latin curricula and classes! Some programs prefer breadth but not depth. We prefer to truly master the material. Allow me to quote Martin Cothran:

    The programs that contain more translation than the Form series tend to be inductive in their approach. They try to immerse students in the actual language, much like they would have learned English when they were young. This is similar to the whole language method used to teach reading in many public schools. If you have an experienced teacher and you are able to spend several hours a day on Latin with a group of students who are able to converse together, this method can work. But the immersion method is harder to use if you don't have that luxury. The benefits of Latin go beyond the mere ability to translate or even speak Latin: the grammar knowledge and mental skills one acquires in Latin study are at least as important. Immersion approaches do not tend to emphasize grammar or present it in a systematic way and therefore do not give the student the grammar knowledge and mental training that come from more grammar-based approaches. ...

    One publisher does indeed do the first Henle Latin text in a year. We would commend them for their ability to do this. Even with the many experienced Latin instructors we have at our school, however, we would not attempt this. We emphasize full mastery at every level of learning. It is certainly not impossible to cover that much Latin in a year, but we have always preferred an approach that ensures that the student has fully internalized the knowledge and skills of each aspect of the grammar. It's a bit like doing Bible study: you may have a choice between covering the Bible in a year or studying one book of the Bible for a year. They are both equally challenging, but they do two different things. Covering the Bible in a year will give you a good overview, but does not allow you to study any one thing deeply; whereas studying one book of the Bible over a longer period of time will allow the student to have a fuller and deeper knowledge of that one text. One method is deep and the other is wide. Many seminaries offer both of these kinds of classes, but give the same course credit to both. To cover Henle Latin I in a year is indeed a great accomplishment, but we prefer a slower approach that allows for full mastery at every level. [emphasis added]
    As I said in Post #8 above, if you are more comfortable giving less than a full credit for a Form, based on how you implemented it in your home school, that is absolutely fine. At the same time, if someone wants to award a full credit for a Form, based on their implementation in their homeschool, that is also fine.

    HTH!
    Michael
    Memoria Press

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Latin Form series on transcript

      Michael,
      My concern is that in cases of students transferring into private schools for later grades or credits being evaluated by a college foreign language department, there are certain things they are expecting to have been covered in four years of Latin. Do any of the four Forms levels contain translation work other than from Caesar, because that would certainly be considered a bare minimum from a student supposedly covering four years of high school Latin? Do you know anyone who goes through four years of high school Latin without knowing the significance of "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"?
      While I may argue that my student should receive credit for Algebra I, if he spent a certain number of hours each day working on that subject according to my personal expectations, I am probably going to have a hard time proving to the head of a private school math department that the credit is legitimate, if I have not covered simultaneous equations, polynomials, or quadratic equations. I can certainly try to argue that we covered our topics in depth, but I doubt that will be particularly convincing. Many homeschoolers have found themselves enrolling their children in private schools (or even public schools) at the high school level and had to provide not only the texts that were used, but also a course syllabus.
      Perhaps a better recommendation would be to give the students credits not for high school Latin, but for high school Latin Grammar? This would eliminate the expectation of translation and literature.
      Blessings,
      Jude

      DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
      Last edited by SaintJude7; 06-01-2017, 11:18 AM.
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        #18
        Re: Latin Form series on transcript

        Originally posted by SaintJude7 View Post
        Michael,
        My concern is that in cases of students transferring into private schools for later grades or credits being evaluated by a college foreign language department, there are certain things they are expecting to have been covered in four years of Latin. Do any of the four Forms levels contain translation work other than from Caesar, because that would certainly be considered a bare minimum from a student supposedly covering four years of high school Latin? Do you know anyone who goes through four years of high school Latin without knowing the significance of "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"?
        While I may argue that my student should receive credit for Algebra I, if he spent a certain number of hours each day working on that subject according to my personal expectations, I am probably going to have a hard time proving to the head of a private school math department that the credit is legitimate, if I have not covered simultaneous equations, polynomials, or quadratic equations. I can certainly try to argue that we covered our topics in depth, but I doubt that will be particularly convincing. Many homeschoolers have found themselves enrolling their children in private schools (or even public schools) at the high school level and had to provide not only the texts that were used, but also a course syllabus.
        Perhaps a better recommendation would be to give the students credits not for high school Latin, but for high school Latin Grammar? This would eliminate the expectation of translation and literature.
        Blessings,
        Jude

        DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
        Hello again,

        I would love for every student to be able to translate Caesar before they graduated! However, we do not have a national curriculum like some countries in Europe do. There are pros and cons to not having content dictated nationally, but from a homeschooler’s perspective, it is a blessing to not have to do exactly as the state (or society) tells you to.

        Your analogy to math is helpful but there is more of a consensus in the field of math about what is the minimum. We know what concepts are covered by “Algebra I” and what concepts are covered by “Pre-Calculus” and they are often listed on transcripts with those descriptors. Language study, however, is not often broken down that way. Thus the endless discussions about grammar-first, immersion approach, hybrid approach, etc.

        One aspect of learning that I’m not sure has been well addressed in this thread is the mastery of skills. In language, just as in math, there are skills that the student must acquire. Ideally a student can speak or translate (in language) or apply mathematical formulae effortlessly and flawlessly (in math). However, a student could possibly spend two years doing pre-calculus and calculus, still get good grades, but not have those skills because the teacher was an easy grader. Another teacher, though, might be particularly hard and force the students to work problem after problem allowing no room for error. Both groups of students get credits but acquired vastly different levels of skill. And they spent the same amount of time a week in class. By assigning credits we would like to think every student that receives a credit has achieved the same thing—but nothing could be further from the truth—just look at any classroom with more than one student in it!

        What I am really getting at is that there is not a one-size-fits-all answer. We are happy to stand behind the Form Series as a high school credit for each level for reasons we have previously stated. (As an aside, Paul had a student that he taught Fourth Form to. The next year he begged to be allowed straight into an AP Latin course—he scored a 5/5 on the test. The Form Series gave him the tools he needed to do AP work which is supposedly equivalent to college work, right?) Families that get through the Form Series before high school should count the translation work they do in high school as their high school foreign language credits. You are free to award less than one credit per Form, or even to rename the credit as "Latin Grammar" on a transcript. However, other families are perfectly justified in awarding a full credit for High School Latin for each Form.
        Michael
        Memoria Press

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Latin Form series on transcript

          Michael,
          Are you planning to update the Highlands Latin school curriculum to reflect that the Forms Series is now worth four years of high school credit? Or will the students continue to read "Ovid, Caesar, Cicero, Vergil, and Medieval Latin" in grades 9-12, just as is the requirement for four years of high school Latin at Kolbe Academy? Surely, if those years are unnecessary, and AP Latin requires only the Forms as preparation, Highlands could change their curriculum to reflect that approach.
          You're just not convincing me that a) homeschooling parents should set their standards lower than the parents of students at Highlands, or b) a year of First Form Latin (which can be learned and mastered by a ten-year-old) is worth a year of high school credit. I'm sure I can take the work my children do and slap whatever labels I want on it. If I do that, I water down the meaning of a classical education. It would be intellectually dishonest. Moreover, I don't recall these being the recommendations put out by Memoria Press a decade ago for high school Latin.
          Blessings,
          Jude

          DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
          Last edited by SaintJude7; 06-01-2017, 01:51 PM.
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            #20
            Re: Latin Form series on transcript

            Hi Jen,

            The other day in a different thread you mentioned leaving room for those choose to do things differently. While we promote starting Latin in second grade (and happily accompany those homeschooling families that can), we choose to stand behind those that start later and use our Form Series.

            Highlands is a special school and anyone in Louisville will tell you that the students are a specific subset of the population--they are those that have family support, want to work hard, and put a high emphasis on academics. Not everyone fits in that subset. We are the last people to say it has to be the Highlands way or the highway. We are trying to support everyone in whatever situation they find themselves in to give their children the best that a classical education has to offer. We want everyone to be able to read the classics in their original languages (see my articles in The Classical Teacher over the past couple years), but some families find they cannot get there, and that is fine.

            Michael is not saying *you* have to give a high school credit to your child that completes First Form, but just that a family could.

            Paul
            Paul Schaeffer
            --
            Academy Director
            Memoria Press Online Academy

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Latin Form series on transcript

              Good afternoon, Paul,
              This is Jude (not Jen). Yes, I did indeed say we need to leave room for others to do things differently, especially regarding materials that had not previously been used by MP becoming part of the core curriculum. But I do believe that if you are going to claim that your child has studied Latin (not just Latin Grammar) at the high school level, then that claim has to have something to back it up. We do not have national standards as in Europe. But I can look at what schools who offer a "classical education," including Highlands, expect from high school level Latin studies. Beyond that, public schools which offer four years of Latin still expect translation and literature in addition to grammar. The Forms series does an excellent job of covering in four years what Memoria Press previously achieved in three years using Henle I and the MP Guides. I agree that the increased repetition and slower time frame is a wonderful fit for students in grades four through eight. Certainly, the ease of use was a big factor in why I chose First Form Latin for my last two students at that level, whereas the two children before them went straight into Henle I from other resources. But I would not award more than two high school credits for the Forms Series as a whole. I only award one credit for Henle I, regardless of how long it takes to complete. Forms covers grammar and an introduction to Caesar. That is not four years of high school level Latin as taught at Highlands. And just as the students at Highlands are a specific subset of students in your area, so are MP users a specific subset of homeschoolers. Or even classical homeschoolers. You don't need to water down the standards (or your brand) for them.
              Blessings,
              Jude

              DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
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                #22
                Re: Latin Form series on transcript

                Hi Jude (so sorry about calling you Jen!),

                Given we are providing a curriculum for special needs children, we believe classical education is for everyone, not just a small subset. The beauty of homeschooling is that the education can be tailored to the student. Thanks for your input.

                Paul
                Paul Schaeffer
                --
                Academy Director
                Memoria Press Online Academy

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Latin Form series on transcript

                  That's an interesting take, Paul. I actually have a seventeen-year-old, special needs, severely autistic son. I would not give him high school credit on a transcript for Latin, if he did not complete the work required for neuro-typical students. Had he stayed in public schools, he could have earned a diploma, but he would not have earned credits for high school Latin. His transcript would reflect the actual academic levels of the classes he had taken. It probably took him far more effort and repetition to learn the Table Blessing than most of your students put into the whole of First Form Latin. But I'm not giving him a credit hour for it.
                  Blessings,
                  Jude

                  DD 20, DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DD 10, DS 7, DD 5
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                    #24
                    Re: Latin Form series on transcript

                    I am late to the party here, as this thread is quite old. However, the topic is still timely, and I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I agree with Memoria Press on this issue. MP Forms series provides an excellent Latin education, and I do not understand why the public school method of awarding credit should be the standard by which we are measured. I believe the MP standard of deep learning is a better one, and that should be the standard instead. This is not to say that our transcript should be foreign and "odd" to a college, but that we should set our standards and stick with them. Variable expectations could be handled by thorough course descriptions when applying to colleges.

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