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    #16
    Re: research papers

    Originally posted by momgineer View Post
    We have used (class of 2013) and are currently using (class of 2019) Kolbe high school since MP didn't have a 10th grade package this year. Kolbe teaches research papers as part of their English class each year. They write one in 9th, one in 10th and two in 11th (can't remember about 12th). And the books they use step the student through the process. I can always use their course in the future. It's not like I'm searching for something to teach research papers.
    Rather I hope to use MP cores for my rising 7th grader all the way through 12th and I want to make sure research papers will be taught without me having to sub out courses. That would defeat the purpose of using cores.
    I think it will be interesting to see what kolbe does in the future. The last time I spoke with a rep at a conference they were just starting to phase in classical composition. I just glanced and they were up to including common topic in eighth grade using the Memoria press guides. The rep at the time was very impressed with the quality of the papers from kids using CC. My daughter is going into eighth and I am still debating between MPOA or Kolbe for next year since it appears Kolbe will let me substitute in my Memoria press classes and they provide plans for the Foerster math and the catholic content. My concern is MPOA diploma program requires so many online classes...I am still debating the quantity of screen time and scheduling.

    I do agree my kids need to do a research paper so they aren't intimidated, but many of the footnotes I remember were in my literature classes because we were required to read what others had written about the text in question (think Norton critical editions) and use as support.

    Dorinda
    Dorinda

    For 2019-2020
    DD 16 - 11th with MPOA(AP Latin), Lukeion (Greek4 & Adv. NT Greek), Thinkwell (Economics and Chemistry), plus Pre-Calculus, American G’ment, Early Church History set, and British Lit
    DS 14 - 8th with MPOA(Fourth Form), CLRC(Intro Lit and Comp), plus Algebra, Field Biology, Classical Studies 1
    DS 11 - 6th with Right Start Level G online class
    DS 6 - 1st with Prima Latina

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      #17
      Re: research papers

      I agree that our American history and European history guides leave something to be desired. They are currently the discussion questions our teachers use in class as jumping off points for their lectures. We just put them out there because we felt something was better than nothing. We are currently reworking the American history guides, but this is going to take some time. Unfortunately, many of you are moving faster than we are. We are finding that it takes much longer to develop a high school course because so much of these courses is dependent on classroom lecture by a master teacher in his/her field. Application of the thinking skills we have worked to build in our students in the early years lends itself to discussion and isn't as easy to put onto paper for homeschool use.

      More later. Have to go to church.

      Tanya
      Last edited by tanya; 07-31-2016, 12:36 PM.

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        #18
        Re: research papers

        Sorry about the two-part post. I was sitting in Sunday School, and no one else was there, so I decided to post while I waited. I was so long-winded that I didn't get finished before people started wandering in, and I didn't know how to save it without posting it! Lesson to self: Leave phone in purse or car when in church!

        So, as I was saying ...

        Our students write a lot - in literature, in history, in Christian studies ... But the structure of that is dependent on each teacher. Transferring that information to the homeschooler is another whole task. Yes, we teach our students to write research papers, but there isn't any formal schedule for that. It just happens with different teachers within the brick and mortar school. I know that when my students wrote their first paper, I was an integral part of that at home. I did know what was due when, but I basically had to teach my children how to do the research, how to make the notecards, how to outline their paper, how to cite. Luckily for me, I had an English degree, so I was able to walk them through the process without too much difficulty. But others would struggle with this, so I feel like this course in writing would need to be more knowledge-based than just a lesson plan assigning tasks. And this isn't a course we have written. I don't really know what kind of courses are out there, but we might be able to find one that is written already that would be a faster fix for you.

        That said, I want to stress again that this will in no way interfere with CC in our schedule. We figure that you can spend 2/3 of your year on CC and the other 1/3 on a different type of writing course, such as Elegant Essay or a course in research writing, and have the best of both worlds. You don't need a ton of additional writing practice alongside CC, but people are feeling the need for some additional help with traditional writing activities. And our literature guides in the upper school have all sorts of writing opportunities in them. But sometimes, parents need a guide for how to show their students how to do it, and we don't have that developed at MP yet.

        For those of you who really feel intimidated about teaching writing, I recommend that you take advantage of our online classes. They will get this done for you, and release you from the responsibility. They will even take care of grading your student's writing.

        Forgive typos! This is a long response on a little screen.

        Tanya

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          #19
          Re: research papers

          I want to follow up what Tanya has said by affirming that my 10th grader does a lot of essays - and she understands how those can be expanded into longer papers. If you know how to write an essay, all it takes to consider a research paper is to realize that you have to write an essay about each one of the main points supporting the thesis of your research paper.

          For instance, over the last two years my daughter wrote essays about the leadership styles/role of leadership of Achilles, Odysseus, Aeneus, Henry V, and the Puritan beliefs of the Scarlet Letter society. She also had essays about the Chreia Maxims, and from her Logic lessons. Each of these sources could have been tweaked to discuss a central theme of "leadership" (adding transitions and whatnot) to make a full fledged research paper. We have not done that yet, but we could have. The writing is all there, even for homeschoolers, as Tanya described.

          Since my oldest has gotten so good at essays, and is no longer fearful of them, my goal will be to have her write them more quickly- 45 min or so. At the end of the semester, she could take those and refine them into a paper. Again, that small bit of instruction time on it will be useful. Debbie, your experience with teaching your older kids to do it will probably be enough, I would think.

          And as for citations, the instructions throughout the literature guide questions instruct students to support their answers with direct quotes from the work. And the CC assignments encourage finding additional sources of support for those assignments. I feel like all the skills are there, they are just included in different places throughout the curriculum. That is what I have seen so far, anyway.

          AMDG,
          Sarah
          Last edited by KF2000; 08-01-2016, 07:27 AM.
          2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
          DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
          DS, 16
          DD, 14
          DD, 12
          DD, 10
          DD, 7.5
          DD, 5.5
          +DS+
          DS, 18 months

          Comment


            #20
            Re: research papers

            Originally posted by pickandgrin View Post
            At Sodalitas the HLS-Indy folks shared their students did research papers in other classes, not composition (into which CC falls). I believe it was History and Science and guided by the teachers? Perhaps they can share more. It was my understanding that once they've completed CC it was more about being directed on the form of setting up the research paper and notating sources, that the actual writing was easy.

            I've tucked away the idea of writing a senior year research paper or thesis but we aren't there yet, as I mentioned earlier. Perhaps I'm way off base, but I wouldn't see the lack of instruction in a specific skill dissuading me from the otherwise robust high school path of MP. To the OP (momgineer?), I guess that would mean adding in a simple program like the one linked above if you did want that specific instruction. I'm hopeful Cindy Davis or someone else from HLS can chime in to this discussion.
            I was reluctant to jump into this conversation, because research papers are not my area of expertise. Our students at HLS-Indy do take a course called "senior thesis", which is very similar to the MP online class linked above. The purpose of the course is to teach exactly what momgineer is looking for - selecting a topic, doing research, organizing and writing a paper with correct format, with the intent that this skill will transfer at the college level to any paper students are asked to write. Now I am curious, and will dig in to find out what our seniors typically research and write about! I do know the course is taught by our English teachers, but not during Composition class.

            Because of the interest and need expressed on this thread, perhaps MP will decide to create a guide to teach "senior thesis". I could almost hear the wheels turning in Tanya's reply above. I think momgineer has initiated a helpful discussion here.
            Cindy Davis
            Science and Math teacher at Highlands Latin School - Indianapolis
            ds-25 college graduate: autodidact, working to pay the bills
            ds-23 college graduate: 1st year med school
            dd-21 college senior: Nursing

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              #21
              Re: research papers

              Originally posted by KF2000 View Post

              Since my oldest has gotten so good at essays, and is no longer fearful of them, my goal will be to have her write them more quickly- 45 min or so. At the end of the semester, she could take those and refine them into a paper. Again, that small bit of instruction time on it will be useful. Debbie, your experience with teaching your older kids to do it will probably be enough, I would think.

              And as for citations, the instructions throughout the literature guide questions instruct students to support their answers with direct quotes from the work. And the CC assignments encourage finding additional sources of support for those assignments. I feel like all the skills are there, they are just included in different places throughout the curriculum. That is what I have seen so far, anyway.
              ETA- I just saw Cindy's post- I do hope MP creates a Senior Thesis guide- I think that would be excellent!

              In my experience, if writing skills are strong (to the level Sarah indicates MP teaches), teaching researching and MLA style isn't time consuming. However, both skills do need to be taught and practiced. MLA is the dominate stye for undergraduates, although I'm sure there are exceptions. These skills could be incorporated into 11th and 12th grade course work easily I would think, using the IEW book or something MP writes. I also really like the Christian Light three-week booklet for an introduction to the process. It is very step by step.

              Our reason for ultimately not going with MP for high school did have a lot to do with the research papers (I plan to have dd write 3-4 per year), but also we are in a state that requires government and econ, subjects not directly covered by MP. Between those, wanting to use the accelerated Novare books, being a year off in Latin, and then ending up with a different Algebra text, I finally decided to let the cores go and use the MP parts that work for us.
              Last edited by bean; 08-01-2016, 12:33 PM.
              Bean. Long time MP user.

              DD- 9th grade aerospace enthusiast. Using a mix of dual credit, online and classical materials for 2019-2020.

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                #22
                Re: research papers

                I know the original OP is not looking for MPOA classes but I wanted to mention this other one that addresses a research paper: Foundations for Modern Composition: https://www.memoriapressacademy.com/...ns-modern-comp

                I have this on our list for 11th grade...God willing.
                PAX,
                Theresa

                ds -27-ICU Nurse
                ds -24-Grad school: DeSales U. Physician's Assistant Program
                dd -21-Working and taking online courses for vet tech
                dd -12-7M along with some MPOA classes

                "I am a product of long corridors, empty sunlit rooms, upstairs indoor silences, attics explored in solitude, distant noises of gurgling cisterns and pipes, and the noise of wind under the tiles. Also, of endless books." -C.S. Lewis

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                  #23
                  Re: research papers

                  Originally posted by Cindy in Indy View Post
                  I was reluctant to jump into this conversation, because research papers are not my area of expertise.
                  ....

                  Because of the interest and need expressed on this thread, perhaps MP will decide to create a guide to teach "senior thesis". I could almost hear the wheels turning in Tanya's reply above. I think momgineer has initiated a helpful discussion here.
                  Sorry, Cindy, I consider you an expert on everything! :-)

                  I am very thankful for these questions and I know we parents of younger children benefit when those of you in the trenches of high school ask. So, thank you!
                  Festina lentē,
                  Jessica P

                  SY2019-2020 · 8th MP Year
                  @ Home, HLN, & MPOA
                  S · 10th, MPOA Henle 3
                  D · 8th
                  D · 5th
                  S · 2nd

                  Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School

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