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    Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

    I am needing to clarify what the Henle 2 lesson plans will contain. It is my understanding that homeschool students not taking the online class are encouraged to take two years to do Henle 2.
    1. Will MP sell lesson plans for both years?
    2. Will the first year be all 32 lessons without the translation of Caesar and the second year be only Caesar translation?
    3. Will the lesson plans include tests? If so, how many tests (how often are tests given, after every few lessons, only at semester, or what)?
    4. Will it be possible to break the lesson plans down (on my own) into doing the first 16 lessons in one semester and the remaining 16 lessons AND the corresponding Caesar into one year? And would I be able to give the included tests (assuming you have tests) with this breakdown or does that complicate matters too much?
    5. What would tests for the year of only Caesar translation look like? Would they simply be translating sample lines from the assignments?
    Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
    DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
    DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
    DS, 21, chemistry major
    DS, 18, Physics major
    DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
    DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
    DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

    #2
    Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

    Originally posted by momgineer View Post
    I am needing to clarify what the Henle 2 lesson plans will contain. It is my understanding that homeschool students not taking the online class are encouraged to take two years to do Henle 2.
    1. Will MP sell lesson plans for both years?
    2. Will the first year be all 32 lessons without the translation of Caesar and the second year be only Caesar translation?
    3. Will the lesson plans include tests? If so, how many tests (how often are tests given, after every few lessons, only at semester, or what)?
    4. Will it be possible to break the lesson plans down (on my own) into doing the first 16 lessons in one semester and the remaining 16 lessons AND the corresponding Caesar into one year? And would I be able to give the included tests (assuming you have tests) with this breakdown or does that complicate matters too much?
    5. What would tests for the year of only Caesar translation look like? Would they simply be translating sample lines from the assignments?
    To explain our Latin sequence for Caesar, I need to first explain the AP Exam. It used to only contain Virgil's "Aeneid," but several years ago, Caesar's "De Bello Gallico" was added to it. In the words of Cheryl Lowe, "This changed everything." Before this change, Henle II was a great intro to Caesar because it didn't matter what lines you read. Now, if you're going to read Caesar, you might as well read the lines that are on the AP Exam. Therefore, the MP Plan is as follows:

    First-Fourth Form
    Henle II, Lessons 1-32 (with an MP Guide)
    An AP Caesar Text (with an MP Guide). The specific book we will use is by Mueller.

    We will write more about that Mueller text when we get closer to publishing a guide. For now, just know that Caesar being on the AP means that HENLE II IS NO LONGER A GOOD INTRODUCTORY TEXT FOR CAESAR, because it covers the wrong lines.

    With that in mind, here are the answers to your questions:

    1. Yes, one guide for Henle Lessons 1-32 and one guide for Caesar using the Mueller text

    2. Yes, but the second year of “only translation” will use Mueller, not Henle.

    3. The Henle II guide includes weekly quizzes and three tests. We have not yet finalized the structure of our guide for the Mueller text.

    4. While you could, we would not advise it. Students need another year of mastering syntax, and Henle’s exercises are perfect for this. In your other thread, you mentioned a year of “only translating” didn’t seem like enough. Believe us, it is! In Cheryl’s Caesar class that she is teaching this year at HLS, student complete about 30 lines a week, and that is pushing it! Translation is rewarding, but HARD. Do not rush it.

    (As an aside, Henle has about 2000 lines of Caesar. The AP Exam only covers 700, plus 700 of Virgil, so trying to cram Henle into a semester would not only require hours of work each day, but your son would be translating hundreds of lines that will not help him when he eventually takes the AP Exam.)

    5. Not sure yet. Again, our guide for Mueller is still in the early draft stages.

    To answer your question in your other post, Cheryl’s and my advice would be to skip Lingua Biblica and Lingua Angelica and instead spend a year on those lessons in Henle II. Your child will be able to cement all he learned in the Forms, master Latin syntax, and be able to confidently translate Caesar the following year. That will be more rewarding, and thus more “fun,” than a year with Lingua Biblica and Lingua Angelica, which will neither push him nor prepare him for Caesar.

    Does that answer all of your questions?
    Michael
    Memoria Press

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

      Ok- so help me out here as I am still confused. Homeschool students will not do the Caesar in Henle 2 and instead will use a different book. Online students WILL do the Caesar in Henle 2 and will NOT do the new Caesar text? Is that correct?

      Also- in my other post I must have communicated poorly. I never intended to spend a whole year on Lingua Biblica/Lingua Angelica. We are finishing up Fourth Form early this year (we ended up taking a bit over 4 1/2 years to do the whole Form sequence due to a new baby and my mother's heart surgery). I am looking to fill in the rest of 9th grade after we finish Fourth Form. We will finish Fourth Form in week 23 leaving 13 weeks (in our 36 week school year). I had originally planned to just call 9th grade Fourth Form and fill in the extra weeks with LB/LA and do Henle 2 in 10th. That was when I thought you did the whole book in one year including translations.

      So- let me gather some more information so I can then ask a new question about our particular circumstances.

      1. Am I correct that the online Latin sequence after Fourth Form is: Henle 2 (including translating the Caesar in Henle and not using the new book you mentioned), Henle 3, AP Latin?

      2. What exactly will be the "homeschool" sequence? So far I understand Henle 2 (without translating Caesar) on year, then a different Caesar translation book another year, then what? Henle 3? something else? how many years do you schedule between the new Caesar book and AP latin.
      Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
      DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
      DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
      DS, 21, chemistry major
      DS, 18, Physics major
      DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
      DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
      DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

        Originally posted by momgineer View Post
        Ok- so help me out here as I am still confused. Homeschool students will not do the Caesar in Henle 2 and instead will use a different book. Online students WILL do the Caesar in Henle 2 and will NOT do the new Caesar text? Is that correct?

        Also- in my other post I must have communicated poorly. I never intended to spend a whole year on Lingua Biblica/Lingua Angelica. We are finishing up Fourth Form early this year (we ended up taking a bit over 4 1/2 years to do the whole Form sequence due to a new baby and my mother's heart surgery). I am looking to fill in the rest of 9th grade after we finish Fourth Form. We will finish Fourth Form in week 23 leaving 13 weeks (in our 36 week school year). I had originally planned to just call 9th grade Fourth Form and fill in the extra weeks with LB/LA and do Henle 2 in 10th. That was when I thought you did the whole book in one year including translations.

        So- let me gather some more information so I can then ask a new question about our particular circumstances.

        1. Am I correct that the online Latin sequence after Fourth Form is: Henle 2 (including translating the Caesar in Henle and not using the new book you mentioned), Henle 3, AP Latin?

        2. What exactly will be the "homeschool" sequence? So far I understand Henle 2 (without translating Caesar) on year, then a different Caesar translation book another year, then what? Henle 3? something else? how many years do you schedule between the new Caesar book and AP latin.
        N.B. 2ND PARAGRAPH REWRITTEN TO CLARIFY WHAT HLS/MP PACKAGES DO VS. ONLINE ACADEMY.

        I spoke with Cheryl about your situation, and she wanted to point out that Henle II is hard. Caesar is hard. LB and LA are really enrichment, and your son is past the point of enrichment. Henle I (through 4F) has been teaching your son Caesar vocab and preparing him to read Caesar. She advises taking advantage of those remaining 13 weeks to start Henle II immediately. Because your son is older (9th/10th) he might be able to do all of the book in a year and 13 weeks. We can send you the old HLS syllabus that did Caesar in one year for you to use. Whatever path you end up taking, you can still start now. The beginning will be the same no matter what path you end up choosing. After your son finishes Henle II, he can then do Henle III or AP depending on where he is at at that time.

        The reason we do Henle II (lessons only) the 1st year and AP Caesar lines the 2nd year in our plans is because students do not need three years of Caesar. (They will be finishing 4F in 7th grade at HLS.) The online academy does exercises and translation from Henle II in one year because they have master teachers who have edited down the content and their students are generally older. In other words, HLS, other schools that teach Latin, the Online Academy, the homeschooler, all of them have different situations that require different paths. There will never be a one-size-fits-all approach.
        Last edited by Michael; 12-07-2015, 02:08 PM.
        Michael
        Memoria Press

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

          I appreciate all your help. Being a Latin novice, I need this guidance. I appreciate your insights because I realize that I did not fully understand the intensity of Henle 2. So, I have a new plan. Tell me what you think:

          Nick will finish up Fourth Form a little over half way through 9th grade (we will call 9th grade Latin 1 on his transcript) and will have 13 weeks to fill with Latin. We want him to finish Latin 2 (or Henle 2 or Caesar) by the end of 10th grade and be able to take either Henle 3 or a new MP pre-AP Latin course in 11th and then take AP Latin in 12th.

          With the last 13 weeks of 9th grade, we will cover lesson 1-16 in Henle 1 using the MP Henle 2 lesson plans and tests.

          In 10th grade, he will cover the remaining 16 lessons of Henle 2 taking two weeks per lesson following the MP Henle 2 lesson plan AND doing the related Caesar translations (which are not in the lesson plan)

          Does that sound like a good plan?

          I really want him to get to Henle 3 (or similar level course) for 11th grade. Thus I do not want to spend two full years on a Henle 2/Caesar course like I would if I followed the MP suggested plans of Henle 2 over one year and a second year on a different Caesar book. Since the online academy is satisfied with the Caesar taught in Henle 2 and does not use the new Caesar book, I think we will be fine to not use the new Caesar book since we plan to cover the Caesar in Henle 2 much like the online academy does (only we will take a full year on just lessons 17-32 so we will have a bit more time). I am thinking that since he will cover the Caesar needed for AP in the actual AP course, we are ok going this route.

          Another option might be to do lessons 1-16 to finish up 9th. Then do a semester of lessons 17-32 without the Caesar (so exactly following the MP lesson plans) and then spend the second semster of 10th grade doing half of the Caesar book MP uses following Henle 2. I'm not as fond of this idea because I would have to buy a new book and I'm not sure MP will have lesson plans for the new book when I need them.

          Thank you for taking the time to step me through all this. Without your help, I think I would have burned my son out by trying to cram too much in.
          Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
          DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
          DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
          DS, 21, chemistry major
          DS, 18, Physics major
          DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
          DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
          DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

            Originally posted by momgineer View Post
            I appreciate all your help. Being a Latin novice, I need this guidance. I appreciate your insights because I realize that I did not fully understand the intensity of Henle 2. So, I have a new plan. Tell me what you think:

            Nick will finish up Fourth Form a little over half way through 9th grade (we will call 9th grade Latin 1 on his transcript) and will have 13 weeks to fill with Latin. We want him to finish Latin 2 (or Henle 2 or Caesar) by the end of 10th grade and be able to take either Henle 3 or a new MP pre-AP Latin course in 11th and then take AP Latin in 12th.

            With the last 13 weeks of 9th grade, we will cover lesson 1-16 in Henle 1 using the MP Henle 2 lesson plans and tests.

            In 10th grade, he will cover the remaining 16 lessons of Henle 2 taking two weeks per lesson following the MP Henle 2 lesson plan AND doing the related Caesar translations (which are not in the lesson plan)

            Does that sound like a good plan?

            I really want him to get to Henle 3 (or similar level course) for 11th grade. Thus I do not want to spend two full years on a Henle 2/Caesar course like I would if I followed the MP suggested plans of Henle 2 over one year and a second year on a different Caesar book. Since the online academy is satisfied with the Caesar taught in Henle 2 and does not use the new Caesar book, I think we will be fine to not use the new Caesar book since we plan to cover the Caesar in Henle 2 much like the online academy does (only we will take a full year on just lessons 17-32 so we will have a bit more time). I am thinking that since he will cover the Caesar needed for AP in the actual AP course, we are ok going this route.

            Another option might be to do lessons 1-16 to finish up 9th. Then do a semester of lessons 17-32 without the Caesar (so exactly following the MP lesson plans) and then spend the second semster of 10th grade doing half of the Caesar book MP uses following Henle 2. I'm not as fond of this idea because I would have to buy a new book and I'm not sure MP will have lesson plans for the new book when I need them.

            Thank you for taking the time to step me through all this. Without your help, I think I would have burned my son out by trying to cram too much in.
            You're welcome! I think your plans sounds good. I would do the Caesar in Henle II as it is assigned, rather than doing all the lessons, then all the Caesar. Bonam fortunam to you and Nick!
            Michael
            Memoria Press

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

              Good point and that is actually what I intended. I figure he can spend two weeks on each lesson and I am thinking that one of those weeks can be doing the lesson plan assignments and the second week can be doing the corresponding Caesar translation. In reality, my son will figure out how to best divide all that up over the two weeks, but we will cover the translation as it is assigned in the textbook with each lesson.

              Thank you again. I am so excited to even get to this point. My oldest dropped Latin before finishing Henle 1 (this was before the Forms were out) and she switched to German. My next two boys went to public school for high school and they do not teach Latin. Now, my fourth is homeschooling high school like my oldest did and I am so happy that MP came out with the Forms. I am fully convinced that is why we have gotten as far through the grammar as we have. I am excited to finally be able to continue the Latin journey beyond grammar and into translation.
              Debbie- mom of 7, civil engineering grad, married to mechanical engineer
              DD, 25, BFA '17 graphic design and illustration
              DS, 23, BS '18 mechanical engineering
              DS, 21, chemistry major
              DS, 18, Physics major
              DD, 15, dyslexic, 10th grade customizednMP plus co-op
              DS, 12, super squirmy, possible dysgraphia, MP 7A
              DD, 6 , K- finally one who seems to like drawing and writing- first one since my oldest!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                Originally posted by momgineer View Post
                Good point and that is actually what I intended. I figure he can spend two weeks on each lesson and I am thinking that one of those weeks can be doing the lesson plan assignments and the second week can be doing the corresponding Caesar translation. In reality, my son will figure out how to best divide all that up over the two weeks, but we will cover the translation as it is assigned in the textbook with each lesson.

                Thank you again. I am so excited to even get to this point. My oldest dropped Latin before finishing Henle 1 (this was before the Forms were out) and she switched to German. My next two boys went to public school for high school and they do not teach Latin. Now, my fourth is homeschooling high school like my oldest did and I am so happy that MP came out with the Forms. I am fully convinced that is why we have gotten as far through the grammar as we have. I am excited to finally be able to continue the Latin journey beyond grammar and into translation.
                We're excited for you too!
                Michael
                Memoria Press

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                  Michael,
                  I have read this conversation and I think I am a bit confused. Are you saying that Henle II is not a good course on Caesar if a student will take the AP exam because...it covers too much of Caesar? I don't understand why that is problematic. Or are the lines that are on the AP exam not in the 2000 lines that are in Henle II?

                  I think I see you recommending Henle II, but then not recommending it too. So I will ask what we should do...my two oldest (9th grade and 6th) are finishing up Henle I this year. They both have plenty of time. I was planning on just following along...Henle 2, 3, 4....not good?

                  AMDG,
                  Sarah
                  2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
                  DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
                  DS, 16
                  DD, 14
                  DD, 12
                  DD, 10
                  DD, 7.5
                  DD, 5.5
                  +DS+
                  DS, 18 months

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                    Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                    Michael,
                    I have read this conversation and I think I am a bit confused. Are you saying that Henle II is not a good course on Caesar if a student will take the AP exam because...it covers too much of Caesar? I don't understand why that is problematic. Or are the lines that are on the AP exam not in the 2000 lines that are in Henle II?

                    I think I see you recommending Henle II, but then not recommending it too. So I will ask what we should do...my two oldest (9th grade and 6th) are finishing up Henle I this year. They both have plenty of time. I was planning on just following along...Henle 2, 3, 4....not good?

                    AMDG,
                    Sarah
                    The "problem" with Henle II is that it covers too much Caesar, which as you point out is not necessarily a problem. However, we would prefer that students focus on the lines that will appear on the AP Exam as they appear on the exam. (Henle II modifies the text for beginners.) We also don't want them to burn out translating Caesar too much. We're not trying to not recommend Henle II. Rather, we're trying to recommend Henle II for its grammar and syntax exercises, and to recommend using a different, AP-focused text for translating Caesar. If you follow the MP plans, then your two oldest will do as follows:

                    10th/7th Henle II, Lessons 1-32
                    11th/8th AP Caesar Lines (Mueller)

                    For 12th/9th, you may want to split your kids. Both could do Henle III (Cicero), or the then-9th grader could do Henle III while the senior does AP Latin for the final year. This is all just a rough outline, though. No need to set anything in stone this early.

                    Does this help?
                    Michael
                    Memoria Press

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                      Thank you, Michael, that does help clarify things.

                      Follow-up question then: what is the benefit of doing the AP Latin? I know this is far off, but seeing how quickly the years are going, in my world, this is right around the corner. I am still trying to figure out the reasoning behind "AP" for homeschoolers anyway....so why AP Latin?

                      The additional information there is that she would most likely go to a college that would allow her to keep going in Latin...does that change any suggestions?

                      AMDG,
                      Sarah
                      2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
                      DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
                      DS, 16
                      DD, 14
                      DD, 12
                      DD, 10
                      DD, 7.5
                      DD, 5.5
                      +DS+
                      DS, 18 months

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                        Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                        Thank you, Michael, that does help clarify things.

                        Follow-up question then: what is the benefit of doing the AP Latin? I know this is far off, but seeing how quickly the years are going, in my world, this is right around the corner. I am still trying to figure out the reasoning behind "AP" for homeschoolers anyway....so why AP Latin?

                        The additional information there is that she would most likely go to a college that would allow her to keep going in Latin...does that change any suggestions?

                        AMDG,
                        Sarah
                        Hi Sarah, I know, I'm not Michael but I thought I'd pop in here in response to the AP Latin query .... My kids have finished the AP Caesar materials from Bolchazy-Carducci publishers, which they define as being for High School & College usage. We have the student and teacher materials both, which was great for me, of Caesar's De Bello Gallico .... And now they're using the corresponding Vergil AP materials .... My teens have no intention to sit the AP exams: we use these programs to further their Latin studies, and have had an excellent experience thus far. So, for us, it isn't about earning college credit per se, but rather, just to continue with Latin studies using accessible materials that include teacher copies of workbooks and translations. Because while I did study Latin in High School, I never made it as far as Caesar and Vergil, and so am studying along with my kids, and definitely need the teacher books.
                        homeschooling mother to a 16yo boy & 18yo girl, both learning at the high school level, and an adult son whom I homeschooled all the way through. You are welcome to read more about our homeschooling life at my blog: link via my username. Please forgive any typos in my comments here! I'm disabled and can't always type clearly.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                          Thanks for that perspective, EllieCove! I think it is amazing that you are keeping up with them. It is something I hope to do with my youngest ones. Then it may be feasible . Good things to think about though!

                          AMDG,
                          Sarah

                          Edited for way too many exclamation points...trying to keep myself awake, I guess.
                          2019-2020 - 9th Year with MP
                          DD, 18, Homeschool grad; Art major/philosophy minor
                          DS, 16
                          DD, 14
                          DD, 12
                          DD, 10
                          DD, 7.5
                          DD, 5.5
                          +DS+
                          DS, 18 months

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                            Originally posted by KF2000 View Post
                            Thanks for that perspective, EllieCove! I think it is amazing that you are keeping up with them. It is something I hope to do with my youngest ones. Then it may be feasible . Good things to think about though!

                            AMDG,
                            Sarah

                            Edited for way too many exclamation points...trying to keep myself awake, I guess.
                            I'll just add to what EllieCove wrote that if you decide to take the AP Exam (for Latin or any subject), colleges may award college credit depending on the score one earns. That leads to faster graduation, quicker access to higher-level courses, and monetary savings.
                            Michael
                            Memoria Press

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Tell me more about the Henle 2 lesson plans please

                              I would just add that there is also an SAT Subject Test in Latin (as well as other subjects). I think the subject tests do not earn college credit, but, like the AP, serve to demonstrate achievement to admissions officers. The SAT subject test covers Latin more broadly than the AP exam, which is more specific in its requirements. I believe that Henle First and Second Year texts well prepare one for the SAT subject test, with perhaps just a little extra work (some basic knowledge of scansion of poetry). If you add in Henle Third and Fourth year, you would lack nothing in preparation for the SAT subject test. The SAT subject tests are considerably less expensive than the AP. It is good to think about these exams especially for the student's major and minor fields, but again there are many individual considerations. The colleges in which you are interested can give you more information about what they would like to see. With the SAT, the ACT, AP exams, SAT subject tests -- senior year gets very hectic and it is good to be selective (but that is a whole other topic).
                              Bonnie

                              Comment

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