VB 9th Grade Lit compared to MA

[HartFamily06]

I am busy trying to figure out my plan for next year for my daughter. I was originally planning to have her participate in VB for 9th Literature however I have since read that it may be helpful for her to take 9th Lit via MA as this course will help improve her writing skills (specifically essay writing) and a good compliment to MA High School Comp 1 (which I am planning for her to take.)

That considered, would any essay writing be encouraged via VB if we went that route? I find she writes so much better for people other than me, so while I know I could assign essays, it would be wonderful if she had outside encouragement.

Thanks in advance!

[Jen_NH]

I don't think essay writing is included with VB lit classes. (We have only utilized the Classical Studies and history classes.) VB is intended to be a discussion forum. If you are looking for outside guidance with writing, I would think that the MA would be the route to take.

[Nikkirxd]

I have mixed reviews on the essay writing portion of 9th grade literature with MA online. They do write a lot of essays. The essays are supposed to be in the Thesis statement - supporting paragraphs - conclusion format. I have two kids in the same class this year. They had not written many essays in this format prior to this year because they have been taking classical comp, which is different. I can say that the instruction on how to write the essays has been ok, but there isn't much of it since it is a literature class, not a composition class. The biggest issue is the time it takes to get the essays graded. It is taking two full months for the teacher to grade each essay. So, my kids had to turn in essay 3 before essay 2 was graded. Had they been given the feedback for essay 2 in a timely manner, their grades on essay 3 "hopefully" would have been better. I also find it very difficult to help them with these essays. The format is fine, but I am a scientist. Writing an argumentative thesis statement about a character in a fictional story is extremely difficult for me. So, they are getting Bs on papers that I have helped them with. (It's a tough class for Mom, lol!) So, I'm not saying it's a bad class. Actually, this is their favorite MA class this year because the teacher is engaging and they like the stories. Overall, it's a great class. Just don't expect timely or extensive feedback on the essays.

[Jen_NH]

I think it depends, once again, on the teacher with regard to the writing portion. My older son is in 10th grade lit this year. He has to write a paper at the end of each work they've studied. His particular teacher has the papers graded within a week to ten days, long before the next one is due. He also spent a good deal of time at the beginning of the year going over how to write an essay - how to write and introductory and concluding paragraph, as well as the body and how to use quotations for support. The teacher always gives a metric for how the essay will be graded: mechanics, content, etc. Our experience has been quite different. My one "complaint" is a lack of feedback. The comments are, "Good job," or "Great job," and there aren't any comments to help him improve, unlike in CC where there's loads of feedback, both positive and critical.

[Nikkirxd]

I think it depends, once again, on the teacher with regard to the writing portion. My older son is in 10th grade lit this year. He has to write a paper at the end of each work they've studied. His particular teacher has the papers graded within a week to ten days, long before the next one is due. He also spent a good deal of time at the beginning of the year going over how to write an essay - how to write and introductory and concluding paragraph, as well as the body and how to use quotations for support. The teacher always gives a metric for how the essay will be graded: mechanics, content, etc. Our experience has been quite different. My one "complaint" is a lack of feedback. The comments are, "Good job," or "Great job," and there aren't any comments to help him improve, unlike in CC where there's loads of feedback, both positive and critical.

I agree that it likely depends on the teacher. My same kids have Classical Studies III. They write the same style essays in that class, and are writing them the exact same way, and getting As. So, either one grader is too hard or one is too easy. Either way, it would have been nice to get some good instruction, or maybe a couple of sample essays on the class page to compare.

[momgineer]

We had the same experience as Nicole with 9th grade lit with the same teacher. Outstanding use of class time lectures. Appropriate essays assigned. He spent half a class before the first essay teaching how to write the essay. We also had delayed response on graded essays though. It’s hard to know what to improve if your previous essay is not graded before the next is due. It sounds like the 10th grade literature class has more essays and better instruction, perhaps.
It is much like any school. Some teaching is better than others. Some teachers grade harder than others. Some teachers want one type of essay and others want another. I do feel MP needs to have all language arts teachers together in one meeting and discuss how best to teach writing. Classical Composition is incredible at what it does. It does not, however, teach the kind of writing required in literature, Classical, and history classes. If those teachers are going to require “modern” writing, they need to also teach it. My son was able to adapt quickly, but he seems to have a gift with words. My older daughter would have crashed and burned.
I know it is hard with “a la carte” classes to have a consistent writing instruction. Some kids might take 10th lit online but not have had 9th lit online. Would be it too much to maybe consider a “how to write an essay for MA classes” short course over the summer? Otherwise, maybe teachers could plan to spend a bit more time teaching essays. Greek Tragedies was especially challenging. 12 essays a year with no instruction on how to write. Granted, he graded very easy so students weren’t penalized much for not knowing how to write well, but the down side of that is it’s hard to know how to improve. We actually have the same issue with HSC2 this year. My son is almost always getting 100 and no feedback. I get that he is meeting the rubric requirements for an A, but it would be nice to get some feedback on how to do even better. The AP Euro instructor is great about teaching how to write “AP style” (which is only ever useful when taking an AP test unfortunately 😂) and he grades strictly and gives good feedback. So we have had mixed experiences with writing assignments. Then again, I had two boys who went to a school and they had awesome teachers and so-so teachers as well when it comes to teaching writing, so that is typical of any school.

[Nikkirxd]

I like momgineer's idea of a summer course to teach essay writing. However, I think this could even be done as a recorded course. My kids would hate it if I tied them down to even a short course in the summer. I wonder if it could be taught maybe just in a lecture format with 4 or 5 lectures. Basic structure, how to write a thesis statement, how to support your argument, etc... Give several good and bad examples of each topic. This is something that could just be accessible on the MA site for anyone who is enrolled in any MA class, and they could go back and refer to it throughout the year. Thoughts?

[momgineer]

I like momgineer's idea of a summer course to teach essay writing. However, I think this could even be done as a recorded course. My kids would hate it if I tied them down to even a short course in the summer. I wonder if it could be taught maybe just in a lecture format with 4 or 5 lectures. Basic structure, how to write a thesis statement, how to support your argument, etc... Give several good and bad examples of each topic. This is something that could just be accessible on the MA site for anyone who is enrolled in any MA class, and they could go back and refer to it throughout the year. Thoughts?

love this idea! pschaeffer

[enbateau]

I vote for the 5-6 week summer intensive like is often done with real feedback and writing prompts open to middle school and up. I guarantee it will be waitlisted!

Jen_NH Can you PM me the MA teacher you had that good experience with?


FWIW, Rod & Staff English 8 Preparing for Usefulness (the grammar book) has a lot of what you're looking for when it comes to writing mechanics, paragraph development, editing. Here's a list from the table of contents:

Paragraph Unity and Topic Sentences
Achieving Paragraph Coherence
Methods of Paragraph Development (More...)
Proofreading Your Composition
Gathering Info About a Topic
Organizing Your Notes
Theme of a Story
Effective Style in a Story
Writing Effective Sentences: Unity and Coherence, Conciseness & Parallelism, Action, Emphasis, Variety (syntax)
Writing a Persuasive Argument
Writing a Descriptive Composition
Writing a Summary

The Core Skills Language Arts books also have a lot of untapped resources at the back when it comes to teaching the organization of writing (see Unit 5: Writing in grades 5-8).

[pschaeffer]

I like momgineer's idea of a summer course to teach essay writing. However, I think this could even be done as a recorded course. My kids would hate it if I tied them down to even a short course in the summer. I wonder if it could be taught maybe just in a lecture format with 4 or 5 lectures. Basic structure, how to write a thesis statement, how to support your argument, etc... Give several good and bad examples of each topic. This is something that could just be accessible on the MA site for anyone who is enrolled in any MA class, and they could go back and refer to it throughout the year. Thoughts?

We will put this on the list as a suggestion and see if we can make it happen. We are a bit down the road on planning summer classes, so it might be tough this year. We will see.

[MamaHill]

I vote for the 5-6 week summer intensive like is often done with real feedback and writing prompts open to middle school and up. I guarantee it will be waitlisted!

Jen_NH Can you PM me the MA teacher you had that good experience with?


FWIW, Rod & Staff English 8 Preparing for Usefulness (the grammar book) has a lot of what you're looking for when it comes to writing mechanics, paragraph development, editing. Here's a list from the table of contents:

Paragraph Unity and Topic Sentences
Achieving Paragraph Coherence
Methods of Paragraph Development (More...)
Proofreading Your Composition
Gathering Info About a Topic
Organizing Your Notes
Theme of a Story
Effective Style in a Story
Writing Effective Sentences: Unity and Coherence, Conciseness & Parallelism, Action, Emphasis, Variety (syntax)
Writing a Persuasive Argument
Writing a Descriptive Composition
Writing a Summary

The Core Skills Language Arts books also have a lot of untapped resources at the back when it comes to teaching the organization of writing (see Unit 5: Writing in grades 5-8).

I only require my children to go through Rod and Staff Grade 7, so it completely slipped my mind that Grade 8 is so full of writing instruction. I have it on my shelf, but we don't use it due to MPOA. I really appreciate you mentioning this, as it might be a good fit for my 8th grader who is in need of more essay-style writing.

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And just throwing this out there - what about a 5-6 week intensive at the beginning of the school year? I know that length of class is not typical during a school year, but that would be ideal in a multitude of ways. (It's at the beginning of the school year so kids are motivated to get started, real-time grading with a live class & teacher, it sets them up for success the rest of the school year to practice those writing skills across other content areas, etc.)

[Molly in SC]

We will put this on the list as a suggestion and see if we can make it happen. We are a bit down the road on planning summer classes, so it might be tough this year. We will see.

Just wanted to jump in and beg for this class as well. I would sign up my middle and high schooler in a heartbeat!

[Esther]

We will put this on the list as a suggestion and see if we can make it happen. We are a bit down the road on planning summer classes, so it might be tough this year. We will see.

I think it would have to follow the "Rhetorical Essay Writing Template" published in some of the 9th grade lit manuals, I think Beowulf?

I had to run a little essay boot camp for my kids with constant feedback to transition to a modern essay writing style from classical comp. But as Abigail Johnson pointed out to me at one point, the classical style is providing "tools for the toolbox" not something to be tossed away. You are writing an essay on Gawain, and then reaching into your toolbox to grab a Testimony or a Cause, etc.

[Esther]

Idea: meet for a few hours during teacher training this summer and bring on several veteran moms like momgineer , and get them all on the same page. You could stand up 5 sections or so of an Essay Jumpstart no problem the following week.

[momgineer]

Idea: meet for a few hours during teacher training this summer and bring on several veteran moms like momgineer , and get them all on the same page. You could stand up 5 sections or so of an Essay Jumpstart no problem the following week.

Since you tagged me- can you elaborate on what you are saying would be good to do during Sodalitas? Meet together and come up with what? Just brainstorm ideas we have used with our own kids?