Henle after Third Form??

[hermione310]

If the guide isn't available due to printing issues, it possible to have it as a digital download? I would pay for it in that format, esp. if it would otherwise be unavailable.

I would also pay for a digital download if a paper copy is unavailable.

[Bonnie]

Thank you, Bonnie, for filling in the gaps! I didn't even mention that this is your baby.

I actually have a question after looking over the guide yesterday, so I'll just ask it here. If people can't get everything you have assigned done in the days as you have scheduled them, can the material at the end of the year be skipped and they will still be able to move forward? (i.e., If all they can get done is the 32 lessons, is that sufficient?) I ask because this looks like a lot of material each day, and I'm afraid people will get behind and not know what to do! Or, should they get what they can do completed each day and move on to the next day even if they can't cover it all?

Tanya

Yes, they can still move on to the next year's work even if they only get through the 32 lessons and do not do the readings at year end. Somewhere in the guide, I say that, if they need to take more time on the lessons, it just means that they will do fewer reading days at the end of the year. The final is taken after the lessons and the two very short Civil War/death of Caesar readings -- before the year-end Caesar readings -- so the timing of the final won't complicate things.

Also, it may look like a lot, but everything in the first lesson is just a review of what they have already learned in Henle I or the Forms. Most of the notes in that first lesson just give advice on Latin word order or how Caesar specifically uses certain vocabulary words, which should help them, not slow them down, in their lessons.

I also marked quite a few readings throughout the lessons as "optional," and explain that students who need more time on the core lesson work can skip the optional readings, as they are not really essential in preparing to read Caesar's prose; these are usually short Scripture passages or poetry excerpts -- enriching, but not vital to read.

There are 160 days of work, plus 10 optional days for the Christian Latin section, so 170 days total. Some students may not want to do all the Christian Latin readings and could spend more time on the lessons. Students who go more slowly could always add a few more days -- or do some of the Caesar readings in the summer, before they go to more advanced Caesar.

Bonnie

[Kristi B]

I have been summoned!

My first answer, naturally, would be that sticking it out with Fourth Form Latin is the best idea. 4FL has the scope and sequence it does specifically to on-ramp people to Henle II and beyond. What you describe as disjointed is, admittedly, not as delightfully linear as most of the previous Forms, but that's because 4FL is very much cleaning out the corners of one's Latin grammar instead of tackling big central topics as before. The chief benefit of 4FL is its gentle familiarization with Henle; as some of the previous posts say, the use of Henle I for exercises in Fourth Form introduces students to the Henle process so that when they cross from the end of the Forms into the Henle program, their attention is less spent on acquainting themselves with a new way of doing things and more on new content.

However, if you are significantly concerned that 4FL is not your cup of tea, a jump to Henle is certainly possible; your landing point is the only question mark. I would recommend starting Henle I at Unit 6. We typically split up Henle I into Units 1-5 and Units 6-14 because that halfway point correlates strongly with the content of First-Second Form and Third-Fourth Form respectively. That means a student of Third Form could begin Henle I 6-14 and complete it in a year, which would neither accelerate nor decelerate your schedule since Fourth Form would supposedly take a year anyway. The first few lessons of Henle I 6-16 would be familiar, since they cover subjunctive verbs in Third Form, but subjunctives can always do with a bit of review; beyond that, it's mostly brand new content. (Besides, while the grammar content of the aforementioned halfway points of Henle I and the Forms is nearly identical, the vocabulary is not! What seems like backtracking grammar-wise still has its benefits in vocabulary and other categories.) After that, it's Henle II the next year, and so on.

I'm not as sanguine as some of the folks above me about jumping straight to Henle II. It is correct to say that there's a great deal of review in the early parts of Henle II, but in my experience recommending program switches to parents, the solution to a possible challenge is not a bigger challenge. If you're a jungle explorer and the bridge across the chasm (4FL) seems rickety, why try leaping across (to Henle II) when there's another bridge nearby (Henle I 6-14) that'll take the same amount of time to cross? I lean strongly toward taking the extra time to make sure you get it versus jumping ahead to reach for the highest heights. If your student is on track to finish Third Form this year and the natural next step is Fourth Form, combining the difficulties of switching to a new program AND of jumping a year ahead and treating review material as new material is a risk for which I don't see a commensurate reward.

- Jon

This is extremely helpful to me, as my daughter is struggling to complete Second Form - I don't think it is the content that is difficult, it is just dragging and she tends to take two weeks to finish a lesson instead of one. She is in eighth grade and I've been contemplating switching her to Henle 1 for ninth grade (maybe even starting now for the end of the school year) and using the new MP videos as well as the lesson plans. But do you recommend just sticking with the Forms instead?

[hermione310]

Hello.

I am attaching a sample lesson for you here: [ATTACH]n135802[/ATTACH]


Tanya

Just got done looking at this sample side-by-side with the existing lesson plans. The new plans look excellent! I love the detailed notes on history and word usage, and the suggestions to complete various sections orally. I am excited to see what's coming and am breathing a big sigh of relief. With plans like this, yes, I feel like we can tackle this at home. Thanks!

[Bonnie]

hermione310 That's great to hear. I think you will have no trouble with Henle II. You have the right idea about the notes; they should make the lessons easier. Students are not expected to reproduce the information in the abstract on tests, but simply use it to better understand what they are reading.

Bonnie

[jenniferjb]

Yes, they can still move on to the next year's work even if they only get through the 32 lessons and do not do the readings at year end. Somewhere in the guide, I say that, if they need to take more time on the lessons, it just means that they will do fewer reading days at the end of the year. The final is taken after the lessons and the two very short Civil War/death of Caesar readings -- before the year-end Caesar readings -- so the timing of the final won't complicate things.

Also, it may look like a lot, but everything in the first lesson is just a review of what they have already learned in Henle I or the Forms. Most of the notes in that first lesson just give advice on Latin word order or how Caesar specifically uses certain vocabulary words, which should help them, not slow them down, in their lessons.

I also marked quite a few readings throughout the lessons as "optional," and explain that students who need more time on the core lesson work can skip the optional readings, as they are not really essential in preparing to read Caesar's prose; these are usually short Scripture passages or poetry excerpts -- enriching, but not vital to read.

There are 160 days of work, plus 10 optional days for the Christian Latin section, so 170 days total. Some students may not want to do all the Christian Latin readings and could spend more time on the lessons. Students who go more slowly could always add a few more days -- or do some of the Caesar readings in the summer, before they go to more advanced Caesar.

Bonnie

So what is "the next year's work?" I am getting confused with the changes I see at MPOA and the differences that already existed between MPOA / HLS / MP Homeschool. Can you clarify what the next steps are and what needs to be accomplished before moving on to the next step?

[Bonnie]

jenniferjb I am only referring to the homeschool (non-MPOA) route. By next year's work, I mean the Advanced Caesar course, which is currently based on the Mueller text. The sequence is Henle II, Advanced Caesar (Mueller), and then typically Cicero or AP Latin. Once the student finishes the Henle II student guide, they will be prepared for the Advanced Caesar year. I cannot speak to the MPOA route.

The Advanced Caesar course covers the Caesar passages that are studied for the AP Exam. These are not the same as the Henle II reading passages. The advanced course readings are more complex, and the course covers the Latin in a more intensive way. Roman history, customs, and institutions are covered more extensively. The AP also recommends that the course include practice in "sight reading" other authors besides Caesar. So it is a wonderful opportunity for the student to pull together all their Latin knowledge and knowledge of Rome and Roman authors. It also frees the student, having mastered Caesar, to focus a bit more on Virgil's Aeneid in the year that they prepare for the AP Latin Exam.

Bonnie

[jenniferjb]

Ah yes, that is the missing piece at MPOA. They do not offer Mueller's Caesar - either you take Henle II with modified Caesar or you jump into Henle II with original Caesar. I do wish they offered Advanced Caesar, but I am excited to see the new Henle II materials. I am wondering if we can do it on our own. Is Mueller's easy to do at home? If not, are there plans to make it more at home friendly?

[Bonnie]

You can absolutely do the Henle II student guide on your own. That was the intent of writing it -- to help people at home use Henle's superb textbook. (And also to supply good tests for homeschoolers.) As for doing the Advanced Caesar readings with a more homeschool- friendly text, things are in the works.

Bonnie

[Mom2mthj]

Ah yes, that is the missing piece at MPOA. They do not offer Mueller's Caesar - either you take Henle II with modified Caesar or you jump into Henle II with original Caesar. I do wish they offered Advanced Caesar, but I am excited to see the new Henle II materials. I am wondering if we can do it on our own. Is Mueller's easy to do at home? If not, are there plans to make it more at home friendly?

The Mueller Caesar book is used in the AP Latin class. If you took an Advanced Caesar class with the intent of taking AP Latin later, you would be spending almost half the year repeating content.

[jenniferjb]

The Mueller Caesar book is used in the AP Latin class. If you took an Advanced Caesar class with the intent of taking AP Latin later, you would be spending almost half the year repeating content.

I wonder if that is new. I ordered the AP materials last year because my daughter was originally registered for the class and I only got Virgil. I see now that Caesar is on the booklist for next year.

[Mom2mthj]

I wonder if that is new. I ordered the AP materials last year because my daughter was originally registered for the class and I only got Virgil. I see now that Caesar is on the booklist for next year.

My daughter took AP Latin with MPOA in 2019-2020 and they worked in the Mueller Caesar book as well as the Virgil book. I don’t believe the AP Latin content has changed in quite awhile (the did drop AP Latin Literature awhile back). The Virgil book seems to have been written to specifically cover the AP Latin content. I haven’t looked at the Mueller book with the eye to whether it was written with the AP in mind, but everyone seems to use it for that purpose.

[jenniferjb]

Then clearly I just missed Mueller having been included. Thanks!

[Mom2mthj]

Then clearly I just missed Mueller having been included. Thanks!

Looking at the catalog it would lead you to believe that only Virgil is needed for AP Latin, but I seem to remember a set that you could buy if you linked through MPOA that included the Caesar book. Here it is from the MP main site under the Online Academy tab. https://www.memoriapress.com/curricu...nline-academy/