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    options for Traditional Logic

    Thinking about next year a bit early. We love our MPOA classes, but sometimes too many online classes at once isn't good. I'm trying to figure out which classes are worth it to take through MPOA and which we can get the same benefit from doing them on our own. Traditional Logic has three options, on our own with videos, self-paced, or MPOA. Does anyone have experience with more than one of these formats in order to be able to compare? It this class significantly more valuable in the MPOA format due to class discussions or teacher expertise? Thanks!
    Nicole - mom - Doctor of Pharmacy, UMKC 2002, M.S. Bioethics, 2020, Univ. of Mary.
    2021-2022 - 5th year homeschooling and with MP
    DS - 8th, 14 yo
    DS - 8th, 13 yo

    #2
    I don't have experience with the Logic classes within the MPOA, but in our local HLS Cottage School.

    It is HANDS down my sophomore's favorite class of all time.

    I would think that taking the class in community, with discussion, would be best.

    I'd love to hear others chime in as well.
    Plans for 2021-22

    Year 11 of homeschooling with MP

    DD1 - 26 - Small Business owner with 2 locations
    DD2 - 15 - 10th grade - HLS Cottage School/MPOA/True North Academy/Vita Beata - equestrian
    DS3 - 13 -6A Cottage School - soccer/tennis -dyslexia and dysgraphia
    DS4 - 13 - 6A Cottage School -soccer -auditory processing disorder
    DD5 - 9 - 4A, Cottage School/MPOA -equestrian
    DS6 - 7 - MPK - first time at the Cottage School this fall!

    Comment


      #3
      As someone who is currently stumbling through TL I at home, I recommend prioritizing MPOA for this one. Unless you already know the material, or are committed to learning it, and it's a lot to grasp if you're a busy mom. I hate to say anything negative, but...I haven't found the videos very helpful for this one. Just my personal experience. I think teacher expertise is the MPOA selling point here.
      Melanie
      2021-2022: 13th year homeschooling. 8th MP year.

      A, 12th grade: online classes with MPOA and TPS
      E, 10th grade: 10th grade core; math with MPOA, biology at co-op
      B, 7th grade: 7th grade core; math and comp with MPOA

      Comment


        #4
        My oldest two did TL1 at home and took TL2 at MPOA. The videos were dull, but I think they were redone recently so I can’t speak to the newest version or self paced. They both enjoyed having a class.
        Dorinda

        Plans for 2021-2022
        15th year homeschooling, 12th year with Memoria Press
        DD College Freshman
        DS 10th grade - Lukeion Latin and Greek, Vita Beata Greek Dramas
        DS 8th grade - Vita Beata Literature
        DS 3rd grade - Vita Beata Literature, Right Start F, First Form Latin

        Comment


          #5
          Nicole,

          What grade will your student be in for which you are considering TL I & II next year?

          You mentioned needing to prioritize online quantity and you may have more time to hold off on this if your student is younger. I personally like the Logic/Rhetoric sequence in 4 semesters over 9th and 10th grade, OR over 10th and 11th. They sit well atop completing the Latin Forms and having must of Classical Comp under your belt. Not everyone will hit them at that pacing, but they fit very well there as a 'next step' on the language side.

          These classes have a lighter workload and are very enjoyable with a good teacher and class discussion. For that reason, I think either an MPOA class or a small in home group (with a committed teacher) could be a good option there. My kids have also really enjoyed these courses and they cushioned some of the harder high school courses creating some balance.

          ​​​​​​HTH!
          Festina lentē,
          Jessica P

          2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
          DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
          DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
          DD 7th • HLN & Home
          DS 4th • HLN & Home
          Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

          Teaching TFL and co-directing @
          Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

          Comment


            #6
            Nerdmom Perhaps you could add your perspective since you have taught these in a small group?
            Festina lentē,
            Jessica P

            2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
            DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
            DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
            DD 7th • HLN & Home
            DS 4th • HLN & Home
            Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

            Teaching TFL and co-directing @
            Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

            Comment


              #7
              Three years ago I taught Traditional Logic I & II to a group of 10 students ranging from 7th to 11th grade. I attended the teacher training in the summer (which was immensely helpful!), and then I watched the videos each week before class. Occasionally if a student missed class, they'd watch the video instead. Unanimously they preferred class to the video.

              I only stayed a week or so ahead of the students, but we had a wonderful time. The students were very engaged, and enjoyed playing off each other's work. We would have races to see who could contrapose a statement fastest and other such things that kept it lively. We did a final project in which they had to present several syllogisms of various types on a controversial topic of their choosing (abortion, gun rights, vaccines, immigration, etc), including the logic of the opposing position.

              We finished the year with Socrates Meets Jesus - just read & discuss with no other assessment. Several of the students have remarked months/years later how much they enjoyed the Kreeft book.

              All ten of my students returned the next year for Material Logic & Rhetoric, and we started the sequence again this year with 7 new TL1&2 students. It has certainly been much easier to prepare for the second time around! The classes have been a lot of fun, and great community building as well.

              HTH!
              Amanda - Mama to three crazy boys, teacher at St. Dominic Latin (FFL, TFL, 4FL, Traditional Logic 1&2), Memoria College student

              2021-2022
              9th grade - a mix of MPOA, Vita Beata, Lukeion, and AOPS
              8th grade - 8M with modifications
              4th grade - 4A

              "Non nisi te, Domine. Non nisi te" - St. Thomas Aquinas

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks for all of this advice. My kids would both be in 9th grade, but I wasn't planning on the Material Logic / Rhetoric sequence until later. Maybe it would be best to put this off a year or so in order to have those back to back with TL 1 and 2. I'll have to reimagine the sequence of classes to see how that works. The problem I run into is that there are so many MPOA classes for them to take later, as in 11th-12th grade, especially when you count in government, economics, 2nd foreign language in addition to Latin, and also the proposed timing of the CS sequence.

                Let me ask a more direct question regarding timing. Would it be unwise to separate the Logic / Rhetoric sequence? So, for example, if the student takes TL 1 and 2 in 9th grade, but then skips a year and doesn't take ML / Rhetoric until 11th grade, is that reasonable?

                Thanks!
                Nicole - mom - Doctor of Pharmacy, UMKC 2002, M.S. Bioethics, 2020, Univ. of Mary.
                2021-2022 - 5th year homeschooling and with MP
                DS - 8th, 14 yo
                DS - 8th, 13 yo

                Comment


                  #9
                  My son did TL1 at home, TL2 the next year in the spring semester, took this year off because the schedule didn’t work, and hopes to do the rest next year. The benefit to ML/Rhetoric in one year is they are semester classes that are typically scheduled in the same time slot.
                  Dorinda

                  Plans for 2021-2022
                  15th year homeschooling, 12th year with Memoria Press
                  DD College Freshman
                  DS 10th grade - Lukeion Latin and Greek, Vita Beata Greek Dramas
                  DS 8th grade - Vita Beata Literature
                  DS 3rd grade - Vita Beata Literature, Right Start F, First Form Latin

                  Comment


                    #10
                    We are just finishing up Traditional Logic on our own. We have one son, so to make a 'class' my husband and I are also taking it. I even purchased books and workbooks for us. The first half (TL 1) I think you could easily do on your own. The second (TL 2) is definitely more challenging especially toward the latter part of the book. That part, however, is also the most fun!! The syllogism that you are asked to analyze spark myriad interesting conversations!! If you don't feel like you have the space to engage with your student in that type of discussion, then I would recommend as others have that a having a group of peers to discuss with would be the way to go!
                    Kristi
                    DS 14 (9th grade)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      kristijoy108 That's brilliant!
                      Festina lentē,
                      Jessica P

                      2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                      DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                      DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                      DD 7th • HLN & Home
                      DS 4th • HLN & Home
                      Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

                      Teaching TFL and co-directing @
                      Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hello.

                        At HLS, we do Traditional Logic and Material Logic in 9th grade and don't do Rhetoric until 12th grade, so it's fine to spread them out!

                        Tanya

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I do have a question though for those of you who have done our Rhetoric program. Do you do the Traditional Logic and Latin reviews in the book? Or should we drop them out of there?

                          Tanya

                          Comment


                            #14
                            We aren’t there yet, but I know my particular kids would need the Traditional Logic reviews.
                            The Older Boys:
                            J- 6/96: (CAPD/mild ASD) working/living on his own
                            S- 11/98: Jan. 2022- BYU-I accounting major

                            The Middle Boys:
                            G- 4/04 (mild ASD/mild intellectual delay)
                            D- 5/05 (mild processing issues)

                            The Princess:
                            F- 7/08

                            The Youngest Boy:
                            M- 9/16

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by tanya View Post
                              I do have a question though for those of you who have done our Rhetoric program. Do you do the Traditional Logic and Latin reviews in the book? Or should we drop them out of there?

                              Tanya
                              I can check with our teacher (and my daughter) as they go through Rhetoric this next semester. It's been two years since we did it last at HLN. I'm guessing TL reviews, yes, and Latin reviews, no. It's difficult to have a Rhetoric teacher and students all at that workable Latin level if you are not a full time program. But things can always be skipped, so if it's valuable for some it may be worth leaving in. Since we do all of it in back to back years, they might not even need the TL reviews! I'll have to investigate some.
                              Festina lentē,
                              Jessica P

                              2021-2022 • 12th year HSing • 10th year MP
                              DS 12th • HLN, Latin online, DE math/sci - Headed to Hillsdale College next fall
                              DD 10th • HLN, Latin online
                              DD 7th • HLN & Home
                              DS 4th • HLN & Home
                              Me • Memoria College, this summer: MPOA Fourth Form for Adults

                              Teaching TFL and co-directing @
                              Highlands Latin Nashville Cottage School, est. 2016

                              Comment

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